KVR :: Instruments » Any Tone 2 Saurus users? [View Original Topic]
There are 63 posts in this topic.

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cyberheater - Wed May 02, 2012 6:38 am

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I'm thinking of buying this but the last thread dissolved into a Saurus vs Diva contest.

What do you think of Saurus and how does it stack up to other similarly priced software?

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LeVzi - Wed May 02, 2012 6:48 am

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Download the demo, see for yourself Well worth checking out.

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zvenx - Wed May 02, 2012 6:50 am

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+1

rsp

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 6:57 am

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Hi,

as i already mentioned in the Saurus thread i like Saurus very much. It got a great combination of sound, features GUI and CPU use.

BTW i just got ElectraX with the expansions too.


Ingo

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cyberheater - Wed May 02, 2012 7:02 am

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Thanks for the comments guys. I did download the demo but I'd like to know how it stacks up against other synths for around the same money.

I quite liked it. There are plenty of presets as well which is great.

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zvenx - Wed May 02, 2012 7:05 am

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what are the similarly priced synths?
rsp

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 7:09 am

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This is not an emulation of an specific synth (while the 12 dB seem to be close to the MS-20) so it's best to use it for what it is.
Anyway this is capable of either very warm and analog sounding up to harsh and more digital sounds. The oscillator section is very interesting as for any waveform you could use the "PW" knob which in some cases results in a kind of "wavetable morph".
I don't know exactly about the demo but the manual should be in the installation directory (called "Saurus.pdf").


Ingo

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PietW. - Wed May 02, 2012 7:37 am

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If you are really good "analog sound" want, DIVA is the first choice. Test first demos.

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 7:43 am

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There we have it again...


Ingo

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Bronto Scorpio - Wed May 02, 2012 7:45 am

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+1
It's quite nice imo! It doesn't blow me away or something but for that price you get a quite good sounding synth which covers most basic synth sounds and a little bit more

Regarding similar priced synths:

If I had to choose a synth for 99$ I'd get something different though. Saurus sounds OK-ish to me but nothing more (That's entirely subjective of course!!!).

U-He ACE and Vember Audio Surge are really great for example!
ACE would probably make more sense since it can sound more analog-ish than Surge (I guess you are after analog-ish sounds)

Cheers
Dennis

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Sequent - Wed May 02, 2012 7:55 am

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Saurus seems like a pretty good choice. Obviously Diva is another choice. It all depends on your needs, your budget, your computer spec, and what you already have.

I would say the main thing also is whether you like the sound and whether you like the workflow. If all of those things click with you then definitely go for it. The best synth in the world isn't going to do you any good if you don't feel comfortable working with it and if you don't like the sound.

As I said, Diva is another choice and there are many other choices. I think it's good that we have a variety of software options available. Just like Roland is not the only game in town as far as hardware is concerned, and neither is Korg, etc., etc.

Personally, I held off and as far as Tone2, I think I'm going to save up and sometime go for Elektra because I like the sound and I like what it has to offer. But that is only in my case... for analog I have well... the real thing.

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 7:57 am

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I am currently working on sounds for an upcoming expansion for Saurus.
For those who ask: No i was no beta tester for the first release, i got Saurus with the official release.

Here is a Soundcloud set of the demos i made so far, the last two were only published at the Tone2 forum so far:
http://soundcloud.com/ingoweidner/sets/saurus-demos

The last song uses only my own sounds for Saurus, also for the Drums.

In the first songs there is a little crackling which could not be heard in the original WAV files.

More demos will follow.


Ingo

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PietW. - Wed May 02, 2012 8:01 am

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+1

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zvenx - Wed May 02, 2012 8:07 am

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Ingo, sorry but I dont' like the oxygene sound demo at all, it sounds like you took off all the lower frequency.

rsp

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 8:30 am

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No i didn't, i just used a Compressor. I am also not observing that lack of low end (at least not in the way you describe), especially for the bass sound.
For the Abacab track i used both an EQ (Stillwell VibeEQ) and a Compressor (Stillwell Bombardier Buss Compressor).

It's also possible that the WAV file sounds a bit better in comparison to the Soundcloud file.

In the 5th demo i made a oomparison of Saurus without and with an EQ, only in the range around 110 Hz (Low Shelf). Something like a "Bass Boost" feature (like an EQ just for low frequencies) in Saurus would be great somehow. In some cases the built-in psycho acoustic processing (= "Boost" On/Off) gives some nice results too.


Ingo

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LeVzi - Wed May 02, 2012 8:37 am

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I cannot understand the blatant ignorance of some people.

He asked how it stacks up against similarly priced alternatives.

Saurus = $142 (edited)

DIVA = $225

The sound doesn't come into question.

I would say ACE is the one to compare to in the same price band. Maybe also Synthmaster, not sure how it fares on the analoguesque sounds but it should do alright, I cannot really offer too much insight into that one as I don't own it.

My minds gone completely blank to be honest, I cannot think of many in that price bracket. Would be good to know a few more.

EDIT : I dunno anything about Surge either, but it's been mentioned too, so worth checking that out. But what I would say is with all these suggestions, get on the demo's, and A/B them yourselves, you'll find one you want that way

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olikana - Wed May 02, 2012 8:44 am

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i only tried the demo weeks ago.
it sounded good and i would have bought it in an instant if i didn't have Diva allready and if the demo had let me engage with it a little more to fall for it.
i'm not aware of any other softsynths with 0 delay feedback filters apart from Diva and Saurus. so for me these are the only 2 synths worth having..
was the Saurus price revised? i thught it was much more than 99$...at that price there's nothing else worth having that i know of (unless u wanna hear that awful plasticky smudged shaping of yesteryears softsynth filters).

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zvenx - Wed May 02, 2012 8:48 am

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I am coparing it to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_I2ch8_TXc

and I guess the bass synth on the original has way more meat and bottom end to me than your demo above...
just a matter of taste, but it was always the bass synth that always attracted me more than the lead etc..
just my 2 cents
rsp

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 8:50 am

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AFAIK the price did not change. It is 99 Euros or 119$:
http://tone2.com/html/shop.html

I got when it was released and i paid 99 Euros (currently 1 Euro is around 1,32$ ).


Ingo

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cyberheater - Wed May 02, 2012 8:50 am

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Thanks guys. I've already got Ace but hardly ever use it for some reason. I've also got Ultra VA and compared Ultra VA to the Saurus demo. I think Ultra VA stacks up pretty good.

I have to say I really like the interface for Saurus. Ultra VA is quite hard to use but it's capable of a wide spectrum of sounds and hardly uses any CPU.

Also. Can't use DIVA. It just uses too much CPU on my 2 year old Macbook Pro.

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 8:54 am

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I did not try to do 1:1 copies of all sounds except the Brass sound (which is still "work in progress" too). Maybe that helps. Jarre also used some heavy processing for the track and as you could hear the Abacab example sounds different as i used an EQ for that.
Originally i did not even want to use a Compressor for the Oxygene track to get a result without external FXs.

And of course Jarre used real analog synths so that comparison is a bit unfair maybe.


Ingo

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zvenx - Wed May 02, 2012 8:59 am

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.......... have a response to your last line but that would restart the whole Diva Saurus debate
rsp

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zvenx - Wed May 02, 2012 9:01 am

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have you tried the Diva 1.1 RC2 or so beta's? they are a huge difference in cpu usage, especially with a 2 year old mbp.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4907378#4907378


rsp

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ariston - Wed May 02, 2012 9:01 am

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Saurus is a very nice synth that, as has been mentioned, can do the "analogue emulation thing" quite well. Sonically, I'd say Ace is the far better option, but there is that workflow thingy... if you're unaccustomed to dragging little virtual cables around and patching anything into almost everything like a mad sonic scientist, it might just baffle you to the point of dropping it. Saurus, on the other hand, has a simplified set of controls that will enable you to get pleasing results very quickly.

While I think Saurus has enough going for it to be able to offer its own individual take on VA, there are a few points that I'd criticize: the filter drive and FM options are fickle, and can sound incredibly ugly if pushed. The "tube" effect is also best set to no higher than 10%, anything beyond that will sound decidedly digital and harsh. Often-used functions are relegated to the mod matrix, which is quite cumbersome. The upside to that: the big, friendly knobs that are gobbling up your screen real estate.

In essence, I'd say: if you're a Sound Designer (sorry, Dean) or aspire to be one, and have the CPU for it, get Ace. If you want instant gratification, get Saurus.

other contender in the same $ area are Image Line's Sawer, and Olga, both of which are loosely based on faulty Soviet synthesizer tech, meaning they're unruly and full of character. Definitely worth checking out.

edit: so you've already got Ace. Bollocks.

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 9:23 am

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I just deleted my Saurus/Diva comparison from Soundcloud as i don't want to contribute to that discussion anymore.


Ingo

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pdxindy - Wed May 02, 2012 9:42 am

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I thought Diva is $179

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classic - Wed May 02, 2012 9:44 am

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I won saurus, but I also found, I never use it. Its somehow not my soundworld.
Same with Imposcar 2. I bought it its NFR now like the saurus, I am not allowed to sell ore trade and I never use them.
I would prefer to have sylenth or twist, but no way out, so this for sure cool synths are just part of my harddrive and no one I can do something good with it:(

Well...........no hope for a simple trade.....(cry)

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LeVzi - Wed May 02, 2012 9:49 am

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Its £139 to me, which is $225

My bad though, Saurus is $142 not $119 (£88 )

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GeorgeZ - Wed May 02, 2012 9:53 am

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Well, what else matters then. That looks like a pass to me... that is, unless if you buy synths based on their status according to some randoms on a forum...

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dathyr1 - Wed May 02, 2012 9:54 am

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Question for anyone using the Saurus. I am using the demo at this time.

I find this Synth doesnt quite play like allot of my other Synths I have.

Has to do when using the Sustain pedal. I do allot of repetitive broken chords/arpeggios in both hands with holding down the Sustain pedal. I do this allot with short duration sounding instruments.

I find with this Synth, It will only play the notes one/first time, after that the notes are silence. No sound on repetitive notes with sustain pedal down.

If you lift up the sustain pedal, the notes will sound again.

I do allot of this doing some guitar sounding techiques on the keyboard.

Wonder if any of you get the same thing on your Saurus.

I sent in two but requests to Tone2, but no responces on this topic.

I will not buy it until I find out if this is a bug or the way it is supposed to work. The sounds are not bad for me for what I compose.

thanks for any info on this,

Dave

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dathyr1 - Wed May 02, 2012 9:57 am

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My one sentance should be.

bug requests. not but requests.

sorry about that,

Dave

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LeVzi - Wed May 02, 2012 10:01 am

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Hi Dave,

Just sent you a pm here

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Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 10:06 am

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at the shop they write either 99 Euros or 119$, same if you proceed to Share-it. The price in GBP is 88,30.


Ingo

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zvenx - Wed May 02, 2012 10:09 am

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the 142 may include VAT?
yes? no?
rsp

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LeVzi - Wed May 02, 2012 10:11 am

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Yeah tax inclusive.

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Bastiaan from Tone2.com - Wed May 02, 2012 10:35 am

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Hi Dave,

Not sure what happened but I've actually sent three replies to you (one on the 22nd and two on the 29th of April), they didn't bounce so I reckon they're either in your spam box or something else went wrong.

I'll PM you my last reply. In short the answer was that the sustain pedal problem is something we are looking into at the moment and will try to fix for the next release.

I hope that answers your question and sorry for the inconvenience of having to wait for the answer.

-Bastiaan-

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xh3rv - Wed May 02, 2012 10:46 am

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Sort of hate to mention this , the technical arguments can explain some sonic behaviors but not why the sound is worth using. Also, I may say something foolish here - not trying but this is pushing past my limits a bit in terms of mathematical knowledge.

Technically - I believe more or less 0-delay-feedback has a specific meaning for Diva. The feedback term as used in reference to Diva implies a bit (or maybe a good exponential number of bits...) more than it might seem, carries some specific weight that's not obvious.

In the end, everything in a digital filter has to boil down to a single output equation solvable in polynomial time, and for real-time performance that's a not-too-complicated polynomial.

Digital circuits have tended to be idealized relative to analog circuits constructed out of several components. These multiple components, especially in something like a synth filter which can be nicer when a bit nasty, can be abstracted somewhat down to two things that make computation difficult - non-linear behavior, and feedback. Non-linearity is by definition not polynomial, so approximations need to be used, although often this isn't too onerous. However, realistic feedback - at analog rates, essentially instantaneous - on top of this explodes complexity in such a way that for plausibly fast computation the problem has to be transformed into a different branch of mathematics, differential equations.

This is a bit of a Faustian gambit; the transformed problem will be quite a bit trickier on the surface, but may ultimately become computationally more feasible as complexity blows up, especially with complex dynamics where small parameter changes can result in chaotic output changes.

I believe for Diva solutions for this new type of problem are in a sense constructing a digital circuit - something that can be calculated arithmetically in a reasonable amount of time - on a case-by-case basis that can be verified as correct a little later, peeking some samples ahead, thus giving an illusion of something like time travel I imagine the actual code is a bit streamlined relative to several steps in the conceptual outline, as well.

I'd love to hear more from Tone2 about what goes in Saurus; it doesn't matter at all as to whether or not something actually sounds *good* or not, but I think every once in a while it can actually help understanding some of the feel of a knob or a technique, which is also obviously huge for getting something to sing.

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zvenx - Wed May 02, 2012 10:58 am

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I don't think :

that part is correct....linearity is a polynomial of order up to 1...above 1 for instance x squared is a non linear system......

rsp

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xh3rv - Wed May 02, 2012 12:14 pm

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Ahh, this is a bit nuanced - Linear here isn't on numeric basis, but I think it's valid to say on basis of number of operations required to compute on a microprocessor. Eg - a trig function isn't exactly computable but approximations up to desired accuracy are, and some logic can construct piece-wise compositions thereof, this sort of math

[e]. Of course you're right though XD ... in terms of filters linear means boring linear, as opposed to fun linear like matrices and orthonormals. I didn't figure that.

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hakey - Wed May 02, 2012 1:33 pm

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I thought the nonlinearity with filters was due to feedback behaviour.

Isn't it nonlinear differential equations that are involved in modelling feedback, rather than nonlinear algebraic equations (polynomial equations), or is it both?

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xh3rv - Wed May 02, 2012 8:36 pm

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There's exceptionally tricky behavior with multiple components, each with nonlinear features, and with feedback from the output back into the original input, and calculated at 0-delay. This is a lot of conditions but meeting them leads to impressive results. Analytically the domain isn't simply the input signal anymore, or the 1-delay case of the input plus the previous output, but input plus something essentially functional. So mathematically the challenge is due to feedback behavior with nonlinear components, but there are less challenging / less computationally intensive ways of doing things where nonlinearity is not so integrated with feedback.

From the realization that the domain is more sophisticated than it used to be, theory around differential equations offers a lot of different ways to move forward, but no panacea. There are different classes of problems. I'm assuming Diva's filters (other than the MS20 or one revision of MS20, which were exceptionally plausible to solve symbolically due to low component count, I think Urs mentioned) are constructed to be the type that can be brute-forced with numeric methods - successive approximation schemes - but describing that in detail is beyond me.

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xamido - Wed May 02, 2012 9:03 pm

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I use it all the time now. I like it. The sound is not like diva, but it's a very efficient synth. Fun to program for sound that musically works. Not for hardcore sound designer though.

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GeorgeZ - Wed May 02, 2012 9:10 pm

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I beg to differ

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xamido - Wed May 02, 2012 9:27 pm

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As in....?

By hardcore i'm comparing it with my synthmaster which is a beast.

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Gucky - Wed May 02, 2012 9:47 pm

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I like the Saurus synth.
Let speak the Saurus for itself I made a Song with Saurus as main synth.
Here it is:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4909399#4909399

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GeorgeZ - Wed May 02, 2012 9:52 pm

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Ye, I have SM as well (...and it!), they are completely different beasts though right? If you mean purely complexity wise from a technical parameter number point of view, ye sure, but for the sound it self, and the variety it offers (and the complexity and luchness of the sound, not the technical broohaha per se), it's right up there in quality I think. Just my 2c of course.

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xamido - Wed May 02, 2012 10:00 pm

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Agree with you for that. The sound quality is never a doubt for me with saurus.

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cyberheater - Wed May 02, 2012 10:43 pm

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Nice. Sounds very analogue and detailed.

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pdxindy - Thu May 03, 2012 12:03 am

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I think it is an intriguing synth for sound designers. Interesting set of controls and a lot of functionality in the mod matrix. I wish it used more cpu in exchange for better sound quality though. Push the synth and the sound easily falls apart. Stay in the safe range and it is fine. Some people will not care about that, but I like to explore the edges.

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mcnoone - Thu May 03, 2012 12:10 am

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Hey there...that track sounds freakin amazing.
Thanks for that.
Yea it's a cool synth, but I'm so overloaded now, I can't think of getting anything new for a while.

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pdxindy - Thu May 03, 2012 12:50 am

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Excellent track!

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brok landers - Thu May 03, 2012 12:56 am

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not really. you could quite convincingly reproduce the original track with saurus. only one exeption: due to the lack of a phaser in saurus the eminent phaserstrings can't be done from within saurus (also the typical bbd chorussed strings themself are a bit more on the hard side). but all the other sounds you could easily reproduce with saurus. you could start f.e. with using only one osc for the lead or disable the chorus.

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Lotuzia - Thu May 03, 2012 1:12 am

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Just fyi Xils-Lab synths have 0 delay feedback filters for 3 years.

Having said that I'm out, and will stay out, of this thread about Saurus .......

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hakey - Thu May 03, 2012 1:46 am

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So that's a yes?

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Bronto Scorpio - Thu May 03, 2012 2:08 am

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+1

This album was done entirely on freeware synths (and a Small Stone phaser for the strings iirc) 4 years ago for example: http://www.4-3-3-4.de/index.htm

Sounds absolutely convincing imo. Today the Small Stone could easily replaced with ArtsAcoustic Big Rock for example.

Cheers
Dennis

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olikana - Thu May 03, 2012 3:41 am

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not true, and last time i checked they still don't.
keep enjoying of your plasticky zaps

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ariston - Thu May 03, 2012 4:01 am

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You forgot to

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Lotuzia - Thu May 03, 2012 4:10 am

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How comtemptuous .....

I would have liked to ask you "how did you checked them" cos I just think you dont have the first clue or knowledge of how to check if a filter is 0df or not, but I'll just leave it like that, as it's a Saurus thread.

Oh yes .... and

Now back to Saurus. And whatever you answer I won't be in this thread again. This was just to try to share some true information. And its done.

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Mogular - Thu May 03, 2012 4:14 am

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I remember Urs posted the method of testing if a filter has zero-delay feedback, but I am stuffed if I can find it. Can someone please enlighten me?

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Ingonator - Thu May 03, 2012 7:54 am

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I already mentioned that i did not do 1:1 copies of all sounds. I fact only the Brass was specifically designed for Oxygene 4.
The other sounds were done before i had the idea to use them in that track.

BTW my quote you mention was about the fact that i used an almost "dry" song except for internal FXs and a Compressor. opposing to that Jarre first used real analog synths and second heavy processing in his track. In the Abacab example i used an EQ too so it sounds slightly different.


Ingo

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xh3rv - Thu May 03, 2012 8:24 am

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Y... ack the nonlinear and the feedback behaviors are functionally integrated in such a way that they can't be computed independently in series as is much more conventional in digital filters when there's 0-delay-feedback with multiple nonlinearities in the feedback block

Yes

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hakey - Thu May 03, 2012 9:23 am

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Oh well, I guess it's beyond my O level maths... I thought feedback in physical systems was modelled using iterative functions, and polynomial equations don't look iterative to my untutored eye. But I'm getting that it's slightly more complicated than that.

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xh3rv - Thu May 03, 2012 12:13 pm

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Ah, there's a slight point here about polynomial time (operations required to achieve a computational result expressed as a polynomial per element n, something like n^3 (bad) or n log n (not so bad)) versus polynomial equations (which tend to be computable in polynomial time or approximated if there's transcendentals or it's some infinite series, but I'm just making excuses, I probably screwed it up a bit earlier in the thread )

Getting an iterative function that has good computational performance as well as numerical accuracy is I think the general gist of things, but again it's not the case that feedback and nonlinearity are cleanly separated in this sort of function. (I think there are some 'magic' numbers that sort of seed something about the function describing the filters that end up in the kinds of numeric solutions that Diva uses, as well, which have a pretty deep theoretical entanglement ...)

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There are 63 posts in this topic.