KVR :: Effects » CSR vs. Valhalla Room? [View Original Topic]
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odd - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:04 am

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I need a reverb mainly for guitar leads, both distorted and soft bluesy material. Can't decide between these two - they're both very tweakable (I guess with the upper hand going to CSR in this regard), but I'm not really much of a tweaker. And they both sound pretty good. My budget is limited, hence these two.

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mcraze - Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:52 am

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I'd pick Valhalla because together with "clean" reverbs it also has coloured lo-fi algorithms which can add some darker character to a sound - it's more musical to me personally.

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4damind - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:10 am

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Valhalla is the better investment for your needs and eventually limited budget. Very easy to use, big support from the developer, not expensive. Sounds better.

There is also Breeze (the little brother of Aether from 2CAudio) with not so many controls and so it's easier to use. It's a bit cheaper than Aether with $149... Could be another option and there is also a demo version available (see Breeze Website)

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filter303 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:15 am

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What is really annoying about CSR is the need for separate plugins for different algorithms. Just imagine if there was 10 different VROOM plugins. One for each algorithm. I personally hate that sort of thing. I pretty much stopped using CSR when I bought VROOM.

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Bronto Scorpio - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:18 am

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+1 for Vroom (again)!

It's very fxelible, constantly gets updated, is compatible with almost all available formats (and 64bit), sounds simply amazing (!!!) and is really affordable

Cheers
Dennis

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VitaminD - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:51 am

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By saying 'VROOM' you mean ValhallaRoom right? There is no plugin called VROOM


I agree with you on the multiple plugins for different reverb algorithms. it could have been one plugin with a drop down or selector for each algorithm.

I'm now demoing ValhallaRoom and it does sound good.. but I'm not sure it sounds THAT much better than CSR to my ears.. guess I will continue to test for another week or so..

CSR macro ability is handy though for modulating multiple parameters.. just map them to the one slider and go.

decisions. hmmm hehe

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Dean Aka Nekro - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:52 am

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VROOM

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kbaccki - Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:59 am

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sadkin - Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:05 am

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VRoom - sounds better to me than CSR. VRoom sounds like the real deal to me, whatever that means, CSR, to its credit, is a lot older. I think it was one of the first truly, 'newer' trend of soft reverbs out there to tackle such algo's - but still, like the old UA plug's, in this age, a couple years makes a difference in what is achievable in terms of realism and quality..

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kbaccki - Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:08 am

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Personally, for guitar leads I would focus more on a quality delay unit first, and live w/ a decent freebie for the verb... like kjaerhus classic verb, voxengo oldskoolverb, etc.... I would do most of my coloration and "fill" w/ delay (chorus, ping pong, etc.), and use verb for some ambience at the end of the chain. Maybe check out UberMod? My $.02.

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CS80 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:12 am

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Valhalla Room, IMHO

also love "Shimmer"

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odd - Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:54 am

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Thanks for the input. Looks like Valhalla is where it's at.



Thanks, but I think I have my delay needs covered. I'm on Mac, so free algorithmic reverb plug-ins are not an option (unless there's some I don't know about?). Live's native reverb is horrible for anything natural-sounding, and the TC Fabrik R that I also have requires re-sampling anything that's going to be rendered, which is a bother. This is for low-latency recording/mixing, so convolution or Nebula (which I also own and love) is out of the question.

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digitalboytn - Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:04 am

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Vrooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom

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kbaccki - Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:08 am

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Ah, ok then... Voxengo OldSkoolVerb supports mac VST and AU... but again, if you're really in the market for both high quality and ultimate flexibility then you're looking at vroom, etc. rather than your basic, decent quality freebie...

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filter303 - Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:16 am

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Yes I ment ValhallaRoom. CSR is also very nice
As a lazy guy I usually use CSR Plate snare preset for my clap sounds
I love reverbs and I have a very bad habit of overusing them. Each of them sound so different so I wan't to be using everthing I have

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rasmusklump - Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:35 am

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I have CSR (sadly I am not allowed to sell it) but I can't fit it into a mix. I have never used it in the end.
I would go for Valhallaroom.

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standalone - Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:44 am

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To the OP: buy the one you like more, why not?

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odd - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:44 am

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I don't - or didn't - know which one I liked more. People here have better, more experienced, ears than I. And my time and skill for tweaking is limited.

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Gamma-UT - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:08 am

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VRoom is arguably the best option here, esp for the bluesy stuff. For strongly effected guitar leads it might almost be a bit too 'real' and Ubermod might still be a better option because of its flexibility. However...



Live's native reverb presets are horrible. The reverb itself, esp on Hi-Q mode, is perfectly good. However, to get the best out of it you need to work with the built-in EQ, diffusion and reflection parameters. And you can have hours of fun with the freeze button and a MIDI/control pedal.

And there are free algorithmic reverbs. One is the Smartelectronix (Magnus) Ambience which (I think) has gone from being donationware to free. But, hey, there's nothing wrong with donating. Again, it needs some coaxing to get the best out of it but it works. And then there's Martin Eastwood's MVerb - I haven't had a good play with this one yet, to be honest.

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pdxindy - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:15 am

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Just get VRoom... It is that good and that cheap... reverb steal of the century!

It is also easy to work with. The controls are so easy to change without having to grab tiny buttons.

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MickGael - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:28 am

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I have both. To be honest, I use CSR Hall (as buss verb) more. If I had to choose one, I might go with VRoom (because development is ongoing and very active). Or, I'd save and buy Eventide Stereo Room.

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Brian @ IK Multimedia - Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:21 am

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CSR development is ongoing and active as well. 64-bit support is in development, along with a few other surprises.

As standalone suggests, get the one YOU like best.
We have a fully working 10-day DEMO of CSR. Download it. And make your decision based on that.

DO keep in mind that CSR is not going to remain $50. It is $50 right now because of our limited-time sale.

I'm sure you've already discovered KVR tends to have a hive mentality that chases the latest "shiny new thing" and seems to have an knee-jerk aversion to the industry standard plugins from established developers such as IK Multimedia and Waves. Not coincidentally, KVR users' VSTplugins folders tend to be litered with abandonware and forgotten plugins that never quite lived up to the hype of the moment.

This is of course in no way directed at Sean's plugins, just a general pattern you have to be aware of on KVR.

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MickGael - Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:27 am

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Thanks for the clarification. I do not think the perception is that there is ongoing development. Good of you to set the record straight. Back the "the hive."

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kmonkey - Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:37 am

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Ouch...To my ear Vroom is amazing but CSR is as well. It is not best of the best but it is PERFECTLY fine.

What i want to point out is that these two reverb imho has VERY different sound thus you can get VERY different result. If CSR is 50$, Vroom is also cheap why not get both? Seriously they are very different reverbs and they will fit into your workflow just nice.

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soulata - Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:54 am

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I do have CSR but will probably buy VRoom as well.

I have just built a 64bit monster and will install only 64bit stuff for now.

IK, I am looking at you!!! As much as I love SampleTank or CSR, this 64 bit transition has been way too long.

k

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Igro - Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:13 pm

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Hard to choose, honestly. Both verbs are top notch. CSR was a bit complicated for me, but if you like to tweak...

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Gamma-UT - Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:18 pm

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One other thing to bear in mind is the copy protection: VRoom is a simple file-based system. IK uses challenge/response with a limit of five activations before you have to go back to IK get some more if you need to upgrade to a new machine beyond the initial five. It can take some time to get there, but I've now maxed mine out and would prefer to not have the hassle of requesting further installations.

Also, it's a bit rich for IK to complain about the hive mind when things don't necessarily go their way. Plenty of people have been pumping up their group buys over the years.

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AndrewSimon - Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:21 pm

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From a fellow guitar player.... Valhalla!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP9P9u1DwgA

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MickGael - Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:18 pm

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+1

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soulata - Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:21 pm

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Not to worry though, there is not a month without some kind of IK sale

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Funkybot's Evil Twin - Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:24 pm

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I used CSR near-exclusively for years, but VRoom just sounds better and is easier/faster to use if you ask me. Plus, it's already 64bit. They're both good, but if I could only have one it would be VRoom, no contest. In fact, I'd probably take VRoom over a lot of high end algorithmic hardware verbs.

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Bronto Scorpio - Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:30 pm

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digitalboytn - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:31 pm

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I don't think this is entirely true...

Every industry targets consumers who lust after the latest shiny incarnation, but the information that is shared on these forums can help us to make better informed decisions...

Many of the people who add to the debate around here are seasoned professionals who have been around long enough not to be blinded by the glow of the "shiny new thing"...

There are some great independent software developers out there - some who have moved away from the bigger "corporate model" - and it's encouraging to see this development happening - almost like the cottage industries of old...

Of course,this irks the companies who like to regard themselves as the "industry standard",but this is to be expected

It's always good for the consumer to make researched and well informed decisions and the KVR forum is a place for healthy and intelligent debate..

It's a hive of activity for sure,but it's just not for bees

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JeffSanders - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:38 pm

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Both are great options. Vroom is my new favorite for the time being. But CSR is a classic. I'd have no problem making it my only reverb.

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Sampleconstruct - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:38 pm

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"Industry standard plugin" is just a vacuous phrase...

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MacQ - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:44 pm

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ValhallaRoom, definitely. Amazing deal from a really nice dude.

~Stu

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jensa - Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:56 pm

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Well, active as you see it as an insider, as outsiders we KNOW Sean is listening to the users and he gives us some quite insight into what he have done, is doing, and will do. That's what active means to me.

CSR, great reverbs but with 4 different plugins means you can't dial in a sound on one type of reverb and just switch to another algorithm without re-dialing again. I hope and guess that's one of the things IK is gonna fix with the updated version, otherwise I will not bother to use them. Takes to much time and time is valuable.

True, great price. Though, there's sometime the occasion where you can get them cheap included with another product. That's the way IK do business. No opinion about that.

Well, this is Brian @ IK Multimedia and what he thinks about (some of) the KVR people. I think quite the contrary, like digitalboytn said earlier. I'm not affiliated with any VST-plugin maker though.

Buy both, they're worth it.

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hibidy - Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:29 pm

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valhallaroom.

A x64 great sounding verb. It's go to and I have some beauties!

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Integratron - Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:24 pm

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Get the demos of each and let your ears be the judge. I have Ios, Adverb, Valhallaroom and CSR. These are all great reverbs but CSR from IK Multimedia has been my personal favorite throughout the years and still is to this day. Some users complain that it's old, it doesn't have many presets and the reverb is segmented (separate Hall, Plate, Room, Inverse VSTe) or too metallic.

The sound is breathtaking IMHO... very complex and detailed. I find that it is really easy to setup and save your own presets as there are many parameters, all with full automation. I like the old classic studio reverbs like the EMT and AKG and CSR has the most accurate emulation of these old units.

Many users have paid hundreds for CSR reverb but for a limited time, it is available as a download at the IK Multimedia site for a limited time for $49.00

And no, I do not work for IK.

More info here: http://ikmultimedia.com/csr/features/

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justin3am - Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:56 pm

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No, no, nothing against Sean's plug-ins... just blatantly insulting to KVR members. Stay classy IK.

I can totally recommend Valhalla Room. it sounds great, it's very flexible and still easy to use. Don't trust me though, check out the demo. Also check out the samples from Bronto Scorpio and Sample Construct. Great stuff.

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debra1rlo - Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:33 pm

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Not me, I don't use that foo foo euro metric system. My abandonware and forgotten plugins are all in quart and pint size containers. AS THEY SHOULD BE.

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heffus - Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:35 pm

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Nice.

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Coil - Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:37 pm

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i have both and suggest you to buy valhallaroom.

i would never buy anything again from that other company

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hibidy - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:18 pm

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The saddest thing is they have done some nice things for me. It's not like they are just this evil company. But yeah, that commenting went too far for a business. Anyways, I just don't care for the sound of csr, never have. ymmv

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rasmusklump - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:23 pm

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For me the sound of CSR is everything else than breathtaking. I just can't get it to sound right in a mix. I own it since that Sample Tank groupbuy 3 or 4 years ago but hva never used it in a mix in the end...

I don't remember your system specs, but if you are on windows you should also check Epicverb. This one I can't make sound bad and it sits in the mix. And its free.

Alex

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mkdr - Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:38 pm

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I just got the CSR. I can highly recommend it. Very nice classy sound to it. It seems to have a lot of good presets too. To me this sounds more like a "classic rock" machine, and someone have compared it to a Lexicons PCM91.
On the other hand, I've used Valhalla Room longer and it's just great for tweaking new stuff quickly. The gui on it is much more accessible, though it has a bit different settings for the verbs too. It doesn't sound as classy. I'd rather describe it as elegant and modern. Very high quality! ..though, that's not what you always need for a rock mix
So in the OP's case i'd prob go for the CSR. Personally I use both

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munchkin - Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:46 pm

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After demoing CSR I've also bought it. It's the first reverb I've used that I can get to sit in the mix pretty quickly. I've got the UAD ones, Powercore and a couple of native ones which seem really tricky to use and sound great on individual sounds but seem tough to fit in a mix.

I've not tried VRoom (am I being over familiar here as a non owner?) But I'll try the demo and see how it compare to CSR.

UPDATE:

Just tried the VROOM - very nice reverb but still prefer CSR. They're very close though. But it's not a must have for me.

UBERMOD - Fantastic! I must get this as soon as I have the cash. I've got LeMasque Delay and PSP 608 and now I really want this! It has a very airy sound quality that the others can't really match very easily.

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ObiK - Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:31 am

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Thanks for the kind words about CSR!

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Jind - Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:58 am

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I'm going to go with the suggestion to make the decision for yourself. Both can be demoed so why go by others opinions as your sole deciding factor. While research and seeking others opinions is always a valid tool when searching for a new tool, it should never be the only factor as we each have individual tastes and individual requirements. Who knows, you may end up like many and eventually getting both.

Right now CSR is on sale for $49 dollars, ValhallaRoom seems to be staying at $50 for a while so if the possibility that you might want both, perhaps you might want to consider that as a factor.

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Ah Xoc Kin - Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:03 pm

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As mentioned earlier, you can count on IK products being regularly discounted. I remember CSR being $99, including T-Racks (Ultimate Mastering Bundle).

I've had CSR for over a year and seldom use it. I bought ArtsAcoustic Reverb about 4 months ago and have used it more often already. (BTW, I just found this 6 year old thread http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=130895&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 )

For your guitar needs you may want to try Overloud's SpringAge, especially when they have their 40% off promos.

CSR does not work with some hosts, so definitely try before you buy. I do like CSR and think its worth the $50. I probably would spend my money elsewhere, though.

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vata44 - Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:11 pm

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Is CSR 64bit?

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mandolarian - Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:32 pm

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Short answer: No.

Long answer: Not yet. But, it's on IK's to-do list, somewhere between Sampletank and world peace.

Silly answer: Cascade two 32bit instances - should be close enough for folk music.

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standalone - Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:35 pm

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Even better: use The Glue between both.

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mandolarian - Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:37 pm

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Yes, but that's more folk/rock isn't it?

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VitaminD - Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:03 pm

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That is 64 bit mono... you need two 32bit instances for each channel to achieve true stereo or four total instances.

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hibidy - Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:27 pm

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So forget about it then?

Ah, I'm really enjoying my VR in x64 native

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Brother Charles - Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:29 pm

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Howdy KVR Krew:

I just bought CSR (on sale for $49). I'm really, really liking it. I haven't demoed Valhalla yet, but quite frankly, I am pleased with CSR and will just stick with it and Bootsy's epicVERB.

Once you get familiar with CSR, you can sure get some nice reverbs/ambience in your mix. I'm really enjoying the Classic plate and the Classic Rooms. While I was researching the plugin (and being careful to spend my limited funds wisely) I was impressed that I bought it for only $49. I see that CSR used to be sold for $300+.

My DAW ( Acoustica Mixcraft 5.2) is only 32 bit, but I'm getting along well using it. BTW, don't pooh-pooh Mixcraft unless you've used it, because for the money, it sure is a terrific product. I'd tried Reaper for a short while, but I found it quite convoluted and non-intuitive. Mind you, I would probably get perfectly comfortable with it if I used it more.

As an aside, Acoustica's Pianissimo virtual Grand plugin is surprisingly good too. If you need a really good piano VSTi for general piano accompaniment tracks, you won't do much better unless you buy one of the expensive sample libraries. I bought it and Mixcraft, bundled together, for only $130 about 6 months ago. I do hope the next iteration of Mixcraft will be available in 64 bit though.

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Ah Xoc Kin - Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:05 pm

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IK products are overpriced, and you can find them on sale regularly.
I've only purchased them on sale (group buys, stupid deal of the day, promos, etc.)

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TheoM - Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:52 am

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Spring Age is the best spring reverb hands down, and BRILLIANT on guitars And so inexpensive especially as you said on their regular sales

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Ah Xoc Kin - Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:23 am

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And one thing I loved about Overloud is that they allowed me to combine offers, so when I bought TH2, SprinAge, and Mark Studio I was able to get their sale price and their academic discount.
When I had a problem, their customer support was excellent. IIRC I got replies the same day or the next day, and everything was solved quickly and to my complete satisfaction.

With IK, they don't even allow the use of Jam Points with their offers.
In terms of support I don't want to be harsh with IK. They were polite and said things like "Thanks for your patience. Our apologies for the delays."
The fact remains that they did not honor the terms of a promotion they had. IIRC, the promo was buy 1 get 2 additional titles. In summary, CSR was an eligible product for the promo. T-Racks was also an elegible product for the promo. I bought them bundled and the bundle was not eligible This was not mentioned in the terms of the promo or in the list of excluded products.

In the end, I was allowed to get 2 titles for free instead of 4 (2 for CSR and 2 for T-Racks.) They were courteous and friendly, but I still ended with less than what their website had advertised.

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ObiK - Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:04 am

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Jam Points are a great way to get discounts on IK stuff, but when we have a promo or sale where the price is already ridiculously low we don't allow the use of Jam Points. Think of them as getting a discount on anything you need when we don't have a discount going on.

When was this promo? If it was recently PM me and I'll see what I can do. We always try to go the extra mile to make sure our customers are happy.

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Ah Xoc Kin - Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:27 am

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This was last year I believe. I'm happy.

Regarding the Jam Points, using them to get a discount from your regular prices has not been a good idea for me. Usually it's cheaper via a dealer.

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ObiK - Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:22 pm

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I'm glad your happy. I can see how it would be cheaper, especially if one doesn't have that many Jam Points to begin with.

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ominopasticcione - Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:19 am

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I was willing to try CSR and dowloaded the demo, but I can't get it to work in Ableton Live 8. I mean that the VSTs don't appear in the browser and so it's impossible to launch them.
I tried with an evaluation version of Reaper and didn't have any problem instead, but Ableton Live is my main DAW and in order to choose CSR I really need it to work within Ableton.
The VSTs are 32-bit version, right?
I looked around and it looks like I'm not the only one experiencing this kind of issue, but couldn't find a universal solution and the ones I tried so far were not successfull. Anyone could help with that?

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AKJ - Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:16 am

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I do not know the CSR, but I tried the demo of Valhalla Room, I do not get the hype. my good old SpinAudio Roomverb M1 and M2 can both easily achieve a better sound (of course, this is quite subjective) and they are much more flexible//tweakable (this can hardly be denied).
Maybe, the same applies to teh CSR. Old is not always worse.

If I need 64 bit I go for the MeldaProduction MMultiBandReverb (however, I just use it single band, but since I got it in a bundle I do only have the multi-band version. I guess I would also be happy with the single band version: MReverb). It is also very teakable and even got an automatable spatial positioning system.

cheers, akj

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Integratron - Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:23 am

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I run with Live 8 no problems whatsoever. I suspect that CSR is on your system. Do a search for "CSR.dll" and you'll find where the plugs were installed.

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ominopasticcione - Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:16 am

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I find a solution on Ableton forum just now: it looks that IK plugins require Ableton to run with Administrator privileges. By Running the application as Administrator AND RESELECTING PLUGINS FOLDER (rescanning was not sufficient), CSR plugins appeared in the browser and now work correctly. Strange anyway.
Btw, I really like the way they sound.. I'm comparing them with ValhallaRoom demo and can't come up with a clear preference.
ValhallaRoom sounds more "thick" in a certain way, while CSR sound more "evolving" to me. I'll check them again later.

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pdxindy - Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:36 am

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Keep trying... you will get it eventually

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Dean Aka Nekro - Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:01 pm

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For the money and considering the quality I would just buy both Reverb plug-ins. Its great value for money $99 for all those, Add Shimmer and UberMod and $199 = Still a bargain IMveryhumbleHO

Dean

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ObiK - Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:35 pm

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Glad you got it working. If you need anymore help our support is always around for 1 on 1 help.

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AudioGuy720 - Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:23 pm

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Watch yourself Brian. You have a lot of fans (myself included) here at KVR and when your company's latest and greatest plug-ins come out we tend to gush over them if they sound good/make our mixing lives/quality easier and better.

Valhalla Room is legit. And it's DSP code is newer (2011) than CSR (2006). That's not to say that CSR sucks because it definitely doesn't but Valhalla is an improvement and when it launched it had a "project studio friendly" price. Some people even like it better than the $400 Lexicon LXP Native plug-in which is impressive.

One test I like to do to check graininess of a reverb is to clap or snap my fingers. Record the snap/clap with a condenser mic. You can really hear any graininess when doing that, if at all. Good reverb will be smoother sounding vs. poor reverb.

The other big reverb quality test is how well it layers in a mix. If the reverb can maintain depth/separation without turning the mix into mush then it's a good reverb.

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Proteinshake - Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:27 am

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With Vallhalla Room going Mac VST64 tomorrow CSR never even got a chance, I bought it the minute I read the announcement. But still good luck to IK Multimedia with their 64bit code ..

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ObiK - Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:28 am

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No one at IK said anything bad about any developers mentioned in this thread. As always use your ears to pick your tools, we like our sound to speak for our quality.

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odd - Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:38 am

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Anyone have some CSR presets they'd like to share? There was a set by Sounds Divine, but the link is down.

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antithesist - Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:28 pm

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Okay kind souls, I'm trying to make my final decision on the CSR deal. I have the hall and can't re-demo the others. What are the standout features for the room, plate and inverse (or hall, but I'm relatively familiar with that)? Also, what hardware unit is each algorithm modeled after? IK have said they can't comment on that. How close did they get? I'm kind of interested in this whether I get the full package or not. Thanks!

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munchkin - Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:14 pm

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I really love Valhalla UberMod. It's a fantastic delay (among other things.) But I still can't fall in love with their reverbs. After demoing VRoom in a number of tracks for over a week I find the sound of it to be slightly too metallic and not as smooth as CSR. No matter what settings I use, to my ears, it doesn't sit right in the mix and I still prefer CSR.

And if IK does update CSR I hope they don't lose the great sound that is so good about it now.

It's a shame I missed the TRacks group buy because I should've demoed IK's other plugins.

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Brian @ IK Multimedia - Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:59 pm

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Don't worry, we won't be changing the reverb algorithms. They are modeled on a particular lush Classic Studio Reverb that everyone knows and loves!

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digitalboytn - Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:40 pm

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Brilliant

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antithesist - Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:55 pm

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Are you giving clues or just being a... well, I probably shouldn't say what I was about to. So, all four plug-ins are modeled on one unit's algorithms? That really means a lot of what you had me searching out was just plain wrong. I saw Lexicon, AMS, Quantec, EMT, etc. If it's the PCM90/91, I guess that's kind of classic now, but then? Not so much. I'm not putting it down, it's a good reverb. That's primarily Michael Carnes' work, right? Is Warp69 not free to say what he modeled? Oh well, I may go back to the scavenger hunt later. I left off reading about Messrs. Lind and Olsen, Scope DSP and all such like. That was probably going back too far. It was interesting though. Google interlude. Maybe it's not going back too far after all:

Internet person 1: The CSR is a Lexicon PCM 91

Internet person 2: Not really, they cheapened the algorithms to get them to use less CPU. The original versions that run on the Scope card are equivalent to a PCM91.

Interesting, no?

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antithesist - Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:08 pm

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Sorry, I was confusing Brian with Peter in regard to searching. Those IK guys all look the same to me. Of course, they could be the same person: Brian Peter George St. John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno.

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@midnight - Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:19 pm

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I'm just really hoping you buy a reverb plugin so then you can go away...

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antithesist - Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:44 pm

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Ouch. Very funny. Thank you.

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chj - Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:44 pm

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deleted

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pdxindy - Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:53 pm

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Don't know if the OP is still reading, but VRoom 1.1 is out... and it includes another new reverb mode!

This is the second free update with a new reverb mode since I purchased VRoom. That is the sort of added value that I appreciate. The dev is continually exploring his art and the users benefit.

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Amon1973 - Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:17 am

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I'm glad CSR is defined as metallic and grainy by some and smooth by others and the same goes for ValhallaRoom. I don't like "ultimate opinions" when talking about processors and FX (reverb in particular), although some stuff definitely sucks.

Back in the day some disliked my Alesis Quadraverb 2 - "it's nowhere near PCM70's quality"... still, I've used it in place of some Lexicons and SPX990 and was able to program incredibly structured and deep presets.

It's a very personal matter and happy I own both.



Mmmmhhhh. No. They are not. You realise when you deal with them a little more in depth.

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AKJ - Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:40 am

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it's all about interpretation:
metallic = plate lushness
grainy = vintage touch

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AKJ - Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:53 am

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btw: look here for a shootout (which also includes MReverb and EAReverb):

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=347820

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munchkin - Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:02 am

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There is no doubt that Valhalla products are top notch and the dev puts a lot of effort into improving them. I don't think my reservations about VRoom are its lack of quality just the sound compared to CRS. I'm sure that in certain musician's hands VRoom can be part of a great mix but I'm more inspired by CSR. It's just a preference.

I have a UAD-1 and sometimes the mindset of UAD owners is quite elitist thinking that nothing compares to UAD plugins. I think this is blinkered because in my experience sometimes UAD plugs are right for a mix and not at other times. The point is that a lot of these comparisons come down to personal preference not objective analysis.

The current price of CSR and VRoom together wouldn't even buy one UAD plugin yet I much prefer them to the UAD reverbs.

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antithesist - Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:36 am

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Let it be known that all four CSR plug-ins are most likely based on the Lexicon PCM91. There, was that so hard? Digging a little deeper, they are different than their Scope DSP predecessors by the same programmer, as they are leaner in some respects for less native CPU consumption and are therefore less accurate models. How much less accurate is known to the programmer and some who have compared CSR to the Scope versions and the actual hardware.

Are they worth pennies over ten dollars each? I say heck yeah. In my case, at the very least they are probably worth it from a historical standpoint alone. It also may pay off when and if the update/upgrade rolls in. We'll just have to wait and see on that one. I also figure I might as well have the whole set even though I already have the hall. Now, please give me something I want and need for my jam points and a solution for all my redundant singles licenses.

I personally don't consider the 90 or 91 to be a classic studio reverb even at this date. That honor would go to the 224 and 480 in the Lexicon realm. If you say the the 91 is derivative of those and thereby somehow equally as vintage, you'd have to extend the same to all Lexicon's later reverbs, even their plug-ins. But whatever, believe what you want. I almost always prefer truth over hype. The former was certainly obscured by the latter, in this case.

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ObiK - Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:33 pm

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Thanks! I promise we aren't robots. We are all real people with different interests. They do come out a bit more in conversation.

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antithesist - Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:50 pm

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We now have definitive confirmation that those jokes went over two successive heads.

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Amon1973 - Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:25 pm

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Talking about delays now?

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antithesist - Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:02 pm

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Yes, and that appropriately went over my head at first.

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IbiM - Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:46 am

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CSR doesn't seem to work in Maschine software. After installation I starte the maschine software and during startup I got the error reports 'CSR Hall crashed during scan (and same with Room, Inverse,...)'

In reaper no problem but since I use maschine a lot in standalone CSR sadly will not be for me.

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miro pajic - Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:01 pm

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I still have the "Hall" (and demoed the bundle long time ago - loved it) from the IK's and own VRoom. Both cool, allthough the CSR (among all my other IKM plugins) isn't installed anymore due to some "dislikes" from my computer with C/R plugins.

I wish IKM would change the whole challenge response thing - I'd instantly buy the CSR bundle!

I love the Valhalla plugins (used in EVERY mix) too!

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vata44 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:11 pm

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I just bought CSR, I bought VRoom when it came out and sold it. Was not for me.

Not looking to start a fight, but the CSR just works better for "me".

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antithesist - Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:15 pm

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I was trying to figure out when the PCM91 came out, maybe 1996 for the 90 and 1998 for the 91? That's from searching on the SOS site. It doesn't really matter, but all the controversy over what CSR was modeled on got me wondering.

I found a couple more recent threads each of which had misleading information from the IK robots (ikbots?). I think one was something like that the modeled unit had been a studio favorite for decades. I'm paraphrasing other than the decades part. Wouldn't plural need to be two or more decades?

This is just unbelievable. As I was writing, two IK newsletters showed up. Here's some text from from one:

"Classik Studio Reverb, a suite of four high-end studio-quality reverbs modeled after popular outboard classics: Plate, Hall, Room and Inverse, can be yours for just blah, blah, blah until yada, yada, yada. Don't miss out on this incredible deal to get world-class reverb plug-ins modeled after some of the most famous hardware reverb units of all time. Get CSR today!"

That is outright lying! First, plural on classics, maybe they mean classic algorithms of the Lexicon PCM91? That's stretching it, but "modeled after some of the most famous hardware reverb units of all time?" Maybe they think that technically if there's one little thing added from an actual vintage classic, which I doubt anyway, that it would make the statement legally viable, or maybe it's just the osmotic proximity effect of the developer's vintage collection, which I wonder if he had even yet accumulated at the time of coding CSR?

Oh well, my blood pressure's back to its normal high level now. Let it go. Let it go. I still may get them at the $49 less 15% deal. After all, how could I pass up models of some of the most famous hardware reverb units of all time for ten bucks or so each, even if that's not really what they are?

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vata44 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:40 am

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Yeah man... let it go. Either enjoy their sound and figure out how they can help you achieve your dreams or continue nit-picking and not being happy over something you have no control over. Lots of people are happy, lots of people and blah and lots of people dislike it. Figure it out and move on happily.

peace

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antithesist - Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:44 am

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Yeah, I know.

I'm moving on after I find my horse.

Rocinante! Rocinante!

We'll be back though.

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el-bo (formerly ebow) - Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:11 pm

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