KVR :: Effects » Waves NLS Non-Linear Summer released [View Original Topic]
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b-pole - Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:13 am
Dear fellows,
NLS Non-Linear Summer is released.
Quote:
http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=12015
I am waiting for the first feedbacks.
Best,
b-pole
eytanmich123 - Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:55 am
Is it already summer ??
Umm.. I thought it is spring now...
Bronto Scorpio - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:04 am
eytanmich123 wrote:
Is it already summer ??
Umm.. I thought it is spring now...
Umm.. I thought it is spring now...
Max@WavesUniverse - Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:23 am
Gary has updated the Waves Universe site to include the NLS and we now offer it at a discounted rate. You can find our release post here:
Waves Release NLS Non-Linear Summer
the link will provide additional information and links to our NLS page and Members Plugins page.
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:12 am
I'm trying to grab the demo, but Waves's site is acting up. Guess everyone's clogging up the lines with cloud registrations.
Question: has anyone demoed anything while using an older version of Waves? I'm running V8 here at work, and I assume the cloud demo registration will just exist alongside the V8/iLok'd stuff.
Max@WavesUniverse - Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:25 am
I think that's how it works bduffy, with the license cloud demo existing along side the iLok/V8 stuff but not interacting. I've read several forums stating that this is the case.
Also for everyone who is having problems downloading the demo, a Waves Universe patron just sent in a youtube link of him trying out the NLS. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOy5koXpSwk&feature=youtu.be
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:41 am
Hey, thanks for the info, Max! I've managed to get the V9 installer, so here goes...
(watching video now too)
penguinfromdeep - Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:46 am
I'm waiting for some feedbacks too ... Is it better than my beloved VCC? Oh my god, that would be nasty ... I would have to fork out for this! But I'm a bit skeptical so far..
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:01 am
penguinfromdeep wrote:
I'm waiting for some feedbacks too ... Is it better than my beloved VCC? Oh my god, that would be nasty ... I would have to fork out for this! But I'm a bit skeptical so far..
I wouldn't worry about it too much. I mean, what qualifies as "better" in this console emu race? I wonder...
rhythmtechnologies - Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:12 am
just trying it the last hour. its quite nice, each model is a little more coloured than VCC which is nice in the right places. may not be as deep as the trident and rctube VCC models but it holds it own definitly.
Compyfox - Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:13 am
To those interested and not wanting to deep-click through all pages.
Native is 249USD, TDM is 349USD (a joke in direct comparision, usually TDM costs twice as much). Add to that the 10% discount from WavesUniverse.
Unfortunately, out of my pricerange atm.
EDIT:
Just took at short peak at the Youtube video. And despite the fact that it's not an ideal representation, it's not an ideal representation.
Reason:
- Consoles are WAY TOO MUCH overdriven
- SSD's VCC Drive doesn't "drive" the signal into saturation as in "input gain boost" but adds a different flavor to the whole set.
- different consoles (builts) and therefore different outcome
The last words he was saying in the video were right: you can't compare them. Each do their own thing. Though I personally think that "overdriving" the console does more harm than good. I mean... hello? The Nemo sounds as if it messes with the phase and the Mike (obviously TG from the looks of the poties) shreds stuff to sh*t if overdriven too much.
This is not a demo how I expect it, so the YT comment "Thank you for the effort! Great demo!" is IMO a bit nonsense. Thanks for the efforts anyway.
Price/Feature wise I say SSD is a bit more fair considering that they offer more consoles for your buck (and more to come - eventually) while Waves only has 3 for the time being. But the anti USB-key fraction might like Waves cloud approach compared to SSD's iLok2.
It's up to your(!) ears what's best for your workflow.
Lenticular - Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:37 am
Seems to be working fine here.
So far Hedge's 'Mike' EMI console emu is sounding nice.
This will supplement Slate's VCC nicely.
Sequent - Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:02 am
I was also curious about how this compares to VCC. Glad to know that (apparently) it isn't a game changer.
I've been saving up for the SSL collection, which seems to work very nicely with VCC. I read in a post somewhere (can't remember exactly where atm) that SSL complements VCC very well, and so far, I have found that to be true! VCC and SSL seem to make a nice combo.
So far, I guess I'm with Compyfox... what I like about VCC is that it's subtle.
But, if I didn't have VCC already, I would be looking more closely at the Summer. Will definitely keep it on the backburner for maybe getting later at some point. It's good to see more items like this becoming available and to see different developers' takes on it.
MFXxx - Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:33 pm
Sequent wrote:
I was also curious about how this compares to VCC. Glad to know that (apparently) it isn't a game changer.
I've been saving up for the SSL collection, which seems to work very nicely with VCC. I read in a post somewhere (can't remember exactly where atm) that SSL complements VCC very well, and so far, I have found that to be true! VCC and SSL seem to make a nice combo.
So far, I guess I'm with Compyfox... what I like about VCC is that it's subtle.
But, if I didn't have VCC already, I would be looking more closely at the Summer. Will definitely keep it on the backburner for maybe getting later at some point. It's good to see more items like this becoming available and to see different developers' takes on it.
I've been saving up for the SSL collection, which seems to work very nicely with VCC. I read in a post somewhere (can't remember exactly where atm) that SSL complements VCC very well, and so far, I have found that to be true! VCC and SSL seem to make a nice combo.
So far, I guess I'm with Compyfox... what I like about VCC is that it's subtle.
But, if I didn't have VCC already, I would be looking more closely at the Summer. Will definitely keep it on the backburner for maybe getting later at some point. It's good to see more items like this becoming available and to see different developers' takes on it.
What I like about VCC is the way it polishes my turd and the more VCC I add the more the turd sounds more appealing to my ears
In all honestly you are encompassing my thoughts entirely, recently WUP'd to V9 and can't justify going to mercury upgrade with a $200 discount, however, I have been heavily considering SSL to compliment VCC. Currently use Renaissance Pack along with sknotes Strip2 (of which I am informed the Bus2 x64 is due soon) and I like using on selecting groups to tweak 'a sound' or instrument.
Decisions, decisions....
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:40 pm
Not sure what to make of NLS so far. Because they recommend you're supposed to instantiate each insert fresh from the plug-in menu (as opposed to copying), it can be quite a bitch to get all your inserts going in a full project*.
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
@midnight - Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:06 pm
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
Lenticular - Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:46 pm
bduffy wrote:
Not sure what to make of NLS so far. Because they recommend you're supposed to instantiate each insert fresh from the plug-in menu (as opposed to copying), it can be quite a bitch to get all your inserts going in a full project*.
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
A fresh insert is necessary to use a different channel for each instance. You could click+drag an instance to another fx bin but it will use that same channel.
If you insert a new instance in X1 it automatically goes to the next open channel.
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:51 pm
Lenticular wrote:
bduffy wrote:
Not sure what to make of NLS so far. Because they recommend you're supposed to instantiate each insert fresh from the plug-in menu (as opposed to copying), it can be quite a bitch to get all your inserts going in a full project*.
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
A fresh insert is necessary to use a different channel for each instance. You could click+drag an instance to another fx bin but it will use that same channel.
If you insert a new instance in X1 it automatically goes to the next open channel.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying: you can't click-drag to another channel, or that instance of NLS uses the identical channel modeling.
Is Sonar different? Not sure what your point is.
daxliniere - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:13 pm
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I honestly believe the exact opposite of that statement is true. RBass/MaxxBass are probably the only exceptions.
bezusheist - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:14 pm
so how's the aliasing...?
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:15 pm
daxliniere wrote:
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I honestly believe the exact opposite of that statement is true. RBass/MaxxBass are probably the only exceptions.
That was pretty troll-y. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between.
daxliniere - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:21 pm
bduffy wrote:
daxliniere wrote:
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I honestly believe the exact opposite of that statement is true. RBass/MaxxBass are probably the only exceptions.
That was pretty troll-y. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between.
I just think that with the quality of product available from the likes of FabFilter, PSP Audioware, UAD, Voxengo, Bootsy and the plethora of other small developers, Waves' products are pretty poor by comparison.
Of course there's a lot of opinion involved, but RBass, RVox and Vocal Rider are the only plugins I'm aware of that aren't outdone by another product.
Lenticular - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:25 pm
bduffy wrote:
Lenticular wrote:
bduffy wrote:
Not sure what to make of NLS so far. Because they recommend you're supposed to instantiate each insert fresh from the plug-in menu (as opposed to copying), it can be quite a bitch to get all your inserts going in a full project*.
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
A fresh insert is necessary to use a different channel for each instance. You could click+drag an instance to another fx bin but it will use that same channel.
If you insert a new instance in X1 it automatically goes to the next open channel.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying: you can't click-drag to another channel, or that instance of NLS uses the identical channel modeling.
Is Sonar different? Not sure what your point is.
That's what I meant, you can insert multiple instances with click+drag but it won't go to the next open channel.
I also notice a bit of strange behavior in X1. It doesn't always go to the next open channel, doesn't correct itself if you delete instances either. I have to purge it by closing/re-opening the project.
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:28 pm
daxliniere wrote:
bduffy wrote:
daxliniere wrote:
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I honestly believe the exact opposite of that statement is true. RBass/MaxxBass are probably the only exceptions.
That was pretty troll-y. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between.
I just think that with the quality of product available from the likes of FabFilter, PSP Audioware, UAD, Voxengo, Bootsy and the plethora of other small developers, Waves' products are a pretty poor comparison.
Of course there's a lot of opinion involved, but RBass, RVox and Vocal Rider are the only plugins I'm aware of that aren't outdone by another product.
Sorry, looking back at that, I meant that the original Waves-fanboy poster was being (perhaps unwittingly?) troll-y. I just typed that and ran off to a meeting.
Yeah, well, it's just very subjective. The Fabfilter stuff is very different, too, and just wouldn't jibe with some people (not me, I love them). But I know what you mean. (They're also very expensive, a charge often levied against Waves.)
As a committed Waves user, I just find they bring a certain reliability and level of quality to their plugins that keeps me coming back. But of course, Fabfilter and other companies have superior offerings in some categories, that's why I don't use only Waves!
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:29 pm
Lenticular wrote:
bduffy wrote:
Lenticular wrote:
bduffy wrote:
Not sure what to make of NLS so far. Because they recommend you're supposed to instantiate each insert fresh from the plug-in menu (as opposed to copying), it can be quite a bitch to get all your inserts going in a full project*.
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
From playing around (still need to find a good project to properly level and use this with), I haven't heard anything amazing yet, but it seems very subtle at lower levels. The first "Spike" (SSL) emu gets dirty quickly if pushed, making a "grumbly" sort of distortion that I would avoid using. "Mike" sounds a little more mid-low, and the Nevo algo sounded a little sweeter on top. But need to play with it more.
*They said you can insert multiple instances of the plug-in in Cubase at once my holding down alt/option+shift, but that didn't work for me...
A fresh insert is necessary to use a different channel for each instance. You could click+drag an instance to another fx bin but it will use that same channel.
If you insert a new instance in X1 it automatically goes to the next open channel.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying: you can't click-drag to another channel, or that instance of NLS uses the identical channel modeling.
Is Sonar different? Not sure what your point is.
That's what I meant, you can insert multiple instances with click+drag but it won't go to the next open channel.
I also notice a bit of strange behavior in X1. It doesn't always go to the next open channel, doesn't correct itself if you delete instances either. I have to purge it by closing/re-opening the project.
How do you know if it's going to the next open channel?
@midnight - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:31 pm
bduffy wrote:
daxliniere wrote:
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I honestly believe the exact opposite of that statement is true. RBass/MaxxBass are probably the only exceptions.
That was pretty troll-y. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between.
It was pretty troll-y sounding but it is my honest opinion.
I think the Waves versions of the SSL, API, 1176, and LA2A sound better than UA's or Softube's. I also think their tape sims sound better than the UAD, I think they overdrive is more pleasant and just sound "tapier" even if at the expense of complete authenticity. Their Puigchild compressor has enough love in the industry that Waves made a hardware version of it. The company obviously does something right when it comes to signal processing.
bduffy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:33 pm
@midnight wrote:
bduffy wrote:
daxliniere wrote:
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I honestly believe the exact opposite of that statement is true. RBass/MaxxBass are probably the only exceptions.
That was pretty troll-y. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between.
It was pretty troll-y sounding but it is my honest opinion.
I think the Waves versions of the SSL, API, 1176, and LA2A sound better than UA's or Softube's. I also think their tape sims sound better than the UAD, I think they overdrive is more pleasant and just sound "tapier" even if at the expense of complete authenticity. Their Puigchild compressor has enough love in the industry that Waves made a hardware version of it. The company obviously does something right when it comes to signal processing.
Hey man, you're preaching to the choir. I'm just saying: saying that Waves does everything better than everyone else around KVR will start a flame war faster than gasoline.
daxliniere - Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:35 pm
bduffy wrote:
daxliniere wrote:
bduffy wrote:
daxliniere wrote:
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I honestly believe the exact opposite of that statement is true. RBass/MaxxBass are probably the only exceptions.
That was pretty troll-y. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between.
I just think that with the quality of product available from the likes of FabFilter, PSP Audioware, UAD, Voxengo, Bootsy and the plethora of other small developers, Waves' products are a pretty poor comparison.
Of course there's a lot of opinion involved, but RBass, RVox and Vocal Rider are the only plugins I'm aware of that aren't outdone by another product.
Sorry, looking back at that, I meant that the original Waves-fanboy poster was being (perhaps unwittingly?) troll-y. I just typed that and ran off to a meeting.
Yeah, well, it's just very subjective. The Fabfilter stuff is very different, too, and just wouldn't jibe with some people (not me, I love them). But I know what you mean. (They're also very expensive, a charge often levied against Waves.)
As a committed Waves user, I just find they bring a certain reliability and level of quality to their plugins that keeps me coming back. But of course, Fabfilter and other companies have superior offerings in some categories, that's why I don't use only Waves!
Yep, well said, mate.
Lenticular - Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:05 pm
bduffy wrote:
How do you know if it's going to the next open channel?
Top of the channel, where presets A/B it will have the console name & number
visible. ( A: Spike 01, you can also use the forward/ back arrows to move through channels quickly)
It advances every time you insert an instance only it doesn't always do it sequentially & will skip channels.
TheoM - Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:02 pm
daxliniere wrote:
bduffy wrote:
daxliniere wrote:
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I honestly believe the exact opposite of that statement is true. RBass/MaxxBass are probably the only exceptions.
That was pretty troll-y. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between.
I just think that with the quality of product available from the likes of FabFilter, PSP Audioware, UAD, Voxengo, Bootsy and the plethora of other small developers, Waves' products are pretty poor by comparison.
Of course there's a lot of opinion involved, but RBass, RVox and Vocal Rider are the only plugins I'm aware of that aren't outdone by another product.
well THAT'S not true, vocal rider simply doesn't work.
The melda auto volume absolutely annihilates it and makes it look like a first draught from the 80's of what a potential plug in might do if it worked.
Mate i am sitting here with a test file made specifically for riding plugins and vocal rider does barely anything even at the most extreme settings. I used to think i was crazy but other reports are popping up that i am indeed correct.
expensive tripe. (and i am a waves fan overall i would say, maybe 50% of their stuff i like) lightsfadelow - Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:09 pm
We are digressing.
One thing I am disappointed about is that Waves NLS (stands for Non Linear Summing) doesn't actually do the summing. It is just another coloration plugin like VCC. Seems like stripbus is the only plugin that actually communicates between channels (while it doesn't actually bypass the daw's summing it comes pretty close to modeling a console's behavior in a way no other plugin does.
I haven't demoed it yet but I suspect that I have enough saturation, coloration, character plugs already.
hibidy - Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:32 pm
This is just an in as I have no idea wtf this is and want to understand it......nothing to see here........move along.......
xamido - Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:17 pm
Lol, that's also the impression i got from the demo. I have no idea what it does. I try to bypass and enable it while the track is playing and yet i don't hear any major differences.
xamido - Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:17 pm
Sorry, double post
daxliniere - Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:51 pm
ttoz wrote:
The melda auto volume absolutely annihilates [Waves Vocal Rider] and makes it look like a first draught from the 80's of what a potential plug in might do if it worked.
Hey TTOZ,
That's interesting! I was wishing that WVR's gain riding could be slowed down more than the slow setting. I tested MAutoVolume and had no luck with it. It just seemed to pump like crazy.
Having said that, I've always found the Melda plugins' UI unintuitive.
TheoM - Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:35 am
it does pump, if you want it perfectly even at extreme settings.. but it can be avoided and still do a smoother job than vocal rider..
daxliniere - Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:39 am
ttoz wrote:
it does pump, if you want it perfectly even at extreme settings.. but it can be avoided and still do a smoother job than vocal rider..
Cool, I'll have to give it another try.
Cheers TTOZ!
yl - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:44 am
lightsfadelow wrote:
We are digressing.
One thing I am disappointed about is that Waves NLS (stands for Non Linear Summing) doesn't actually do the summing. It is just another coloration plugin like VCC.
One thing I am disappointed about is that Waves NLS (stands for Non Linear Summing) doesn't actually do the summing. It is just another coloration plugin like VCC.
what ? I thought you can route to "vca" ?
that sounds like summing to me.. what am I missing ?
the dude with the videos didn't even check the summing feature..
only the preamp clipping/saturation options.. (which are like vcc)
afaik the concept here is to route the individual strips to the summing 8 vca(groups) buss
still waiting for someone to properly test it...
daxliniere - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:48 am
[quote="yl"]
lightsfadelow wrote:
afaik the concept here is to route the individual strips to the summing 8 vca(groups) buss
Oh, well I missed that bit. Maybe I will give it a try after all. Could be interesting.
bishop666 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:48 am
The "VCA" is just a remote control for the individual plugin instances. It does not change the routing or summing of your daw.
Waves NLS = saturation + fader + remote control of the plugin suite
(no routing)
3ee - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:53 am
the release of Waves NLS made me buy Sonimus Satson...
EDIT: I'm a bit confused, I don't think I necessarily need it since I have a decent tape plugin on buses. hmm
yl - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:59 am
so why does the guy say ... you can route (for instance) a ssl channel through a emi summing ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5E35Jg27eE
http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=12023
"you can bus it to either the standard bussing in your session..or you can route it to 1 of 8 vca subgroups.."
they lie ?!
bishop666 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:03 am
yl wrote:
so why does the guy say ... you can route (for instance) a ssl channel through a emi summing ?
"you can bus it to either the standard bussing in your session..or you can route it to 1 of 8 vca subgroups.."
they lie ?!
"you can bus it to either the standard bussing in your session..or you can route it to 1 of 8 vca subgroups.."
they lie ?!
He doesn't lie
He talks about a bus summing "flavour" And that's correct!
(Make a test: Insert a fader plugin after the waves NLS and mute the track via the fader plugin -> no audio from that channel reaches the "summing" plugin
) yl - Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:05 am
so the "summing bus flavour".. it's "applied" to the individual channels rather than routing it through ?
I don't get it..
bishop666 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:09 am
yl wrote:
so the "summing bus flavour".. it's "applied" to the individual channels rather than routing it through ?
I don't get it..
I don't get it..
You get 2 independent saturation plugins. But you can remotly control their buttons/knobs/faders. That's all.
There is no secret/magic/additional routing.
yl - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:24 am
disappointing !
and the term 'non linear summer' for the plugin is misleading
http://waves.com/
bishop666 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:37 am
yl wrote:
Give the plugin a try! Maybe it can add something you like, although it doesn't do "real summing"
penguinfromdeep - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:40 am
I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...
yl - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:41 am
I DID ! and I like !
but I think the name of the plugin is wrong
bishop666 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:46 am
penguinfromdeep wrote:
I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...
Doesn't harrison's Mixbus do that: more than just digital summing?
- Maybe DAW developers should take a look how (and if) their daws could be opened for alternative summing algos. (Does this lead to better results in the end???)
yl - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:54 am
bishop666 wrote:
- Maybe DAW developers should take a look how (and if) their daws could be opened for alternative summing algos. (Does this lead to better results in the end???)
that's what I initially thought NLS brings to the table !
I wonder where I got that idea ?
that would be swell...
(I think PropellerHead have a 'modeled' mixer in place no ?)
aMUSEd - Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:02 am
How can you "model" a specific example of a certain product? (Mike Hedge's console etc)I mean I can see how you can model the product itself by using some sort of circuit modelling but every instance of that product should still have the same circuits as the others and I can't see how you could model to the level of detail that capture specific differences that precisely - unless they are using IR's perhaps?
yl - Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:07 am
I think waves use IR's to analyze this (and all their emulation) stuff..
what (I think) they modeled here are the gain stages harmonic response..
at different volumes/freqs..
bezusheist - Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:53 am
gimmick |ˈgimik|
noun
a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
sadkin - Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:55 am
I have been excited about this - yet, i am not sure how i'll proceed as I have been surprisingly pleased with Satson.
Between that, UA Studer and character comps and color EQ's, I am getting a lot of that analog feel these days - I have, in some cases, 'over done it' and it took a couple try's to figure out that 'more simulated analog feel' does not make a sound or mix necessarily better, actually, I have just as often found the contrary. In fact, it has gotten to the point that I preferred Satson over Stripbus because I liked that Satson forced me to be mild due to its limited options - yes, you can drive the channel, but i try to refrain. My mixes sound just a little better, greater depth with satson on every channel (untouched) and on buss sums. Adding a console emu with 'more' color' and modeled circuits with such pedigree is surely tempting but I am getting to a place where I am starting to get the sounds i've always wanted without having to be recording and mixing at Air studios, ya know?
still, curious and it looks frickin amazing!
AKJ - Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:14 am
Non-Linear Summer = non-sense plugin
Captain - Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:43 am
When discussing this subject some time ago in another thread, someone convinced me that the actual summing is always a straightforward linear process, be it analog, digital, or whatever. What we perceive as "analog" or "warmth" or whatever is actually done separately on individual channels (plus the master bus after mixing), and there's never anything special in how individual channels are mixed (summed) together. Or that's how I understood it.
So, which way is it?
3ee - Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:59 am
AKJ wrote:
Non-Linear Summer = non-sense plugin
I don't think that's entirely true.. however they are asking way too much for this kind of plugins imo! ...and they will probably sell enough as many people who don't really understand why their mix doesn't get any better will bet that getting these will kinda "mix for them"
For the price you should be able to get a good eq, compressor and saturation device and learn how to better use them instead... or at least to mimic what these tools are doing just for fun.
if one's really pretentious, they can get a good multi-band comp and/or saturation device as well ..that's basically it!
unless these tools have some sort of "magical powers" ask Santa or the Easter Bunny to get them for you! 
Compyfox - Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:29 am
@midnight wrote:
Waves always seems to top what other companies do with their plugins, I'm sure this will be no different.
I'm not too sure on that end. You said that you prefer Waves over UAD and Softube. I pretty much go the other way due to several reasons. One being that Waves more than often "overshoots".
Here in example of NLS, it's pumping way too much if driven hard (and by that, I mean REALLY hard). This is something I definitely do not prefer on any console I'm using.
Then again, WAves is like Softube, UAD, Native Instruments, IKM, Nomad Factory and who else is out there - they modeled equipment they had at their(!) exposal. And since each hardware device sounds unique in some sort of way, you're bound to hear differences.
Alessandro Boschi (Nebula Presets) tried to evade all that. He moded his own consoles to work more flat and therefore cleaner than say the SSL console Waves or even Slate had to work with. You can not compare them 1:1 - but you can find your personal preference.
With the TG console, the RCA Tube and the Trident it's a bit different. Not many of them were built actually, but there are plenty of SSL's and Neve's. It's like choosing the right tie for your banquet.
lightsfadelow wrote:
One thing I am disappointed about is that Waves NLS (stands for Non Linear Summing) doesn't actually do the summing. It is just another coloration plugin like VCC. Seems like stripbus is the only plugin that actually communicates between channels (while it doesn't actually bypass the daw's summing it comes pretty close to modeling a console's behavior in a way no other plugin does.
Not quiet true actually, and not really wrong either.
Console plugins like VCC, NLS and SATSON do "sum" the audio signal like an analog console would do "in theory". It not only adds saturation, but also "bleeds" the mixed channels together (crosstalk).
StripBus lies on a whole different ballpark. This plugin can be considered an "own mixing console". The channels interact depending on how much they overload, but they don't necessarily bleed with each other. That is for STRIPbus at least. stripBUS is just a master bus compressor.
It's all in the details.
VCC, NLS, SATSON, CS1V - they all offer channel based saturation and connection of the settings (grouping). VCC can even be controlled via the bus plugin, the same seems to apply for NLS.
Which one is superior and which one is not really (really!) depends on your wanted sound and your workflow.
There is one thing that all of these summing and console type plugins do nowadays: they let us rethink how to properly mix again. They teach us how to gain stage, how to measure in, how to mix while not overdoing sh*t. And here, Slate VCC was one of the forerunners.
And there is another advantage of not going for "one" device only: mix and match. I still catch myself using VCC with PODfarm (Modern Preamp, which is "modeled after" an Avalon) or even Nebula ACQUA just to get things rolling. With SoundToys recent Little Radiator release (an ANTEC preamp!), Nomad Factory ALL-TECH EQ and/or Pultec plus maybe Waves NLS (TG console) you can in theory mimic a massively enhanced EMI TG12345 transfer console that had a bastard child with the Abbey Road REDD.51.
All at our fingertips. Try to get that in hardware form.
lightsfadelow - Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:30 am
See this post for the magic that SKNote applied to get more real analog console feel than just a glorified color plugin:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7771485-post1095.html
Compyfox - Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:38 am
Nothing new to me.
And I still say that no plugin among all of them is superior in what they are doing - they sound completely different, even though they work on a "similar" level.
MFXxx - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:10 am
I like this as a simple example of what can be done with sound. Im not worried about the technical details but this has got me inspired enough to demo it, espacially as i love VCC. Still use Strip and Satson for busses as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zOy5koXpSwk
I think I can find some love for this plugin...along with UBK-1 this is a good combo for drums imho.
Sequent - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:31 am
I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.
penguinfromdeep wrote:
I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...
Grain Bastard - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:54 am
Sequent wrote:
I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.
Harrison Mixbuss does so already, and Pro Tools with 'Heat'.
Grain Bastard - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:44 am
Compyfox wrote:
Console plugins like VCC, NLS and SATSON do "sum" the audio signal like an analog console would do "in theory". It not only adds saturation, but also "bleeds" the mixed channels together (crosstalk).
StripBus lies on a whole different ballpark. This plugin can be considered an "own mixing console". The channels interact depending on how much they overload, but they don't necessarily bleed with each other. That is for STRIPbus at least. stripBUS is just a master bus compressor.
There is one thing that all of these summing and console type plugins do nowadays: they let us rethink how to properly mix again. They teach us how to gain stage, how to measure in, how to mix while not overdoing sh*t. And here, Slate VCC was one of the forerunners.
StripBus lies on a whole different ballpark. This plugin can be considered an "own mixing console". The channels interact depending on how much they overload, but they don't necessarily bleed with each other. That is for STRIPbus at least. stripBUS is just a master bus compressor.
There is one thing that all of these summing and console type plugins do nowadays: they let us rethink how to properly mix again. They teach us how to gain stage, how to measure in, how to mix while not overdoing sh*t. And here, Slate VCC was one of the forerunners.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that the cross-talk emu was just between the left and right channels in a stereo channel and nothing else interacts.
Regarding the summing, I had this discussion when Shaite Digital 'announced' VCC and all I got from them was insults telling me to learn how analog mixers work!!!! As already stated, its nothing of the sort and never will be until tighter integration is allowed into the actual DAW. Summing snake oil.......
I'll happily admit that the big part is the saturation algo, and Shaite have done a good job with that, but as far as the summing goes, snake oil.
Regarding the 'proper mixing' advice, I couldn't agree more. That is probably the main reason peoples mixes sound 'better' with VCC and credit where its due, the metering and gain staging advice that comes with the plugin is probably worth the far from rip-off price they charge. I understand marketing is important etc but it went too far imo and suggested it does more than it actually does. What my argument was interested in was would the same 'properly' gain staged mix WITHOUT one of these 'console plugins' used sound good? Of course it will and we already have tools that offer the saturation thing, but has anyone tried them all really subtly on a really well mixed session??? I still maintain that the most influential 'tool' in the studio is us, the person making the decisions, yet it seems that more and more people are pinning their hopes on DSP to bypass the years of work it takes to become a competent engineer. Poor DAW mixes are rarely the fault of digital summing imo. Just sticking a console emu over the poor DAW mix is it magically 'fixed'? No, to get the best out of them you put the mix right and then it sounds good!! Making it easier for people to get to that stage of the mix isn't something I expected these plugins to do if I'm honest. Slate pissed me off to put it mildly, when I asked them what I assumed were reasonable questions but the educational properties of VCC is worthy of more recognition than their 'analog summing'. Hopefully the Waves NLS plugin will also have this pleasant side effect (to get back OT
)
Just MHO.
audiosabre - Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:40 am
I'm happy with VCC, Satson & StripBus. I'm not demoing NLS until it's $129 or less (street). Wait, I'm being generous there. >$99 is better
Sequent - Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:05 pm
Exactly!
<Edit> Looks like Mixbus is still on sale for $149 and they've even set up a 3 payment option for folks on a tight budget.
Grain Bastard wrote:
Sequent wrote:
I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.
Harrison Mixbuss does so already, and Pro Tools with 'Heat'.
3ee - Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:28 pm
audiosabre wrote:
I'm happy with VCC, Satson & StripBus. I'm not demoing NLS until it's $129 or less (street). Wait, I'm being generous there. >$99 is better
Honestly, some prices at Waves are just ridiculous, literally, after trowing something native in the basket to check out the price, I close the window and start laughing
Now, they are trying to bribe us with "some" small prices.. but I won't forget what they did for so many years, no sir!
Added: Than again, why do I want some of their stuff?
..ow well, better make the best of what I got! Sequent - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:31 pm
Very important point, imo and something that a lot of use so easily forget!
3ee wrote:
..ow well, better make the best of what I got!
hibidy - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:56 pm
Sequent wrote:
Very important point, imo and something that a lot of use so easily forget!
3ee wrote:
..ow well, better make the best of what I got!
So, when seeing new gear, you have your sunglasses on?
SuperFly76 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:10 pm
hibidy wrote:
Sequent wrote:
Very important point, imo and something that a lot of use so easily forget!
3ee wrote:
..ow well, better make the best of what I got!
So, when seeing new gear, you have your sunglasses on?
I remember watching that movie as a kid.
Back OT, I'm interested in this plugin but will wait it out and see how the responses here and on other forums pan out. As it is, I'm very happy with StripBus and Satson for my console emu needs.
shanecgriffo - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:58 pm
hibidy wrote:
Sequent wrote:
Very important point, imo and something that a lot of use so easily forget!
3ee wrote:
..ow well, better make the best of what I got!
So, when seeing new gear, you have your sunglasses on?
oh i love that bit when he puts on the glasses, it's one of my favorite bits of cinematography for some reason, i just like that weird mood of it, just those signs,.. not so much the aliens.. for some reason it really stuck in my mind.
Compyfox - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:41 pm
Grain Bastard wrote:
Sequent wrote:
I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.
Harrison Mixbuss does so already, and Pro Tools with 'Heat'.
You forgot "Record" by Propellerheads who also claim to have used an SSL design/emulation. Then again, Mixbus is not a real console port either. Not only does it come with a buggy (still open source!) host, but basically it does nothing else than the used to combo, just sans the additionally needed insert slot.
The only system that does channel interaction on overload is SKnote's STRIPbus.
Grain Bastard wrote:
Are you sure? I was under the impression that the cross-talk emu was just between the left and right channels in a stereo channel and nothing else interacts.
This is correct if you look at SATSON, NLS and especially VCC in terms of the summing/bus plugin. The channels themselves do not offer crosstalk. STRIPbus does offer that however on a per-channel basis (for stereo channels as well). At least in one version I tested.
Grain Bastard wrote:
Regarding the summing, I had this discussion when Shaite Digital 'announced' VCC and all I got from them was insults telling me to learn how analog mixers work!!!! As already stated, its nothing of the sort and never will be until tighter integration is allowed into the actual DAW. Summing snake oil.......
I'll happily admit that the big part is the saturation algo, and Shaite have done a good job with that, but as far as the summing goes, snake oil.
I'll happily admit that the big part is the saturation algo, and Shaite have done a good job with that, but as far as the summing goes, snake oil.
Not quote correct. Summing means "adding up signals" in short. So a summing plugin or a summing device does nothing than mixdown individual channels of a mixing console into a stereo bus/channel (for the most parts). You could in theory just use a simple stereo group for that purpose - the saturation algo in this case is added bonus and adds the "crosstalk" in some cases (depending on the plugin, either very subtle or strong as hell).
Do you consider Variety of Sound's summing plugin TESSLA PRO also snake oil? Granted, no crosstalk (to my knowledge), but still.
What about passive summing cables/boxes where only resistors were used to mess with the sound and the stereo output is the summed signal basically? Snake oil as well? Try to find the summing cable article by Eric Beam (rhyhthminmind) on his blog - I'm sure that topic will open your eyes.
Else, Steven (or whoever answered) was totally right in terms how to learn how an analog mixer works. You can't port it into digital form - you need to know the relation between worklevel (in RMS!) and headroom. Hence the up to -20dB reference point. Only if you understand that, you understand how all these plugins work and can work with them like they are intended to.
Grain Bastard wrote:
Regarding the 'proper mixing' advice, I couldn't agree more. That is probably the main reason peoples mixes sound 'better' with VCC and credit where its due, the metering and gain staging advice that comes with the plugin is probably worth the far from rip-off price they charge.
I stated this to the developers several times. The manual is a bit misleading and definitely confusing, it also lacks certain informations. This is why I wrote a short manual in how to use these things (see my KVRmarks).
Grain Bastard wrote:
I understand marketing is important etc but it went too far imo and suggested it does more than it actually does. What my argument was interested in was would the same 'properly' gain staged mix WITHOUT one of these 'console plugins' used sound good? Of course it will and we already have tools that offer the saturation thing, but has anyone tried them all really subtly on a really well mixed session??? I still maintain that the most influential 'tool' in the studio is us, the person making the decisions, yet it seems that more and more people are pinning their hopes on DSP to bypass the years of work it takes to become a competent engineer. Poor DAW mixes are rarely the fault of digital summing imo. Just sticking a console emu over the poor DAW mix is it magically 'fixed'? No, to get the best out of them you put the mix right and then it sounds good!! Making it easier for people to get to that stage of the mix isn't something I expected these plugins to do if I'm honest. Slate pissed me off to put it mildly, when I asked them what I assumed were reasonable questions but the educational properties of VCC is worthy of more recognition than their 'analog summing'. Hopefully the Waves NLS plugin will also have this pleasant side effect (to get back OT )
Just MHO.
)
Just MHO.
The Slate plugin does indeed mess with the source material. Sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad ways. I can do with and without - sometimes I even prefer not going for VCC as it messes too much with the sound.
Mixing with proper gain staging and sticking to certain limits does indeed help and reduce overcompressed mixes on the long run. But this is nothing to get pissed about Slate and on the other hand praise another developer. You're not forced to use them - they just add some additional bonus (that I highly advice to take a closer look with an analyser first!) on top. Else you can simply use a calibrated VU to level in your signal.
If it's worth anything, you can still learn a lot with either of these plugins (if they are calibrated!) and here price-wise Sonimus and MellowMuse are your best bets, maybe SKnote as well but the VU's are hard to read. What you think of the other individuals in terms of sound shaping is definitely personal preference. If it works for you, fine. If it doesn't, fine with me as well. It's your workflow after all.
Hm... I should finally write that analog-plugin/gain staging series I plan for a while now on my blog...
hibidy - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:48 pm
shanecgriffo wrote:
oh i love that bit when he puts on the glasses, it's one of my favorite bits of cinematography for some reason, i just like that weird mood of it, just those signs,.. not so much the aliens.. for some reason it really stuck in my mind.
And @superfly:
I just don't think that so many are immune to "oh cool, check this new thing out". I love the idea of "use what you have" but if something comes along with an advantage, I'm interested.
However, @ product: Not seeing it. Maybe it's because I use reaper or already have satson, but I'm just not really seeing what my 250 usd would get me here.
Compyfox - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:53 pm
@hibidi:
I'd get it for the EMI TG12345 alone - but they could have put in the HLS (Helios) channelstrip as well. So the price is indeed a bit steep for just that purpose. It's just one among many SSL/Neve ports, even though the consoles were different and that Neve one is not one of the usual ported suspects either.
mystran - Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:56 pm
penguinfromdeep wrote:
I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...
Sure you can do it in a plugin: just create a plugin with multiple inputs, feed each channel to a different input and output the summed result. It's not very convenient to setup in the average host, but it's entirely feasible as far as the tech goes.. at least in hosts that allow reasonably modular routing.
I even have a proof-of-concept plugin (that doesn't really sound that great, so don't expect me to ever make it a real plugin) that sums 8 stereo channels in a way that gives completely transparent results if you feed stuff to one channel only.. but if you feed several channels at the same time you get some saturation on each channel depending on whats going on in all the other channels; you couldn't do that with a simple insert, but multi-input summer it's not a problem.
jam92189 - Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:15 am
i want this to be good it sounds cool but almost like it doesn't really do what they claim
MickGael - Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:44 am
The EMI mode is just beautiful.
Sequent - Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:26 am
I was looking at the videos at the Waves site and the EMI console looks really interesting. I have seen pictures of it before but not as in depth. It looks like something that might have come from the Nautilus!
(Nautilus as in Captain Nemo.)
Compyfox - Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:31 am
Look on Google or something for data regarding the TG12345. It was mainly used in the 70ies "Beatles" era as ultimate evolution of their REDD.51 console. It had more channels, better EQ, etc.
A book I can recommend in this case is "Recording the Beatles" - ton of into about the console in there.
Sequent - Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:33 am
I forgot about Record. Thanks for pointing that out. Thanks also for your thoughts on Mixbus.
I'll have to check SKnote... the price is certainly much better than NLS.
Compyfox wrote:
Grain Bastard wrote:
Sequent wrote:
I'm guessing we might start seeing something like this being built-in on daws pretty soon maybe.
Harrison Mixbuss does so already, and Pro Tools with 'Heat'.
You forgot "Record" by Propellerheads who also claim to have used an SSL design/emulation. Then again, Mixbus is not a real console port either. Not only does it come with a buggy (still open source!) host, but basically it does nothing else than the used to combo, just sans the additionally needed insert slot.
The only system that does channel interaction on overload is SKnote's STRIPbus.
jam92189 - Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:37 am
okay first of the only plugin that does real summing is stripbus from sknote
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.
[edit]
also stripbus is affected by how much headroom you are using up on the channels does this plugin do that. At first i wanted to try out the waves version but reading more and more into it it seems to be more hype.
Sequent - Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:42 am
I'll look into the "Beatles" book. I'm not interested in the console exactly... I was just mentioning that I thought it looked cool. Yet at the same time, it IS interesting and inspiring (and educational) to read about how things were produced, etc.
Cheers!
Compyfox wrote:
Look on Google or something for data regarding the TG12345. It was mainly used in the 70ies "Beatles" era as ultimate evolution of their REDD.51 console. It had more channels, better EQ, etc.
A book I can recommend in this case is "Recording the Beatles" - ton of into about the console in there.
A book I can recommend in this case is "Recording the Beatles" - ton of into about the console in there.
Sequent - Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:44 am
This is sounding more interesting by the minute.
jam92189 wrote:
okay first of the only plugin that does real summing is stripbus from sknote
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.
Compyfox - Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:54 am
jam92189 wrote:
okay first of the only plugin that does real summing is stripbus from sknote
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.
Still not quite true. "Summing" is taking several channels and "mix them down" into a stereo bus/group (to summarize). It's like mathematics only that several channels are "summed down" to two or 5.1 (surround).
It is true that STRIPbus does channel interaction on overload, and it offers ducking remote channels as well. But it is not a plugin set that does "true and only real summing". Again, take a look at (DIY) summing cables and what they do - the most simplest form of summing.
One thing that still doesn't swing with me with NLS is the "individual channel modeling" and "no channel sounds the same". I'd shred my console apart if these channels behave like that. Such nonsense started the myths on certain consoles that "channel X sounds better than channel Y, so I always put the vocals there". Slight changes (drift), fine. But if it's noticable, it's definitely a no go and it needs to be fixed.
MickGael - Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:56 am
Compyfox wrote:
A book I can recommend in this case is "Recording the Beatles" - ton of into about the console in there.
That book is a towering accomplishment. I'd been waiting for a book like that for more than 30 years.
jam92189 - Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:10 am
Compyfox wrote:
jam92189 wrote:
okay first of the only plugin that does real summing is stripbus from sknote
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.
the others might have cross talk but stripbus actually has inner talking to each other shit it even has smooth soft compression when you want lets say channel 3 to go down when channel 7 gets loud to me its the only one that talks to each other without adding x talk and it was even added in on the last update.
Still not quite true. "Summing" is taking several channels and "mix them down" into a stereo bus/group (to summarize). It's like mathematics only that several channels are "summed down" to two or 5.1 (surround).
It is true that STRIPbus does channel interaction on overload, and it offers ducking remote channels as well. But it is not a plugin set that does "true and only real summing". Again, take a look at (DIY) summing cables and what they do - the most simplest form of summing.
One thing that still doesn't swing with me with NLS is the "individual channel modeling" and "no channel sounds the same". I'd shred my console apart if these channels behave like that. Such nonsense started the myths on certain consoles that "channel X sounds better than channel Y, so I always put the vocals there". Slight changes (drift), fine. But if it's noticable, it's definitely a no go and it needs to be fixed.
that is a good point the bus compressor that comes with it works fairly well though. But i see what you mean. It would be a cool addition if they could be routed directly to a bus channel and sum everything up there as well.
and as for separate channel modulation. i do agree there that no one has done that yet. but it seems like it would take forever for them to do it and right.
Funkybot's Evil Twin - Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:18 am
mystran wrote:
penguinfromdeep wrote:
I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...
Sure you can do it in a plugin: just create a plugin with multiple inputs, feed each channel to a different input and output the summed result. It's not very convenient to setup in the average host, but it's entirely feasible as far as the tech goes.. at least in hosts that allow reasonably modular routing.
I even have a proof-of-concept plugin (that doesn't really sound that great, so don't expect me to ever make it a real plugin) that sums 8 stereo channels in a way that gives completely transparent results if you feed stuff to one channel only.. but if you feed several channels at the same time you get some saturation on each channel depending on whats going on in all the other channels; you couldn't do that with a simple insert, but multi-input summer it's not a problem.
I agree it's feasible, just wonder why Slate or Waves or UA haven't taken it on. I wasn't sure plugins could feed audio directly to other plugins until I saw the sampler plugin for Geist. You put the Spitter effect on a track, and it takes the audio and spits it into Geist. A summing/console channel plugin could theoretically do the same thing. If one were really clever, you could probably get crosstalk from adjacent channels using something similar to grouping. You could tell the plugin, "this is channel 1" then "this is channel 2, etc" and it could feed the adjacent channels back into each other. It would probably require massive amounts of I/O and CPU power though, and I'm not convinced the results would be all that great.
jam92189 - Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:27 am
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
mystran wrote:
penguinfromdeep wrote:
I don't know how real summing could be done in a plug-in, maybe if it was built-in a daw it would be possible (I'm sure we'll see something like this in future). It must be a nightmare to program in a plug-in something like this, still Sknote managed to do this somewhat in the Stripbus 2 plug-in. It's still quite buggy though at least for me ...
Sure you can do it in a plugin: just create a plugin with multiple inputs, feed each channel to a different input and output the summed result. It's not very convenient to setup in the average host, but it's entirely feasible as far as the tech goes.. at least in hosts that allow reasonably modular routing.
I even have a proof-of-concept plugin (that doesn't really sound that great, so don't expect me to ever make it a real plugin) that sums 8 stereo channels in a way that gives completely transparent results if you feed stuff to one channel only.. but if you feed several channels at the same time you get some saturation on each channel depending on whats going on in all the other channels; you couldn't do that with a simple insert, but multi-input summer it's not a problem.
I agree it's feasible, just wonder why Slate or Waves or UA haven't taken it on. I wasn't sure plugins could feed audio directly to other plugins until I saw the sampler plugin for Geist. You put the Spitter effect on a track, and it takes the audio and spits it into Geist. A summing/console channel plugin could theoretically do the same thing. If one were really clever, you could probably get crosstalk from adjacent channels using something similar to grouping. You could tell the plugin, "this is channel 1" then "this is channel 2, etc" and it could feed the adjacent channels back into each other. It would probably require massive amounts of I/O and CPU power though, and I'm not convinced the results would be all that great.
I am sure it can be done but just seems way to power hungry
Compyfox - Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:12 am
I don't think that this is practical...
Here is why:
Let's take your usual consumer console, either a Mackie or a Behringer, maybe even Allan and Heith.
Most of these "cheap" devices do not work module based, but there are several channels soldered on to one board. Now if you overload a channel here, there is a huge chance you affect the others in the process. This is the nasty bleeding effect a lot of engineers try to evade.
A negative sideeffect of that "bleeding" (that some of you apparently want) is also ducking channels, or distorting them. Quinto pretty much implemented that with STRIPbus. Only that you have a certain control here.
Now... large scale consoles work module based. At least most of them. Meaning: each channel strip works individual and is connected to the full array (routed to the summing bus) in parallel through own means. Usually these channels are not connected unless you want them to. In theory we could talk about galvanic disconnection (which would be the best way possible), but in reality this doesn't happen (radiation, etc).
Here the channel differences make sense if you take a look at the whole module. A damaged resistor or a capacitor can mess with the whole channel. Or let's say the module wasn't properly installed, then you have additional noise and the liking. This is what Waves tried to pull off, and other firms/developers like Slate and AlexB (with modification of his own consoles) tried to evade. It can add some certain flavor, but I see it as damaged components that need to be fixed.
What you ask is a complete "console" built after. Which would mean you need a dedicated system. But we have that already! It's our host!
Our host is the most clean and most correct working tool that we have at our disposal. It is a tape machine and a console in one! You can't get any better than that.
The thing that we miss in this case however is the conversation from kinetic energy to electric energy and therefore bits and bytes. Stuff that let things sound alive. And here we talk about preamps and microphones. All with their dedicated frequency response, harmonic distortion (if the circuity demands it or does so on purpose) plus our more or less flat AD/DA's.
It is no weakspot whatsoever to just use a (simple) digital host like Cubase, Logic, Acid, FLStudio, Sonar, StudioONE, RECORD, Samplitude and how they are all called. If we want more flavour, we grasp for things that model analog devices such as certain EQ's, compressor, preamps, guitar amps, microphone modelers or in this case a console.
Really, in reality engineers around the globe tried to evade all he negative sideeffect of analog equipment. Now we scream for these tools again in digital form yet barely anyone realises what we have at our disposal already.
There were even A/B tests with passive summing modules (cables again), and the only "coloring" that happened here was due to the gain compensation of the preamp prior to the AD/DA again. That and the more finer resolution due to voltage rather than bits and bytes that literally no one can hear!
Forget the "blind tests" - there is no secret magic going on and a 20grand digital cable doesn't sound better than a properly built 20bucks DIY one.
jam92189 - Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:35 am
Compyfox wrote:
I don't think that this is practical...
Here is why:
Let's take your usual consumer console, either a Mackie or a Behringer, maybe even Allan and Heith.
Most of these "cheap" devices do not work module based, but there are several channels soldered on to one board. Now if you overload a channel here, there is a huge chance you affect the others in the process. This is the nasty bleeding effect a lot of engineers try to evade.
A negative sideeffect of that "bleeding" (that some of you apparently want) is also ducking channels, or distorting them. Quinto pretty much implemented that with STRIPbus. Only that you have a certain control here.
Now... large scale consoles work module based. At least most of them. Meaning: each channel strip works individual and is connected to the full array (routed to the summing bus) in parallel through own means. Usually these channels are not connected unless you want them to. In theory we could talk about galvanic disconnection (which would be the best way possible), but in reality this doesn't happen (radiation, etc).
Here the channel differences make sense if you take a look at the whole module. A damaged resistor or a capacitor can mess with the whole channel. Or let's say the module wasn't properly installed, then you have additional noise and the liking. This is what Waves tried to pull off, and other firms/developers like Slate and AlexB (with modification of his own consoles) tried to evade. It can add some certain flavor, but I see it as damaged components that need to be fixed.
What you ask is a complete "console" built after. Which would mean you need a dedicated system. But we have that already! It's our host!
Our host is the most clean and most correct working tool that we have at our disposal. It is a tape machine and a console in one! You can't get any better than that.
The thing that we miss in this case however is the conversation from kinetic energy to electric energy and therefore bits and bytes. Stuff that let things sound alive. And here we talk about preamps and microphones. All with their dedicated frequency response, harmonic distortion (if the circuity demands it or does so on purpose) plus our more or less flat AD/DA's.
It is no weakspot whatsoever to just use a (simple) digital host like Cubase, Logic, Acid, FLStudio, Sonar, StudioONE, RECORD, Samplitude and how they are all called. If we want more flavour, we grasp for things that model analog devices such as certain EQ's, compressor, preamps, guitar amps, microphone modelers or in this case a console.
Really, in reality engineers around the globe tried to evade all he negative sideeffect of analog equipment. Now we scream for these tools again in digital form yet barely anyone realises what we have at our disposal already.
There were even A/B tests with passive summing modules (cables again), and the only "coloring" that happened here was due to the gain compensation of the preamp prior to the AD/DA again. That and the more finer resolution due to voltage rather than bits and bytes that literally no one can hear!
Forget the "blind tests" - there is no secret magic going on and a 20grand digital cable doesn't sound better than a properly built 20bucks DIY one.
Here is why:
Let's take your usual consumer console, either a Mackie or a Behringer, maybe even Allan and Heith.
Most of these "cheap" devices do not work module based, but there are several channels soldered on to one board. Now if you overload a channel here, there is a huge chance you affect the others in the process. This is the nasty bleeding effect a lot of engineers try to evade.
A negative sideeffect of that "bleeding" (that some of you apparently want) is also ducking channels, or distorting them. Quinto pretty much implemented that with STRIPbus. Only that you have a certain control here.
Now... large scale consoles work module based. At least most of them. Meaning: each channel strip works individual and is connected to the full array (routed to the summing bus) in parallel through own means. Usually these channels are not connected unless you want them to. In theory we could talk about galvanic disconnection (which would be the best way possible), but in reality this doesn't happen (radiation, etc).
Here the channel differences make sense if you take a look at the whole module. A damaged resistor or a capacitor can mess with the whole channel. Or let's say the module wasn't properly installed, then you have additional noise and the liking. This is what Waves tried to pull off, and other firms/developers like Slate and AlexB (with modification of his own consoles) tried to evade. It can add some certain flavor, but I see it as damaged components that need to be fixed.
What you ask is a complete "console" built after. Which would mean you need a dedicated system. But we have that already! It's our host!
Our host is the most clean and most correct working tool that we have at our disposal. It is a tape machine and a console in one! You can't get any better than that.
The thing that we miss in this case however is the conversation from kinetic energy to electric energy and therefore bits and bytes. Stuff that let things sound alive. And here we talk about preamps and microphones. All with their dedicated frequency response, harmonic distortion (if the circuity demands it or does so on purpose) plus our more or less flat AD/DA's.
It is no weakspot whatsoever to just use a (simple) digital host like Cubase, Logic, Acid, FLStudio, Sonar, StudioONE, RECORD, Samplitude and how they are all called. If we want more flavour, we grasp for things that model analog devices such as certain EQ's, compressor, preamps, guitar amps, microphone modelers or in this case a console.
Really, in reality engineers around the globe tried to evade all he negative sideeffect of analog equipment. Now we scream for these tools again in digital form yet barely anyone realises what we have at our disposal already.
There were even A/B tests with passive summing modules (cables again), and the only "coloring" that happened here was due to the gain compensation of the preamp prior to the AD/DA again. That and the more finer resolution due to voltage rather than bits and bytes that literally no one can hear!
Forget the "blind tests" - there is no secret magic going on and a 20grand digital cable doesn't sound better than a properly built 20bucks DIY one.
i love this post i agree with you on many points here
Sequent - Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:38 am
Just a slightly OT sidetrack about the Beatles book...
I'm assuming it's the one by Kevin Ryan and Brian Kehew.
This book looks 'crazy' good. Apparently they discuss all the minutiae of what was used down to the exact second at which a certain compressor might kick in, etc. It seems that with the cds in hand and reading the book one could really get a good idea of what effect different things have, etc. as well as how things might be used and so forth. I really like that.
The book is available on Amazon from the Marketplace but not directly so the lowest asking price is currectly $137.69. That's for a used book classified as "good". The prices for "new" begin at $144.94. The shipping cost is an extra $3.99. Contrary to what Amazon lists, the book actually weighs 11 pounds! So another thing to watch for is Marketplace vendors cutting corners and trying to put extra money in their pocket by using ultra cheap shipping. Not to mention the "crappy" boxes, etc. that some vendors use.
The better alternative might be ordering directly from Curvebender Publishing. They have a special site: www.recodingthebeatles.com Their asking price is $100 and it looks like Fedex shipping is only about $10-15. The book is listed as being in stock and the site appears to be current as they talk about the authors giving a presentation about Abbey Roads Studios in March 2012.
A big shoutout to Compyfox for mentioning this book!! It looks fascinating! It's been out for a few years now but I actually missed it... and probably would not have even known about until much later and much too late to even be able to get it. So, thank you, thank you!!!
Okay. Apologies for sidetracking (though not really) the thread. Now back to our discussion...
MickGael - Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:45 am
Sequent wrote:
Just a slightly OT sidetrack about the Beatles book...
I'm assuming it's the one by Kevin Ryan and Brian Kehew.
This book looks 'crazy' good. Apparently they discuss all the minutiae of what was used down to the exact second at which a certain compressor might kick in, etc. It seems that with the cds in hand and reading the book one could really get a good idea of what effect different things have, etc. as well as how things might be used and so forth. I really like that.
The book is available on Amazon from the Marketplace but not directly so the lowest asking price is currectly $137.69. That's for a used book classified as "good". The prices for "new" begin at $144.94. The shipping cost is an extra $3.99. Contrary to what Amazon lists, the book actually weighs 11 pounds! So another thing to watch for is Marketplace vendors cutting corners and trying to put extra money in their pocket by using ultra cheap shipping. Not to mention the "crappy" boxes, etc. that some vendors use.
The better alternative might be ordering directly from Curvebender Publishing. They have a special site: www.recodingthebeatles.com Their asking price is $100 and it looks like Fedex shipping is included. The book is listed as being in stock and the site appears to be current as they talk about the authors giving a presentation about Abbey Roads Studios in March 2012.
A big shoutout to Compyfox for mentioning this book!! It looks fascinating! It's been out for a few years now but I actually missed it... and probably would not have even known about until much later and much too late to even be able to get it. So, thank you, thank you!!!
Okay. Apologies for sidetracking (though not really) the thread. Now back to our discussion...
I'm assuming it's the one by Kevin Ryan and Brian Kehew.
This book looks 'crazy' good. Apparently they discuss all the minutiae of what was used down to the exact second at which a certain compressor might kick in, etc. It seems that with the cds in hand and reading the book one could really get a good idea of what effect different things have, etc. as well as how things might be used and so forth. I really like that.
The book is available on Amazon from the Marketplace but not directly so the lowest asking price is currectly $137.69. That's for a used book classified as "good". The prices for "new" begin at $144.94. The shipping cost is an extra $3.99. Contrary to what Amazon lists, the book actually weighs 11 pounds! So another thing to watch for is Marketplace vendors cutting corners and trying to put extra money in their pocket by using ultra cheap shipping. Not to mention the "crappy" boxes, etc. that some vendors use.
The better alternative might be ordering directly from Curvebender Publishing. They have a special site: www.recodingthebeatles.com Their asking price is $100 and it looks like Fedex shipping is included. The book is listed as being in stock and the site appears to be current as they talk about the authors giving a presentation about Abbey Roads Studios in March 2012.
A big shoutout to Compyfox for mentioning this book!! It looks fascinating! It's been out for a few years now but I actually missed it... and probably would not have even known about until much later and much too late to even be able to get it. So, thank you, thank you!!!
Okay. Apologies for sidetracking (though not really) the thread. Now back to our discussion...
For those interested, the book itself is (physically) a behemoth. I have one of the numbered first run editions, so I'm not sure what it comes with now, but the deluxe version has some extremely cool goodies. The asking price IS a lot, but once you have it in your hands I think you'd have been willing to pay even more.
Sequent - Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:09 pm
On the book again... I've updated my post to say that shipping from the publisher is extra and not included. But it's only about $10-15.
The book that I just purchased does look like it still includes the extras (and a slipcase?). I was really debating about whether to go for it, because it IS a lot for a book. But I decided to do it. It's one of those things... like the Alan Parsons DVD set from Keyfax that seems a good investment in learning more about the tools of the trade.
(And seeing the quote from AP on the site made me think... okay, I'm doing it.)
MickGael - Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:11 pm
Sequent wrote:
On the book again... I've updated my post to say that shipping from the publisher is extra and not included. But it's only about $10-15.
The book that I just purchased does look like it still includes the extras (and a slipcase?). I was really debating about whether to go for it, because it IS a lot for a book. But I decided to do it. It's one of those things... like the Alan Parsons DVD set from Keyfax that seems a good investment in learning more about the tools of the trade.
(And seeing the quote from AP on the site made me think... okay, I'm doing it.)
The book that I just purchased does look like it still includes the extras (and a slipcase?). I was really debating about whether to go for it, because it IS a lot for a book. But I decided to do it. It's one of those things... like the Alan Parsons DVD set from Keyfax that seems a good investment in learning more about the tools of the trade.
(And seeing the quote from AP on the site made me think... okay, I'm doing it.)
You are going to flip out when you get it. Epic.
PS - The slipcase looks like an original EMI tape box and is very robust.
scalawag - Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:27 pm
Compyfox wrote:
A negative sideeffect of that "bleeding" (that some of you apparently want) is also ducking channels, or distorting them. Quinto pretty much implemented that with STRIPbus. Only that you have a certain control here.
No a certain but a TOTAL control.
MFXxx - Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:29 pm
Well finally dived in and purchase NLS and decided to also get SSL pack using the recent WUP, will be testing and using over the weekend
Thanks to max at Waves Universe for a great deal, fast communication and a smooth transaction.
Im such a plugin whore, I mean enthusiast.
Peace
Compyfox - Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:19 am
scalawag wrote:
Compyfox wrote:
A negative sideeffect of that "bleeding" (that some of you apparently want) is also ducking channels, or distorting them. Quinto pretty much implemented that with STRIPbus. Only that you have a certain control here.
No a certain but a TOTAL control.
I haven't seen a more recent version, but elder ones were pretty limited on the "auto connection" part and how strong the neighboring channels are affected on overload. Else you have a lot of control indeed.
Still I consider this a negative sideeffect however.
MFXxx wrote:
Well finally dived in and purchase NLS and decided to also get SSL pack using the recent WUP, will be testing and using over the weekend
Keep in mind that the SSL pack also tries to simulate a channel strip along with it's saturation. You really have to listen and utilize a proper gain staging (remember -18dB reference level). Chances are you add just too much.
Think about it:
NLS adds "saturation" on a per channel basis (since it simulates a channel strip sans EQ/comp/gate), so does SSL 4k (analog mode on). You have two channel strips in series.
In my case, I have the British Bundle from Nomad, and more than often I catch myself not turning off the "Vintage" mode if I'm using VCC in the process. At first it sounds great, but I also tend to filter more even if it's not needed.
You can certainly overdo things. But workflow wise such EQ/channel strip designs are indeed great.
Lenticular - Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:27 am
After putting it through it's paces I don't think I'll be purchasing this.
I will say it never crashed once, very stable & thoughtfully laid out but that's about as far as it goes.
VCC has more of a vibe & Nebula/ Alex B beats them both.
3ee - Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:34 am
The character of the voice recorded for the clip below...
...is it maybe real tape or Waves NLS?
Didn't test Waves NLC yet, that's way I'm asking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGwprqEup0