KVR :: Camel Audio » psytrance tutorials for alchemy? [View Original Topic]
There are 18 posts in this topic.

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spidergod - Thu May 10, 2012 12:28 am

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Hello

Just wondering if anyone has any psytrance tutorials using alchemy?

The drone/sounscape tutorial/advice was superb (am going to try some of the advice today on a couple of things).

Trying to find a way of doing the standard psytrance bass wobbly acid stuff and cannot seem to find the right sound.

thanks

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ZenPunkHippy - Thu May 10, 2012 1:59 am

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There aren't any psy specific tutorials for Alchemy that I know of but assuming you mean the typical 16th note bass line, it's quite easy to set up the basic "pluck" sound using an envelope + velocity to filter cutoff plus EQ modulation to add some rhythmic squelch.

In the first source use a saw wave, set the number of oscillators to 2, set the phase to 75% and turn the unison down to 2% or so. This gives a consistent, hard sound at note one. Mono voice + retrigger at note on.

Any of the LP2 analogue modelled filers is a good choice, I usually use the LP MG-2 HQ or LP2-K20-HQ, with quite a bit of drive and no resonance. A (new) AHDSR + velocity is assigned to filter cutoff. Set the filter cutoff too high or too low and it won't quite hit the right range when the filter opens, so try setting the filter cutoff to around 140 - 250 Hz.

Envelope decay of about .12 - .15 with default curve. Around 20% sustain (so that the filter doesn't close to much). Adjust the depth to taste.

Envelope depth is dialled back quite a bit so that the sound is not too bright. Velocity is used to modulate cutoff (or the envelope depth) by a small amount. Experiment with different MIDI velocity patterns to change the rhythmic effect.

Place an EQ module in the FX rack and use an LFO with Trigger off to modulate the middle frequency knob at around 400 - 800 Hz. Depth of modulation is quite shallow. Steep Q (0.5) and high gain. Try different LFO speeds and shapes to change the rhythmic effect.

In the main filter section adjust the FX send so that the bass is retained but the EQ modulation can still be heard. You can also use an insert EQ plugin to help emphasise the squelch (sweep around with relatively high gain, steep Q to find the sweet spot).

So that's how I typically create a psy bass line using Alchemy, but if you post a link to a track with the type of sound you are trying to achieve that would help. Lately I've found that FM synthesis is great for creating more varied bass timbres with great punch. Search for FM bass tutorials on Youtube for more info (obviously not using Alchemy ...).

Kinda unrelated, but check out these Ableton Live videos for some nice psy tips (not specific to bass or Alchemy, but some really great techniques):

http://forum.isratrance.com/psilocybian-s-tutorials/

Peace,
Andy.

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spidergod - Thu May 10, 2012 3:40 am

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Thanks for the advice, will experiment a bit more this afternoon.

Here is some dark psy and the sound I am trying to get starts around 0:23/0:24

Rawar

http://youtu.be/xmibeat8Sj0

and here is some goa gil and the sounds I am trying to get start around 1:38

http://youtu.be/Pj5ra-Zh1R4

and here is something I came up with yesterday :

http://soundcloud.com/spidergod/psy-trance-buliding-block-1

It does not have that psychedelic sound

thanks

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ZenPunkHippy - Thu May 10, 2012 4:04 am

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Those bass sounds should be relatively easy with Alchemy using the same technique I described above.

The first obvious problem with your attempt is that the bass (and effects on the bass) are way too loud in comparison to the kick drum. The balance between bass and kick is really critical, otherwise the "trance effect" is lost and we can't hear the kick drum thump like it should. The bass line might also be an octave too high, but it's difficult to tell.

Although not always the case, you will find a lot of electronic bass lines (including psy) are in the key of G because that's the lowest note that can be reproduced reliably on a speaker system. 49 Hz is the magic frequency, so make sure your bass notes are in the right octave. Sometimes it helps to have a frequency analyser open so you can see the fundamental note.

So get your kick thumping (don't over compress), add the bass notes adjusting for length and velocity while working on the patch tips above. Keep tweaking the patch and adjusting volume until the bass notes sit well between the kicks.

Some things to check while working on the bass ..

1) 16th notes are not too long (around 170 ticks out of 240)

2) The release of the amp and filter envelopes is relatively short so the notes finish right as the next one starts

3) The voicing is set to mono, retrigger

4) Quantised 16th notes work but you really want to add a bit of groove

- try moving the 3 bass notes backwards or forwards in time, +/- 20 ticks (give or take a few ticks)
- alternatively, try moving the 2nd and 4th notes forward or backwards by a small amount
- the kick is always quantised to the 1/4 beat in a 4/4 pattern, except during fills or breakdowns

Peace,
Andy.

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Mushy Mushy - Thu May 10, 2012 4:07 am

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Gotta love the hippy

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spidergod - Thu May 10, 2012 5:29 am

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Thanks, I just cannot get it right though

here is the kick and bass line midi file and the bass acp

https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D6851861_7339120_946559

If anyone can correct the midi files and show where I went wrong with the acp I would be very thankful.

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ZenPunkHippy - Thu May 10, 2012 5:57 am

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I can't re-save your patch at the moment because I have the beta installed, but here are some simple fixes for you:

1) Set the PVar control for Source A to 75%
- this resets the oscillator phase at note on
- it will have a dramatic effect on the sound but the amp envelope is not set up right, so ...

2) Click Master amp to view the assigned envelope
- select File -> Copy for AHDSR 1 (we'll paste it in the filter section in step 3)
- set the AHDSR 1 decay to 0% and sustain to 100%

3) Click the main Filter 1 Cutoff
- click the first mod rack entry to change AHDSR1 to "New AHDSR"
- AHDSR 2 is now displayed
- select envelope File -> Paste
(AHDSR 1 was set up OK for the filter envelope, not the amp envelope)
- the pasted AHDSR 2 envelope should have a short decay and low sustain
- in the mod rack turn the depth down to 50%

4) The LFO mod of the EQ is too extreme so reduce the depth

Now for the MIDI:

When the first note is playing at the same time as the kick a serious clash of frequency occurs and it basically sound muffled. There should only be 3 notes per 1/4 beat, not 4 like you have so delete the notes that play at the same time as the kick, so the basic pattern is:

KbbbKbbbKbbbKbbb

Also worth pointing out that what looks like a small change to (say) the filter cutoff or depth mod can have a HUGE impact on the sound so pay careful attention to the sound when making tweaks to the controls.

I will try to install v1.25 later and re-do the patch / MIDI / bounce some audio and upload so you can hear what I mean ... but please try to follow the above instructions as it will help you lear more.

Peace,
Andy

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spidergod - Thu May 10, 2012 6:37 am

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Thanks for your help.

Think I am slowly getting there :

https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D6851861_7339120_946563

thanks

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ZenPunkHippy - Thu May 10, 2012 7:01 am

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Yep, that's starting to sound pretty good. I tweaked the decay for the for the filter envelope a bit to make the filter open up a bit longer - when the decay is too short there is not enough frequency coming through to make the bass distinct.

But OTOH, if you were using this as a "low bass" patch and adding another layer on top with effects, it would probably work.

You still have some notes playing at the same time as the kick but it sounded OK with my kick here - sometimes it does, depends on the sounds being used. Also - lower the notes by 5 semitones to the key of G (you're in C at the moment). G is much deeper bass

Anyway, I would focus on getting a single source bass sound working well first, write some tracks and practice mixing that. Sometimes just the bass + kick doesn't sound terribly "psychedelic" until the other elements have been added.

Once you've got a few mixes done try some of the more advanced bass techniques such as using multiple sources playing different octaves and wave shapes, to change the timbre of the sound.

A square wave sub-oscillator combined with a saw one octave up is a good combination. When doing this you would typically route the square to Filter 1 with FX mix at 0 so the sub is distinct. Lower the volume of the saw a bit, and send to filter 2 + FX mix through EQ/delay/distortion/whateversoundsgood. This second layer is typically is how to make the bass sound really wide.

Bass is a constant battle. Just when as you think you're doing OK, some goes and releases a track like this. 28 seconds in BOOM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HvaguY_0qM

Peace,
Andy.

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Mushy Mushy - Thu May 10, 2012 7:08 am

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Ajja is f*cking unbelievable.

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spidergod - Thu May 10, 2012 7:22 am

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yeah the sounds in that video are pretty damn good, the crazy squeeks are nice sounding as well.

hmm not sure what is happening as the bass midi file says the notes are set at G1 (according to ableton that is using the fold option)

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ZenPunkHippy - Thu May 10, 2012 7:25 am

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@spidergod - you should also turn off the "Trigger" for LFO 1 to hear the effect it will have in EQ section. Lower the depth so that it's only affecting some of the frequency range.

For added squelch you could turn on the Source filters for Source A. The first filter only is usually enough, try lowering the cutoff and turning up the resonance (not too much). With the EQ modulation in the FX section this will add some serious squelch to the overall sound.

Re the notes - OK, maybe something I did wrong.


Yeah, he's about my favourite psy producer for the last few years. Certainly the gold standard for bass IMHO

Peace,
Andy.

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spidergod - Thu May 10, 2012 7:37 am

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will experiment with the bass setup.
Will probably have a few more questions over the coming few days.

Any other advice for midi variation as well?

thanks

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ZenPunkHippy - Thu May 10, 2012 8:04 am

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The small timing variations and velocity control I mentioned above are the key to creating dynamic bass lines. When the notes are quantised to hard 16th's it will sound OK / good on your monitors, but try dancing to it ... it's kinda rigid and doesn't flow very well.

Depends on the bass line, but you don't always need to use short 16th notes either, that just the style I tend to go for but some longer and shorter notes in the right place are good for adding funk. You may need to adjust the envelopes and filter cutoff to let the longer notes sound properly.

One of the more classic patterns uses a first note one octave up, followed by 2 notes at the lower octave (or is it the other way around? I can't remember ...). The velocity for the first note is quite low (to compensate for the higher volume and stop the filter from opening too much), with a higher velocity for the 2 low notes. Play around with this for a bit and you should recognise the classic psy bass sound.

Anyway, now that you've got the basic sound you can start experimenting with different ideas - the concepts will soon fall in to place.

Make sure you watch all of those tutorials too. The granular percussion technique is very useful, and you'll pick up some nice mixing tips too.

Peace,
Andy.

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iamyourfather - Fri May 11, 2012 6:00 am

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heh, was going to mention Ajja, amazing bass all the time. I've looked around for decent tutorials and found that most were useless vis a vis getting the sound and mostly covered the pattern side of things (which hardly qualifies as tut worthy TBH). Zen's advice is great all I can add is that pitch / balance between kick and bass is half the battle. The best sound bass in isolation can sound crap with your kick if it's pitched / eq'd wrong. It should be comparable in bass heaviness to the kick, not overpower it, also sidechaining the bass sub to the kick can help for busy patterns like the full on KBBB thing. Also try whacking load of distortion on the kick to hear it's fundamental note, then relate the bass to it like root, 4th or fifth. It can help find a decent sweet spot between the two.

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spidergod - Mon May 14, 2012 12:33 pm

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Thanks for all the advice again.

Has anyone got any good midi files for bass lines?

My kick sounds rubbish as well, anyone know of any really good ableton kick drum racks?

Am starting to create some strange psy squelchs using the demo of turnado.

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jupiter8 - Tue May 15, 2012 3:03 am

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Really ? Not saying you're wrong but i don't think i've heard that one before and are just curious.

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iamyourfather - Thu May 17, 2012 2:18 am

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I have heard similar, but heard 40 ish hz. I hear dubstep producers mention it mostly, but then it would be a lot more important if your bass is just a sine wave, since it would disappear. It seems kind of redundant when dealing with 4 to the floor style music anyway as the kick drum carries most of the weight and any bassline with more sub than the kick tends to sound out of place in these kinds of music... at least to me anywho. Obviously this is not the case with sub heavy music such as dubstep, DnB, Dub etc.

Just my humble 2p. Would be interested to hear conflicting opinions on this

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There are 18 posts in this topic.