KVR :: View topic - What are some of the better software Wavetable synths?

KVR :: Instruments » What are some of the better software Wavetable synths? [View Original Topic]
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stikygum - Wed May 02, 2012 7:44 pm

Wondering what everyone considers to be good software wavetable synths. I have a Waldorf Microwave 1 and love it. Is there anything similar in software form?

Seriously, I don't care if there isn't because I have a MW1 anyways. I am just curious what plugin everyone likes to use for wavetable synthesis.

jdnz - Wed May 02, 2012 8:23 pm

I guess the obvious answer would be Waldorf's Largo

personally I'm a big fan of cakewalk's rapture for that sort of stuff though

Ingonator - Wed May 02, 2012 8:35 pm

- Waldorf Largo
- Waldorf PPG Wave 3.V
- KV331 Audio Synthmaster 2.5 (you could create your own wavetables from 2-16 waveforms)
- U-He Zebra
- ConcreteFX Kubik
- Tone2 ElectraX got some wavetables too and you could do resynthesis of your own single cycles or samples

Asuyuka - Wed May 02, 2012 9:02 pm

There's the WaveSimD, an emulation of the PPG Wave 2.2 v6. Smile

http://www.hermannseib.com/english/synths/ppg/wavesim.htm

Love this guy, too.

There's also INTRO:

http://www.sitesled.com/members/bksl/

It's not as advanced, but it makes some pretty nice sounds. Not entirely like Palm's stuff, but good nonetheless. I like toying with VS-1 there, as well-- it's not a Wavetable sim, but it's got some good sound to it. Smile

digitalboytn - Wed May 02, 2012 9:17 pm

Rapture works for me...

That and Zebra are my daily workhorses...

EvilDragon - Wed May 02, 2012 10:16 pm

Except Rapture is not a true wavetable (as in "PPG, Waldorf") synth. Smile

BDeep - Wed May 02, 2012 10:48 pm

Albeit somewhat different in character than a MW1/MW2, NI Massive also utilizes its own take on wavetable synthesis.

digitalboytn - Thu May 03, 2012 2:56 am

EvilDragon wrote:

Except Rapture is not a true wavetable (as in "PPG, Waldorf") synth. Smile

Mmmmm...Sorry about that...My Bad...

I know that it's advertised as a wavetable synth that actually happens to load wavetables as it's oscillators,but it's obviously not a wavetable synth at all.

It's a pumpkin D'oh!

"At the heart of Rapture's sound engine are powerful, multi-mode, wavetable oscillators"

"Rapture is described as "the ultimate wavetable synthesizer..."

bronxsound - Thu May 03, 2012 3:01 am

if i remeber correctly Dune and Zebra also feature wavetable synthesis...

Teksonik - Thu May 03, 2012 3:08 am

"the Microwave uses the same wavetables from the PPG Wave 2.3"

So the obvious answer would be.........

digitalboytn - Thu May 03, 2012 3:15 am

Teksonik wrote:

"the Microwave uses the same wavetables from the PPG Wave 2.3"

So the obvious answer would be.........

The Pumpkin from Cakewalk Smile

Teksonik - Thu May 03, 2012 3:18 am

digitalboytn wrote:

Teksonik wrote:

"the Microwave uses the same wavetables from the PPG Wave 2.3"

So the obvious answer would be.........

The Pumpkin from Cakewalk Smile

Pumpkin 2.3

projectdan - Thu May 03, 2012 3:21 am

Vaz Modular and Vaz 2010 (I think this does wavetables).

VariKusBrainZ - Thu May 03, 2012 3:36 am

No mention fo the Korg Wavestation, youre all nuts!!

Its the cheapest and best one out there!!!
Ok, Kubik is a little cheaper :p

T-CM11 - Thu May 03, 2012 3:38 am

projectdan wrote:

Vaz Modular and Vaz 2010 (I think this does wavetables).

And Vaz Plus.

Chad@PA - Thu May 03, 2012 3:46 am

Teksonik wrote:

digitalboytn wrote:

Teksonik wrote:

"the Microwave uses the same wavetables from the PPG Wave 2.3"

So the obvious answer would be.........

The Pumpkin from Cakewalk Smile

Pumpkin 2.3

Make mine a Punkin x 2.3 Smile

Teksonik - Thu May 03, 2012 3:48 am

Wow that looks tasty....thanks for making me thirsty....right before I'm going to work....... Mad

osiris - Thu May 03, 2012 3:58 am

Massive

blacktomcat666 - Thu May 03, 2012 4:02 am

Wusikstation also allows wavetable synthesis with it's sample loop position modulation.

T-CM11 - Thu May 03, 2012 4:03 am

Alchemy

DevonB - Thu May 03, 2012 4:06 am

EvilDragon wrote:

Except Rapture is not a true wavetable (as in "PPG, Waldorf") synth. Smile

Thank you! Smile

I would suggest for a good read the following Wikipedia page on what Wavetable synthesis is about and other abuses of the term. Smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis

As a side note, did anyone emulate Ensoniq's Transwaves in the VFX/SQR/Fizmo's in a VST? Can't recall anything off the top of my head.

Devon

T-CM11 - Thu May 03, 2012 4:08 am

DevonB wrote:

As a side note, did anyone emulate Ensoniq's Transwaves in the VFX/SQR/Fizmo's in a VST? Can't recall anything off the top of my head.

This one? http://www.scoreforsale.com/html/sq8l.html

blacktomcat666 - Thu May 03, 2012 4:16 am

T-CM11 wrote:

DevonB wrote:

As a side note, did anyone emulate Ensoniq's Transwaves in the VFX/SQR/Fizmo's in a VST? Can't recall anything off the top of my head.

This one? http://www.scoreforsale.com/html/sq8l.html

No, this isn't a wavetable/transwave synth.

Lotuzia - Thu May 03, 2012 4:17 am

SynthMaster also does WT.

As MAssive, Korg WS, all Waldorf, and ...... Vember Audio Surge. I think zero vector was also using wavetables iirc.

V-GER - Thu May 03, 2012 4:19 am

I have so far been quite happy with Vaz Modular as it allows me to do various kinds of hybrid sounds in a modular environment (a little basic FM, throwing the wavetables in the granular oscillator and mucking about with them there, letting the wavetables modulate for instance filters, doing parallell filtering that most PPG style wavetable synth I've heard of so far wouldn't be capable of etc) but am I missing out on something that dedicated PPG style wavetable synthesis softsynths offer? Could I possibly venture deeper into the world of that kind of synthesis with something dedicated to that type of synthesis and that type only? Or should I just stick to being happy in my hybrid world? Is that quiestion even possible to answer in any kind of meaningful manner? Any opinions?

Don't mean to go offtopic (so sorry if anyone thinks I do), this seems relevant to me in a comparisasion.

bronxsound - Thu May 03, 2012 4:27 am

T-CM11 wrote:

DevonB wrote:

As a side note, did anyone emulate Ensoniq's Transwaves in the VFX/SQR/Fizmo's in a VST? Can't recall anything off the top of my head.

This one? http://www.scoreforsale.com/html/sq8l.html

this one is excellent

Vectorman - Thu May 03, 2012 4:51 am

Obviously Waldorf PPG 3.V is the quickest path to Microwave-like sounds in software (definitely more so than Largo, on which the oscillators lack the grit of the PPG/MW1). I wasn't able to get perfect matches with a couple of MW1 patches I tried to duplicate, but I guess that's not surprising; one has real CEM filters while the other has a software emulation of SSM, and there are probably differences in oscillator playback rate and transposition algo's too. 3.V also lacks the MW's multi-stage wave envelope.

In addition to 3.V, my wavetable scanning workhorses are Zebra and NI Massive. Massive has a very glossy, modern sound that's great for spacey, atmospheric sweeps, metallic/plucky comping sounds, icy pads, etc. Zebra is definitely the deepest of the three. It's fun to use Waldorf-esque wavetables in Zebra, since you can get sounds that are somewhat evocative of a PPG but with way more programming possibilities. It's a cleaner, more hi-fi sound than a PPG, of course, but when using Waldorf 3.V, I have True PPG mode turned off half the time; the gritty artifacts of the PPG and Microwave can make for great crunchy basses, but it's often not so pleasing in the higher registers.

tony tony chopper - Thu May 03, 2012 5:06 am

in Harmor if you hold shift while dropping single-cycles onto the image, it stacks them & you can use the image as a wavetable (with proper interpolation between them).

Is there any format to store wavetables out there btw? Or what are those synths using, separate single-cycles, single-cycles stacked in a single wav file, proprietary bank formats?

projectdan - Thu May 03, 2012 5:07 am

DevonB wrote:

As a side note, did anyone emulate Ensoniq's Transwaves in the VFX/SQR/Fizmo's in a VST? Can't recall anything off the top of my head.
Devon

I think xoxos Steam was supposed to be based on the Fizmo.

chroma - Thu May 03, 2012 5:14 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

that's very cool trick - will have to try it.

massive stores its wavetables as single-cycles stacked in a single wav file. ensoniq transwaves are similar.

V-GER - Thu May 03, 2012 6:09 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

Is there any format to store wavetables out there btw? Or what are those synths using, separate single-cycles, single-cycles stacked in a single wav file, proprietary bank formats?

Vaz Modular and a bunch of others read a single wav file with a loop that starts at the very beginning and where the relation of the length of the loop and the total length of the wav file defines the number of wavetables. For instance for 64 wavetables the loop needs to be excactly in 64th of the wav files length (needs to be set in samples and not milliseconds to be accurat enough if you're editing a wav in something like Wavosaur). Wavetablemakers/editors such as "Komplex - Term" (have a look at http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=334828&start=0, "only" 33 wavetables or so though..) makes them with loop points defined like this all ready to go if you choose wav format. Some make wavfiles without loop points, one for Largo does this (EDIT: sorry, I meant one for Blofeld - Largo is considered by some to be the software equivalent but others beg to differ). Wavetable wavs with loop points seem the way to go for me as they'll be more compatible.

There's also a dedicated wavetable format, these files end with ".wt" - I have no experience with those and not sure if they contain any additional information that make them a better choice for synths that'll load them.

And finally some synths load a bunch of single-cycle wavs, seems a lot of hassle to me so never bothered with that option.. Probably a lot of flexibility on offer for those who do though...

tony tony chopper - Thu May 03, 2012 6:12 am

Quote:

interesting

I couldn't find any of such wavetables online, though. Are there popular places for that?

blacktomcat666 - Thu May 03, 2012 6:20 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

Quote:

interesting

I couldn't find any of such wavetables online, though. Are there popular places for that?

My tool can build them from scratch or by resynthesis.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=334828&start=0

Although it was to support the Komplexer with it's 33 wavetable entries, you can render these tables to wav with loop at the very beginning (up to 1024 entries = 33 source entries + 991 interpolation slices for a smooth transition).

tony tony chopper - Thu May 03, 2012 6:47 am

So which format would be the most widely used?
I'd rather pick one, even though both seem as simple (WT format looks extremely simple, and reading wav files is no problem either). Or is WT specific to Surge?

Also I assume that there's nothing particular (a signature or mark) in wav wavetables so that they can be autodetected as such?

LeVzi - Thu May 03, 2012 6:52 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

I dont think there is any specialist ident to state the file is a wavetable, as you can load any wav into ElectraX as a WT and it will work.

tony tony chopper - Thu May 03, 2012 6:59 am

Quote:

I dont think there is any specialist ident to state the file is a wavetable, as you can load any wav into ElectraX as a WT and it will work.

yes but for me the way it'll be interpreted will depend on the content, especially if the data isn't continuous

Quote:

My tool can build them from scratch or by resynthesis.

nice look but weird in use btw (took me time to figure out how to save)

LeVzi - Thu May 03, 2012 7:05 am

Well I just tested that in ElectraX and it said

Quote:

"The file contains more than 4096 samples. ElectraX will now auto tune it, and resynthesize a wavetable from the middle of this file"

So that's how it works. Pretty cool Very Happy

tony tony chopper - Thu May 03, 2012 7:09 am

I already have this kind of autodetection, to differenciate single-cycles from full samples, but in Harmor full samples work as well.

I noticed Komplex Term saves with a middle note at F5 and a fine tune of 76.5, maybe this would be a way to detect this, if it's any reliable.

What's silly is that both are handling it in the freq domain, only to export to time domain in-between Smile

blacktomcat666 - Thu May 03, 2012 8:32 am

[quote="tony tony chopper"]

Quote:

My tool can build them from scratch or by resynthesis.

nice look but weird in use btw (took me time to figure out how to save)

If I don't lose interest in music and programming there'll be a manual some day.

Rolling Eyes

EvilDragon - Thu May 03, 2012 8:53 am

digitalboytn wrote:

I know that it's advertised as a wavetable synth that actually happens to load wavetables as it's oscillators,but it's obviously not a wavetable synth at all.

It's a pumpkin D'oh!

"At the heart of Rapture's sound engine are powerful, multi-mode, wavetable oscillators"

"Rapture is described as "the ultimate wavetable synthesizer..."

Don't be ridiculous. It loads SINGLE-CYCLE waveforms. Wavetable (in true PPG/Waldorf sense) are interpolating between a bunch of single-cycle waveforms on the fly.

There are a lot of discussions about this topic everywhere. I'm on the side which says that Rapture was mis-marketed as it's not a true wavetable synth.

LeVzi - Thu May 03, 2012 8:55 am

Is this a good time to say

"I WANT TO BE ABLE TO IMPORT WAVETABLES INTO MASSIVE"

/outcry

whyterabbyt - Thu May 03, 2012 9:07 am

EvilDragon wrote:

digitalboytn wrote:

I know that it's advertised as a wavetable synth that actually happens to load wavetables as it's oscillators,but it's obviously not a wavetable synth at all.

It's a pumpkin D'oh!

"At the heart of Rapture's sound engine are powerful, multi-mode, wavetable oscillators"

"Rapture is described as "the ultimate wavetable synthesizer..."

Yes, and there - are - two sides. Academic/technical terminology and non-definitive casual usage. Some casual usage however also accepts more definitive usage eg 'scanned wave tables'

It's thoroughly incorrect to state that the technical term is -wrong- though. And it's easy to be be more definitive in casual usage.

EvilDragon - Thu May 03, 2012 9:12 am

As far as I know, PPG popularized the term "wavetable synthesis". It was not until Creative SoundBlaster that the term "wavetable" was refered to a single sample.

Wavetable (as "god", Wolfgang Palm Very Happy

created it) is one thing.
Table-lookup oscillator is another.
Sample-based synthesis is yet another.
And all three of those get mixed up interchangably.

whyterabbyt - Thu May 03, 2012 9:19 am

EvilDragon wrote:

As far as I know, PPG popularized the term "wavetable synthesis". It was not until Creative SoundBlaster that the term "wavetable" was refered to a single sample.
.

For common parlance, maybe. In technical useage, ie the research papers by the folk who invent this stuff rather than implement it, the term is used differently. I gave references in the last thread about this, only a month or two ago, I don't need to do it again.

Scientific terminology is not made 'wrong' just because common useage uses one of those terms differently.

EvilDragon - Thu May 03, 2012 9:34 am

I wonder (genuinely so) was the first mention of the term "wavetable" as a single-cycle waveform used in scientific circles before PPG Wave (where it was used for a series of single-cycle waveforms being scanned through with a pointer) or after...

PietW. - Thu May 03, 2012 10:43 am

stikygum wrote:

For a Waldorf Microwave, there is no Softwarderivat. No largo or no PPG 3.V. The microwave is and will remain unique, and I curse the day that I sold him.

whyterabbyt - Thu May 03, 2012 10:50 am

EvilDragon wrote:

Ive been unable to confirm either way. Ive seen references to papers which might predate PPG's useage, but I cant locate them to check. And the lack of an obvious and findable origin doesnt mean there is no such origin. Ive certainly known of the scientific useage since the mid 80s myself... its not a recent cooption, as it were.

The distinction is ostensibly one between (2 to N complete waveform cycles) and (1 to N complete waveform cycles) though. In a hierarchy of algorithms (2 to N) is a subset of (1 to N) but not vice versa, so you can see why the technical definition is 'more complete'

The problem for me is that in some common useage accepts that 'wavetable' refers to (2 to N), it doesnt do so definitively. Other common useage exists with modifiers (eg 'scanned wavetable') to explicitly differentiate the kind of thing done by PPG and others. Differentiation is good, IMO, it reduces confusion.

However I find that subscribers to the 'PPG own the term wavetable' opinion cant actually provide an as-accepted common-use term for the case of single-cycle waves, or NxN cycle 2-or-more dimensional tables, whereas both fit within the scientific hierarchy.

Its also worth noting that contemporary competitors to PPG (eg Korg) used their own terminology (ie wave sequencing), so originally 'wavetable' was sort of used as a technology 'brand name' (kinda like Arturia's AET versus FXpansion DCAM, for their proprietry modelling technologies).

pdxindy - Thu May 03, 2012 10:59 am

Vectorman wrote:

In addition to 3.V, my wavetable scanning workhorses are Zebra and NI Massive. Massive has a very glossy, modern sound that's great for spacey, atmospheric sweeps, metallic/plucky comping sounds, icy pads, etc. Zebra is definitely the deepest of the three. It's fun to use Waldorf-esque wavetables in Zebra, since you can get sounds that are somewhat evocative of a PPG but with way more programming possibilities. It's a cleaner, more hi-fi sound than a PPG, of course, but when using Waldorf 3.V, I have True PPG mode turned off half the time; the gritty artifacts of the PPG and Microwave can make for great crunchy basses, but it's often not so pleasing in the higher registers.

You can also use the decimator filter in Zebra for a less hifi sound...

George - Thu May 03, 2012 11:04 am

For wavetable as single cycle waveform you will find Discovery Pro and Corona can handle them pretty well.

Richard_Synapse - Thu May 03, 2012 11:22 am

bronxsound wrote:

if i remeber correctly Dune and Zebra also feature wavetable synthesis...

Yes, though in Dune it's more of an extra gimmick, it wasn't really intended to support wavetable synthesis at first. It ended up similar to the classic PPG which doesn't use much or any interpolation when blending between waveforms. As such the sound is too harsh at times when sweeping through the wavetable. In Dune 2 we'll do it properly, smooth and accurate, which I think is more useful for sound design in general.

Richard

Bronto Scorpio - Thu May 03, 2012 11:28 am

Richard_Synapse wrote:

In Dune 2 we'll do it properly, smooth and accurate, which I think is more useful for sound design in general.

Nice!

Cheers
Dennis

ouroboros - Thu May 03, 2012 11:33 am

erm, free for plinking - oatmeal.
It doesn't import or scan waves, but you can draw the single cycle forms to your hearts content, with some tools for manipulating them.

PietW. - Thu May 03, 2012 12:06 pm

Bronto Scorpio wrote:

Richard_Synapse wrote:

In Dune 2 we'll do it properly, smooth and accurate, which I think is more useful for sound design in general.

Nice!

Cheers
Dennis

Very Nice

ew - Thu May 03, 2012 12:34 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:

EvilDragon wrote:

Before. Wolfgang Palm's first digital oscillator synths (1978 or so) didn't travel between waves during playback, yet he refers to them in interviews as the first wavetable synths.

ew

Arrested Developer - Thu May 03, 2012 1:02 pm

PietW. wrote:

For a Waldorf Microwave, there is no Softwarderivat. No largo or no PPG 3.V. The microwave is and will remain unique, and I curse the day that I sold him.

+1, if we are talking about the MW1

For "wavetablesque" sounds i really liked the emagic ES2, when it was new...
In combination with some hardware synths, it was a really good teamplayer

Zebra2 is my actual favourite one, since it offers lots of possibilities to "downgrade" the sound.
(probably with Massive and Reaktor there are plenty of great alternatives....need more time to check out these....
(the value of a synth largely depends of the time that one spends with it...

Wink

Bronto Scorpio - Thu May 03, 2012 4:08 pm

PietW. wrote:

Bronto Scorpio wrote:

Richard_Synapse wrote:

In Dune 2 we'll do it properly, smooth and accurate, which I think is more useful for sound design in general.

Nice!

Cheers
Dennis

Very Nice

Indeed!

I only have Dune BE (Beat Edition) but I *love* it. It's really hard to impress me with a synth but Dune is simply great! And *way* more than a trance machine! Smile

I quickly recorded some wavetable-ish demos:

A simple 80s synth which somehow reminds of me the sounds from the first Nightmare on Elm street movie I had on VHS Laughing

Freddy On VHS

This one sounds like a mad Korg Wavestation from the future HiHi

Intro Wave Sequence

And this one is slightly off topic since it isn't that wavetable-ish but I just wanted to show that the osc waves in Dune are *great* for drones and textures Smile

Machine Room

Keep in mind that I made these with Dune BE so there aren't any effects on the sounds. Some of them could need a nice delay Smile

Cheers
Dennis

pdxindy - Thu May 03, 2012 4:41 pm

Arrested Developer wrote:

Zebra2 is my actual favourite one, since it offers lots of possibilities to "downgrade" the sound.

Just made this wave scanning preset in Zebra with some 'downgrading' Smile

http://draigathar.org/sounds/Zebra11.mp3

jonahs - Thu May 03, 2012 7:07 pm

If you're willing to make your own wavetables NI's Skanner (XT) is good fun.

Ingonator - Thu May 03, 2012 8:28 pm

PietW. wrote:

stikygum wrote:

For a Waldorf Microwave, there is no Softwarderivat. No largo or no PPG 3.V. The microwave is and will remain unique, and I curse the day that I sold him.

But obviously Largo is the closest one at it includes all wavetables of the Microwaves (I/II/XT). Due to the more digital nature of the Largo filter in comparison to the real analog one in the Mirowave 1 Largo would maybe fit better into the Microwave II/XT.

The PPG Wave 3.V contains a lot of wavetables too but AFAIK not all from the Microwave.

I don't know exactly about Kubik as i did not really play with it myself.

Anyway if you want exactly the sound of a Microwave I you would maybe have to go for the real thing...
I had a Microwave XT back in 2005 which was really cool but currently i am quite happy with the Blofeld.

About the wavetable discusssion: For me the term wavetable synthesis is the way how it was implemented in the PPG Wave.
About wavetables in ElctraX: The "wavetable import itself is more like morphing or doing PWM with a single cycle wave but in the VA waveforms it contains a few "real" wavetables with multiple waveforms.

Ingo

hibidy - Thu May 03, 2012 10:29 pm

OK, hibidy has yet another stupid question. Are not some sample based "synths" considered "wavetable"? I wiki'ed it and it doesn't really sink in yet.

EvilDragon - Thu May 03, 2012 10:48 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis

Section "Confusion with sample-based synthesis". Smile

VariKusBrainZ - Fri May 04, 2012 12:34 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

in Harmor if you hold shift while dropping single-cycles onto the image, it stacks them & you can use the image as a wavetable (with proper interpolation between them).

I should read the manual, this is an excellent tip.
I tried it dragging waveforms from a Sytrus oscillator.
Harmor fades between adjoinging waves.
Instant wavetable loveliness before even tweaking any parameters.

zorniko - Sun May 06, 2012 6:31 am

Absynth. Simply outstanding, clear and low CPU use engine, with numerous fx/options for creation/manipulation/interaction/modulation/ of single-cycle waveforms, etc... Cool

rj0 - Sun May 06, 2012 9:21 am

VariKusBrainZ wrote:

tony tony chopper wrote:

in Harmor if you hold shift while dropping single-cycles onto the image, it stacks them & you can use the image as a wavetable (with proper interpolation between them).

I didn't spot it in the manual (but I may not have the latest).

I gather the whole drag/drop thing is only available through FL Studio, or is there an alternate way to do this (adding single-cycles to the image) with the standard VST?

EvilDragon - Sun May 06, 2012 10:48 am

zorniko wrote:

Absynth. Simply outstanding, clear and low CPU use engine, with numerous fx/options for creation/manipulation/interaction/modulation/ of single-cycle waveforms, etc... Cool

Again, single-cycle waveforms, not wavetable scanning...

eXode - Sun May 06, 2012 12:33 pm

Not a plugin per se but Reason has both the Malström and Thor synthesizers. Although the Malström is a variation of wavetable (graintable, cross between granular and wavetable).

gentleclockdivider - Mon May 07, 2012 4:54 am

I'd say the audio table module in reaktor Smile

fmr - Mon May 07, 2012 4:59 am

gentleclockdivider wrote:

I'd say the audio table module in reaktor Smile

Actually, there is a wavetable synth in the Reaktor factory library, and there is one in the user library that emulates the Microwave XT. This amonge several other wavetable scanning instruments

tony tony chopper - Mon May 07, 2012 5:07 am

Quote:

Mmmh.. while Komplex Term did save a file that works like you describe, I found a couple of WAZ wavetables and they don't seem to work like that. They define a loop of 673 samples, but their length aren't a multiple of it (they're all rounded seconds, either 44100 or 88200). I assume that VAZ is more relaxed about it.. but that makes autodetection harder.
Worse! The loop points don't define a fully cycle, but a full cycle -1 sample, pretty bad.
(http://www.collusioninc.net/index.php/soundware/vaz-sounds/67-aeh-soundware-vaz-2010-bank)

If only they had been defined using a standard wav marker using a new marker ID (like 'wtsc'), then it would be clear when a wav file is a wavetable & each single-cycle would be clearly marked.

As for WT files, I found out that they have 2 formats, the one used by Komplexer (couldn't find the format) & the one used by Surge..

V-GER - Mon May 07, 2012 6:11 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

Quote:

Seems whoever made those wavetables misunderstood and assumed milliseconds would be precise enough, I used to think so before I learned about defining length as number of samples.. If it's commercial stuff that's horrendous (!), if not you may want to just send a friendly message about the problem. Anyway, if it seems to be really great stuff you could always consider to edit the loop points yourself...

I like the flexibility of no marker being required as that means less work if I want to try out a wav originally not intended to work as a wavetable, and I guess it's too late to establish such standards now anyway..

Oh, glad I newer bothered with the WT format then - formats who are different formats without any clear signs as to what they are = too much hassle for me...

PietW. - Mon May 07, 2012 8:53 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

Quote:

Surge can not Wavetables. Only Single Cycle Waves in Format WT.

blacktomcat666 - Mon May 07, 2012 8:59 am

Komplexer WT files have a very simple format: The only include the amplitudes for the harmonics of the additive synth (+/- 4096.0, stored as 32 bit floating point number),nothing else. These values are ordered as follows:

Slice 0 [Harmonic 0 - 63],Slice 1 [Harmonic 0 - 63], .....,Slice 32 [Harmonic 0 -63]. Komlexer has only sinewave - generators in the wavetable oscillator, that's why resynthesis results will look and sound a bit different from the original.

This is very different from Surge WT files. In Surge, a wavetable is stored in "time domain", while in Komplexer it's stored in "frequency domain". And that's the reason why Komlexer is more an additive synth (like a Kawai K5/K5000) than a wavetable synth. And it's the reason for the existence of K - term (now: Audio - Term). You must use FFT analysis or additive synthesis to build Komlexer wavetables.

tony tony chopper - Mon May 07, 2012 9:10 am

Quote:

Surge can not Wavetables. Only Single Cycle Waves in Format WT.

its manual says that there can be up to 512 cycles in a WT

fmr - Mon May 07, 2012 9:11 am

blacktomcat666 wrote:

Isn't that exactly the behaviour of ALL the PPG/Waldorf wavetable synths?

tony tony chopper - Mon May 07, 2012 9:14 am

Quote:

Thanks for the info!
I'll probably end up supporting that, considering that in Harmor (yes, too an additive synth) I too only need the harmonic amplitudes & not phases (well, they all share the same initial phases, so if I were to read cycles in the time domain, I'd keep the phases of the first one).
(but I see you say it allows negative amplitudes, thus half-phases)

So it's always 64 harmonics?

blacktomcat666 - Mon May 07, 2012 9:16 am

fmr wrote:

blacktomcat666 wrote:

Isn't that exactly the behaviour of ALL the PPG/Waldorf wavetable synths?

As far as I know PPG/Waldorf wavetables were stored as time domain(until MW1 only the first half of a waveform in a wavetable entry, the other half was mirrored).

fmr - Mon May 07, 2012 9:24 am

I said that because the SoundDiver module for MW and MW II had a wavetable editor where the waves were edited using additive synthesis, and we could even perform analysis and resynthesis, creating an entirely new wavetable.
The fact that only the first half of the wave is stored is because the second half is created by mirroring the first half, which would not collide.

blacktomcat666 - Mon May 07, 2012 9:41 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

Quote:

Komlexer always uses 64x33 harmonics, so the files - written in 32 bit float - are 8448 bytes exactly.

Kterm uses the phase information in a similar way. First it calculates the magnitude spectrum for each slice using sqrt(real^2+imag^2).

Then it scans through each of the 64 harmonic envelopes and sets inital polarity for all following non-zero values in the envelope, using atan2(imag,real). This setting is repeated every time a zero value followed by a non zero value occurs and it's done for each harmonic envelope independently. This avoids "wobbeling" sound also as a too "sawtooth - like" sound.

Sorry for my complicated writing, my english is a bit poor. Wink

blacktomcat666 - Mon May 07, 2012 9:48 am

fmr wrote:

Hm.. I could imagine the waves where rendered (into a midi/sysex file) and stored as time domain data in the MW's memory. I think MW II has full waves in each wavetable entry, that's why "pulse width modulation" tables were possible.

gentleclockdivider - Mon May 07, 2012 10:43 am

fmr wrote:

gentleclockdivider wrote:

I'd say the audio table module in reaktor Smile

Actually, there is a wavetable synth in the Reaktor factory library, and there is one in the user library that emulates the Microwave XT. This amonge several other wavetable scanning instruments

no really ? just kidding . Smile

I just wanted to say that it's a lot more fun making your own wavetables with the audio table module ..
As far for the waldorf xt emulation , the only thing in common with the hardware is the gui , really don't like that ensemble

highkoo - Mon May 07, 2012 11:56 am

tony tony chopper wrote:

If only they had been defined using a standard wav marker using a new marker ID (like 'wtsc'), then it would be clear when a wav file is a wavetable & each single-cycle would be clearly marked.

I think that is how Massive must work with them because the wavs have markers/regions defined when extracted, and not all the tables contain the same number of wavs.

LeVzi wrote:

"I WANT TO BE ABLE TO IMPORT WAVETABLES INTO MASSIVE"

Yeah... +1
Im guessing they play dumb and v2 just has some new fx or something. Rolling Eyes

What they should do is make it like Zebra and let us load single cycles in slots around the osc knobs, and then add an option to interpolate from end to end if need be, etc....
Fukk itd be perfect. Love

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