KVR :: Hardware (Instruments and Effects) » Kemper vs Line6 "Dream Rig" (was: Which tube guitar pre?) [View Original Topic]
There are 77 posts in this topic.

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 11, 2012 7:10 am

---

After a lot of consideration it's occurred to me that I'm not going to be happy half-assing it with a pre-amp/amp-cab modeler situation. I know I chit-chat a lot about synths (I love them so) but I'm a guitar player g'damn it! It's always been my main love. The last few years I've spent a lot of time and money on some pretty choice bits of analog synth gear (I'm so in love with my Studio Electronics ATX-x QFS!) but not a dime on a guitar equivalent. THIS MUST STOP!

So my budget is $1500 to $2000. I'm no longer trying to get a new computer as my current one will serve me for another year or so. Here's what I'm considering and why. I'm trying to think though this because it's a lot of money and I want to make sure I get the best bang for the buck. My main requirements are great sound quality and it has to be silent or near silent so I can maintain a healthy relationship with my wife and neighbors.

Kemper Profiling Amp:

Pros:

Small.
Single box solution.
Sounds fantastic.
Digital (will make me feel like I'm in The Matrix)
Will let me profile weird stuff for crazy times.
Chance to profile amps of my past that are much missed.
Not limited to models chosen by the developer.
Cute (maybe I'm the only one that likes it's sci-fi hospital gear look, but I dig it. I'm the kid who spent hours trying to make his room the bridge of the Jupiter 2 from Lost In Space)

Cons:
Will never make an actual sound on it's own. (I know I said I wanted a silent solution, but there could come a time when having an actual amp could be good for jams)
New tech will lose value when Kemper II is released
Needs MIDI controller (I have an extra FCB1010) Will the CCs be smooth?
No actual tubes. (this is probably nostalgia for days of old...)

Line6 "Dream Rig" DT25+POD 500HD into a Randall ISO cab.

Pros:
Real tubes. The DT25 is in the neighborhood of a traditional tube amp.
Dedicated Controller. (The POD HD 500 will act as both a controller and give extra models and effects)
Will make a sound if needed.
Sounds fantastic.
Bogner name and real tube power stage will probably mean it'll retain it's resale value.
Looks great like a nice boutique amp.

Cons:
Big.
Multi-box solution. ISO cab will probably be awkward in my space. Could go in the garage. (not sure about that)
Will make some sound. My studio is next to our garage. I'm in CA so it never goes lower than 40 degrees Farenheight/5 Celsius. I guess I could drill a hole in the wall and keep the cab in the garage. Not sure if I want to deal with that rigamarole.
Users claim high learning curve with lots of chances to make it sound like crap.
Limited to amp models Line6 has chosen.
Limited to the Randall ISO Cab.

So that's more or less me think-typing. At the end of the typing I'm leaning toward the Kemper. Did I miss anything? Is there another solution as good?

---

wasi - Fri May 11, 2012 7:48 am

---

Round and round we go, hehe

Engl. Four channels in the same way the H&K has two, fx loop if you want it. Unless you want a broad variety of sounds at a push of a button at which point you can do better than the second-hand jmp.

Not many outside the boutique market do high gain like Engl, and the cleans are typically fat and shimmering. Besides, added bonus of the Engl is nobody from IK can tell you their Engl sounds more real.

As I mentioned in the other thread, a speaker sim out is a nice accessory, but you'd hate being forced to use that despite your other solutions. You want either both or just a dry out. I thought the Tubemeister only had a speaker sim out (can't check right now). //edit : there's the fx send as well...

If you have an amp already, maybe also look around for a used palmer adig-lb (or something like that). They cost a fortune new and their speaker sim is inferior Imo to the fractionally priced redbox, but it has a load box plus a (post power amp) line out. The advantage is power amp saturation and you can play your actual amp. It's not nearly worth the money new though if you ask me.

---

Uncle E - Fri May 11, 2012 7:57 am

---

Because you can't get classic crunch without power tubes.

---

lfm - Fri May 11, 2012 8:26 am

---

I was looking quite a while at this one:
http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/sansamp/psa1_1.html

Not Tube per se, but has some qualities.

Occurs second hand now and then and is definately worth the price then.

---

Hink - Fri May 11, 2012 9:05 am

---

I'm going to say it again ZC and I know you wont like it but as long as you dont mind the wait you cannot do better than the Frenzel pre I got last year

http://www.frenzeltubeamps.com/page17.php

Except just after I got mine they added a feature to add one more pre-amp tube for either a Marshall Hi-gain tone or a Hi-Watt...add the two watt power tube option and you have a great pre-amp that is also a great recording single ended amp. $385.00 for everything and then go to Antique Electronics and get the exact same cage Frenzel sells for $37.00 unpainted.

I know what you said about not wanting the Fender tone but I dont compare it to a Fender or a Marshall even though that's what the F and M stand for...want two channels? Well you dont get two separate tonestacks like you might with some amps but with an AB pedal you can switch between the two inputs which each have their own gain control...get an ABY and use both.

FWIW Shane Sanders offered to buy mine for what I paid for it if I didn't like it so check with him, you might end up having no risk. However it does meet your needs as you have written them and just so you know, that amp with the attenuator is great with the Jet City iso cab. (I certainly use more hi-gain sounds than anything else and with an OD in front of it it screams and mine does not have the third pre-amp tube*).

With that said I can understand that the wait might be what keeps you from getting one (and the fact that there is no returning it), because it will be two months. OTOH IMHO it's one of the best values out there and I have experience with plenty of pres (even the Carvin with it's boatload of 12ax7s) and I prefer the Frenzel over all of them.

It can even be used with other amps as a pedal too. Even if I bought a dozen new boutique amps I would still keep my little Frenzel around because there's always a use for it.

About the sansamp PSA-1...it is great but I think overpriced even used by today's standards.

Another choice would be the Rockblock, FWIW almost the exact price of the Frenzel without the wait

http://www.surprisesoundlab.com/ssl-24_003.htm

This is on my to get list as well

The ENGL, the Boogie, the Marshall JMP-1 are all very good (though I have never tried the ENGL and going on rep only), the Marshall 9000 pre-amp (the all tube one) I have has been good enough to get me by but went under my bed for years when I plugged into a Sansamp GT2 because the Sansamp blew it away imo.

*just my opinion but since about 1982 I have realized that for true hi-gain with just about any tube amp you want some boost in front of it, I prefer a boost or an OD with the distortion low and you want for gain no more. I built my Tubescreamer clone with the boutique mods and one of the mods was adding a switch so I can choose between the stock diodes (clippers) and LEDs or in the middle position I can "lift" those clippers making it only a boost and that's pretty much how I run it.

If you can solder and read an ohm meter you can build the same pedal for under 70 dollars.

Please do not be angry with me for my constantly bringing up Frenzel, I only do so because that little pre impressed me that much. The only thing I would want for is a presence but it does well without it...I will never part with my Frenzel Pre

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 11, 2012 10:02 am

---

Yeah, it's been a bit of a round trip, but this is more the final "course correction" to a process that's gone on for a while. A long time ago my wife and I were gearing up for a move. Our idea was to stuff ourselves into a one bedroom apt for a few years and save up to buy a home. It meant I was losing my studio and sharing a small home office space or corner of the living room for my stuff, so I went all computer. I'm glad I did though. I learned a lot and discovered some very cool instruments and effects that I wouldn't have otherwise known about.

So smash cut to now, I've got a smaller but decent sized room for my gear so I've one by one been putting in hardware pieces to augment the software. I like the hybrid approach. Oddly I focused mostly on synths when my main instrument has been guitar all along. That's partially a testament to how good amp sims are these days. Anyway, my final step is the guitar amp situation. I've already got a Lexicon MPX-1 for effects.

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 11, 2012 11:39 am

---

Here's my issue with the Frenzel. I can't find a single high gain demo of one.

That Rock Block looks interesting too, yet most of the demos are horrible. WTF? Maybe I could find one at a local shop and check it. The most interesting one I heard has it in front of S-Gear, so that's how it may be used... Might cover much of the same ground as my Blackstar HT-5 Dual pedal.

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 11, 2012 11:57 am

---

That's a good point but I'm torn because direct out from the Redbox demos I've heard sound a little muffled and dead. On the other hand, I can use it's effect send into TORPEDO PI-101, though it's unclear how well it's tube amp simulation goes and then of course I'm back to using software for at least part of the deal. A plus is that I'm that much closer to adding a $400 Randall iso cab and having the full real deal, though I'm torn as to if I want to go that route. Do I really care about "classic crunch?" I'm not sure...

Here's a demo that I quite like the sound of.

No power amp, just pre and cab impulse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YjGal6ABqg&feature=related

---

wasi - Fri May 11, 2012 12:20 pm

---

You clearly need an Engl. - Seriously, not many amps are that articulate on the low end. That's essentially Engl's signature high gain sound. The JMP-1 is trying to strangle itself with its power chord right now.

The "round and round" remark by the way was more a reference to how I go round and round on these things myself. Every evening I reach a gear decision that gets thrown out by noon the next day... So please, no offense intended!

---

Uncle E - Fri May 11, 2012 12:28 pm

---

Another way to go about this might be to get a tube pedal that you can use in front of an amp when you're not using it DI. The Soldano GTO, for example, does amazing medium to high gain tones when feeding a good clean amp and would probably sound nice through cabinet impulses.

That said, if you can muster up a little extra cash, the Kemper is really the way to go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EChYt-G_kVU

---

Uncle E - Fri May 11, 2012 12:32 pm

---

That's not bad! Used Engl's are surprisingly cheap, too.

---

Uncle E - Fri May 11, 2012 12:41 pm

---

Use the line out in that case. The Red Box specifically filters out top-end and it sounds like it filters out more than you like.


There are no power tubes in the signal in that scenario.

---

Hink - Fri May 11, 2012 1:01 pm

---

record something with AT DONT send me the hi-gain version just record a dry signal too and I'll send it through my re-amper, into my digitech screamin blues>Frenzel (I suggest that because it's fairly generic) and let's see how close I come to what you want. I'll send you back the what is recorded out of the line out with nothing else so you can try it with anything (AT cabs, IRs, power amp etc).

Bottom line, I dont want anyone to go just on my word on something like this because all our tastes are different. I also miss music retail sometimes, I was the type of salesman that enjoyed it when someone walked away with exactly what they were looking for (to this day every so often I'll bump into someone who says "you sold me my first guitar" and that's a great feeling). Also if you just feel Frenzel is not for you at all I wont mention it again, no offense taken nor any offense intended but no matter what that door stays open.

As for the Rock Block talk to Andrew, he loves his and I'm sure he has some good samples to hear...there's a lot to choose from so take your time and choose what works best for you and you'll be all set...but that is really preaching to the choir because you already know that

---

Hink - Fri May 11, 2012 1:13 pm

---

boy do I know that feeling all too well

Wife: How many amps do you need?
Me: One
Wife: Then why do you have 5?
Me: Because I haven't found that one yet
Wife: So are you going to sell the others?
Me: Of course not, I need all those
Wife: But you said you only needed one
Me: Yes and I need each and every one of those
Wife: So you are done buying amps?
Me: No I need one more...btw how many more tattoos are you going to get?
Wife: What would you like me to take out for dinner?

actually the truth is my wife is an angel and would never tell me what to buy or not and vice versa, in 15 years we have never had a fight over money because I wont let money do that to us...she does have more tats than I do amps though

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 11, 2012 1:27 pm

---

Now that's my type of humor! Bonus!



Oh? Well then I will post this in response.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M60rLoCbbo



Yeah, trust me, I've "made a final decision" on this a few times already.

---

DuX - Fri May 11, 2012 1:33 pm

---

I'm sorry to say that, but "all tubes preamp" won't make much difference. You need a tube power amp to make a difference, and a Shure SM-57 Mic, for instance, or one of the large capsule condensers like AKG C-214 or SE 2200A for a huge sound.

Rather save some more and buy a decent power amp. REALLY.

Yeah, I know they don't come cheap. But the difference is worth it IMHO.

Just my 1.5 humble c...

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 11, 2012 1:39 pm

---

Haha, that should be your sig file Hink. Brilliant. I have a similar relationship with my wife except substitute tats with vacations or Michelin star restaurants. To be fair, she gets almost no benefit from my G.A.S. and I do get something out of nice times.

---

Uncle E - Fri May 11, 2012 2:00 pm

---

Love it! That's the attitude!

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 11, 2012 2:27 pm

---

How dare you! I will counter your post by posting this!

http://procatinator.com/?cat=31

---

Hink - Fri May 11, 2012 2:51 pm

---

I agree and I dont, just power tubes are not the answer imo either...Like I have said before I bought my marshall 9000 pre-amp (all tube) many years ago, thought it was my dream amp and still have yet to like it more than "it's better than nothing". Today's small tube amps are have some hidden gems for the home recording artist and well worth looking at.

The problem for ZC is that his home is not in a good location for miking a cab (I lived this way from 1996-2010 as well), it's the outside noise that is the biggest problem. Which means a nice condenser will make matters worse and trust me this is a crappy situation to be in.

Also ot a bit but if one should choose to use an iso cab like I am at my new(ish) location beware, putting a nice condenser in the cab and cranking the amp might kill the mic. Fortunately one of my three condensers has a pad (Gauge ECM-87, condensers in a room is good, in a cab very risky

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 11, 2012 4:46 pm

---

This is another aspect of the "round and round." No matter what you talk about, here, but even more so on GearSlutz, someone will ultimately tell you that if you don't have the full deal, stay home. If we were talking about synths it would be "get a model D, they're expensive but worth it." For me, there is always somewhat of a compromise. I guess we all have to compromise in one way or another.

So I guess I ask, "where should I put the money to do the most damage?" I figured start preamp because with my current set up it would be a working solution and I could easily add an amp and iso cab at a later time.

Going with the Hughes and Kettner is interesting because there would be only one step I'd need to take. I've listened to a lot of demos of the Randall Iso cab and IMO it sounds great... I hesitate because although I've heard some great Tubemeister 18 demos, the redbox out ones were less than stellar, and it seems like all the e530 demos sounded fantastic... well at least the ones that are well recorded.

Which leads me to my next rant: Dear people of Earth: Do not make product demos that involve you blathering about nothing for a length of time, or showing how a product gets taken out of a package and then use the mic on your iPhone to show how something sounds.

---

Hink - Fri May 11, 2012 5:00 pm

---

maybe IK should come out with a couple of modeled tube power amps

---

Uncle E - Fri May 11, 2012 5:27 pm

---

Oops, sorry, I won't bring up the Kemper again.


Yup, one and done, AND you'll get a pretty good amp out of the deal, as well.


Agreed, that video you posted sounds great. Do it.

---

b4serenity - Fri May 11, 2012 6:47 pm

---

Haha, that Kemper looks like a piece of hospital equipment! Not to say it sounds good, or bad, just that it looks funny to me.

I've had the JMP-1, Sansamp PSA1 and they both had good tones. I guess it depends on exactly which tones you are gravitating towards. Phil Collen w/ Def Lep uses a JMP-1 in his stage rig if that means anything to you. When I ran the rack gear qite a few years back they ran through a PV Classic power amp - the one with a ton of tubes. The power amp made as much of an impact on the sound as the pre did.

You can do as you please but for me it took getting back to a whole amp to do it for me. I now run a Zinky MoFO head into a Zinky 2x12 cab w/ one Celestion V-30 and one gt-75 (both English made...mmmhm, an English maid...uh, I digress!)I also have a 1x12 sealed cab and a 1x12 Thiele cab both w/ different speakers. It's not really rocket science to mic and amp and man the sounds (and inspired playing feel) you get is awesome.

I guess my setup may seem complicated to you though.

What about the Mesa Boogie preamps?

Good luck w/ your search!

---

wasi - Sat May 12, 2012 12:05 am

---

There's really only the triaxis or the recto. The Recto maybe has an edge on the Engl as far as variety goes but it's a lot (3x) more expensive. The triaxis is another league, price wise.


ZC, you saw that the Engl has speaker compensation and a 2x1.5 Watt headphone amp that can can drive a regular guitar cab (see "tip 7" on page 3 of the manual http://www.engl-amps.com/cms/uploads/tx_ddfproducts/OM_E530_Tube_Preamp.pdf). That's pretty cool. (Be sure to follow the instructions though)

---

zerocrossing - Sat May 12, 2012 4:40 am

---

Damn you! I missed this post initially. Yeah, I want one of those so bad. If I got it though, it would mean putting off buying a new computer until Christmas... or maybe longer. I do have a couple of Tube pedals. A Blackstar HT-5 Duel Distortion that Dean recommended and it does sound good in front of Amplitube. I actually have a Vox Cooltron Bulldog on it's way, but that's deemed to go on the output of an analog synth.

---

zerocrossing - Sat May 12, 2012 4:51 am

---

I love the way the Kemper looks! Maybe it'll make a "PING" sound! That would rule. Looks sci-fi to me, and I dig that.

Mesa Boogie stuff seems out of my price range if I want to get a new computer as well... if not I may as well go Kemper.

Complicated rig? HA! BRING IT. You don't know the half of it. I had a gig in the 80s which involved helping Laurie Anderson and her band set up! My rig used to be so complicated (part of it was a Roland based GR set up) that I'd get to a gig an hour early just to set up. That's not my problem. My real amp issues come from two things. A) I use an audio looper. This can work in an effects loop pretty well, but if you're running a hot power amp you can distort your loops. This can sound nice but not all the time. Doing it post mic creates feedback issues.

More importantly, I live in a condo next to a major Amtrack train line. My play time is usually from 8 to 10 pm and that's the time my wife uses to watch TV shows that depict horrible things happening to people in hospitals while good looking doctors try to fix them and half sex with the other good looking doctors. She's only a floor away so I can't really crank it, in fact I usually use headphones. Also, neighbors... and trains. Sometimes I get these metal on metal sounds... I have no idea what they're doing but it's crazy noise... kind of beautiful in a NIN song intro kind of way. But you get the idea.

---

zerocrossing - Sat May 12, 2012 4:53 am

---

OK kids, I'm off for a little "holiday" as they say over the pond. I'll probably be afk for the next week but I just wanted to say I really appreciate all the help and suggestions. I might not be able to respond much but trust me I read all the posts and consider everything.

---

Hink - Sat May 12, 2012 8:28 am

---

I too have a lot of experience here (was in retail for years and I'm old), have you ever seen the Carvin Quad X Pre-amp?

http://www.bazaar-world.com/guitar-amp-9006-Carvin-Quad-X-ALL-TUBE-Preamp-Rack-Mount

4 channels, 9 pre-amp tubes...imo better than the Boogie imo (and I'm a Boogie lover, I have an old Mesa/Boogie S.O.B. 100 watt head), much better that the Marshall 9000 I have...I still regret not trading in my 9000 for this when I worked retail. As I recall I didn't because the boss would have known my pre-amp and we were not allowed to buy used gear from the store unless it had made the rounds of all 4 stores and didn't sell. Typically I worked around this selling gear to my alter ego in the computer "Roland Dube".

pretty cool pre-amp though if you can find one.

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 18, 2012 10:25 am

---

So... I've come to the conclusion that I don't think I'll be happy half assing this endeavor. I'm going full ass!

Do I go Kemper or pod hd500/dt25/Randall iso cab? It'll probably never leave my studio.

---

zerocrossing - Fri May 18, 2012 1:03 pm

---

I'm coming to this exact conclusion.

---

zerocrossing - Sun May 20, 2012 5:02 pm

---

No one? Nothing?

---

wasi - Mon May 21, 2012 7:07 am

---

Just go out and play them to death. As in a very long time and on several occasions, not just half an hour, once. Ask if you can borrow one for a gig or something.

I'm personally sceptical the Kemper can live up to its price tag out in the wild, it seems like a hot-rodded amp plugin from a purely consumer perspective (who cares what the tech behind it is). Line6 makes great and affordable stuff and it may be the best of bost worlds (or as close as you can get), as opposed to the best of one world with the Kemper...

It's also what you feel comfortable with using. Too many options can leave you frustrated (yeah, no kidding).

---

polaris20 - Mon May 21, 2012 7:20 am

---

Never leaving your studio? Then I'd go either Kemper or an AxeFX, and then an FRFR cab for jamming. The Randall is just going to sound too boxy, and when it comes to recording both the Kemper and Axe kill.

I love my POD HD500 too, and if you don't want to drop the coin on the first too, it's a really good option as well. I'm not personally convinced that a "real tube power amp" is going to be that discernable in a recording these days. The modelers (IMO) have gotten that good.

I play a Mesa DC-5, but generally I spend most of the time plugged into the HD for recording.

---

Hink - Mon May 21, 2012 9:05 am

---

I dont know about the Randall cab but my Jet City ISO cab is not boxy at all

---

Uncle E - Mon May 21, 2012 10:48 am

---

That's what a 30-day return policy is for. FWIW, I've used the Kemper with monitors and headphones, it sounded great in both usages, but I've never used it for live performance.


IMO, Amplitube and Guitar Rig don't even sound as good as bad tube amps. The Kemper sounds as good as or better than many boutique amps.


Jack of all trades, master of none? Actually, I do like that you can put the Pod HD 300 into effects only mode, given that a lot of people (not me) are fans of their effects pedals. AFAIK, the 400 and 500 can't do that, am I correct on that?

---

Hink - Mon May 21, 2012 12:02 pm

---

I'm not skeptical of Kemper myself, I'm not doubting it but I'm not buying it...not yet anyhow. Not by my choice but because of how things were I was the same way with POD. I didn't buy the first one because I wasn't interested yet (then I went to a store that carried Line 6 and the girl who was the regional rep was not only very cool and beautiful but she could really play the guitar. I went to another store and she was the rep there too (the guys all told me about the line six rep and how shocked I would be but they were the ones caught off guard when she came in, saw me, called out my name saying "this is where you went" and gave me a big hug )

The first POD turned to POD 2.0, somewhere in there was an upgrade to the original POD but I bought 2.0. If I had then what I have now I would have never bought a POD or be looking at the HD as my first. (dont get me wrong, with both PODs I have xt live and 2.0 I have got a lot of practical use from them) My problem right now with Kemper is very simple, like the POD, like the iPad and like so many other things if the Kemper is as good as it seems (and I believe it is) there will be newer models coming down the road. I do not want to get stuck with that price tag only to want to spend that much or more in a year or two on the next version.

Like I said, if I had what I have now I would have been this way with the POD...call me cold hearted but I think I'll sit and wait until they iron out the kinks (if there are any, if there are not than who knows) before jumping onboard. Once again, what if it breaks? It wont be cheap to repair I'm sure, so Eric...you're my guinnea pig

I ahte to say this but I did this with Tusc amps too in the 80s, my best friend new I liked them, he beat me to the punch and bought one and I hated it (I did buy a 2x12 with fanes from Tusc though)...he hated it too

---

zerocrossing - Mon May 21, 2012 1:10 pm

---

It's a matter of taste, no? No offence Hink, but I've absolutey hated every demo of the Jet City. Felt ok about the Randall, and really liked the Silent Sister... Though at $1000 it's a bit crazy.

---

polaris20 - Mon May 21, 2012 1:12 pm

---

I didn't like either one of them, tbh. But to each their own, I guess. I found them to be a lot of fuss for little to no return over just using a Palmer PDI-09 or a speaker impulse.

If I were hell bent on recording my exact amp's tone, I'd continue using the amp into a load, then to RedWirez impulses, or perhaps check out the new Torpedo Live.

---

Uncle E - Mon May 21, 2012 1:15 pm

---

hehe. Happily!

---

Hink - Mon May 21, 2012 2:12 pm

---

no offense taken about the iso cab, the only examples I posted were configured the same way with different amps and that was just a short time after getting the cab. I've been using it for 6 months now and have learned a lot, this is why I really dont like making demos of everything right when I get them. That iso cab has been a blessing for me and I wont be getting rid of it anytime soon nor am I married to it. I still have a 4x12 I can mic as well, just not at night when the wife is sleeping because it's in the bedroom closet

I'm not done buying speakers and cabs either

---

zerocrossing - Mon May 21, 2012 2:23 pm

---

The point you made is pretty consistent with my findings. As far as I can tell, the Jet City Iso Cab sounds horrible. The Randal sounds OK, but nothing to write home about. The only one that really made me feel like I was listening to a well miced nice guitar cab was the very expensive Rivera Silent Sister.

So... (drumroll please!) I went with the Kemper. I just ordered one from www.jrrshop.com. Exciting! I'm pretty sure this is the most expensive guitar tech I've ever owned including both my Steinbergers. (got them used)

Here's how I came to my conclusion. First, I want to say that in listening to demos, I'm not sure the Kemper had a discernible edge to the POD HD500/DT25 set up. In fact, one of the favorite sounds I found was from the Line6 set up. However, that sound was from a Line6 cabinet that had been mic'd. I think the only way I could get close to that sound quality was with a POD HD500/DT25 into a Rivera Silent Sister and that would have pushed me out of my budget.

Now, I may actually still go for a POD HD of some flavor (or another device?) to use in the Kemper's effects loop and as a controller. I'm a bit worried about the tweakability of the "profiles" in the Kemper. I'm going to hold off until I get it though to see if it's needed. There's no doubt I have plenty of effects processing power in plug ins, and I can always use my Lexicon MPX-1 if need be.

So I guess I'm a guinea pig with ya Eric.

---

Hink - Mon May 21, 2012 2:29 pm

---

one of my amps has a line out that is post power transformer and if you disconnect the speaker a dummy load goes across the speaker out. So it gives you power tube distortion as well, into IRs and works very well. I also have a Weber Attenuator with a line out though I'm not thrilled with the line out (Eric has made an interesting suggestion though that could change that). The palmer looks interesting but tbh the torpedo live is more to my liking and surely on my list.

BTW the line out like on my amp is actually a very easy mod (but without the dummy load, you would still need something for that) for almost any tube amp. Weber sells a kit but one has to wonder if the kit is really needed as we are not talking about a lot of parts. It's not an fx loop, it's a line out that takes some of the speaker out signal and knocks it down.

Still the iso cabs has it's place and I love it, I still want to build one with adjustable baffles and user configurable acoustic foam (using velcro). I have the plans all drawn up, just waiting not to be lazy and go to my friend's house to cut the wood...which means maybe next year at my rate of speed

---

Hink - Mon May 21, 2012 5:09 pm

---

congrats ZC, I hope you love it (I'm sure you will)

---

blueman - Mon May 21, 2012 7:16 pm

---

Good luck! I'm anxious to hear your review and hope you will make a video or share some sound clips with us. At the very least, please report your findings

---

polaris20 - Tue May 22, 2012 7:45 am

---

I use a direct box that goes between the cabinet and the power amp, so it's capturing the tone of the power amp in addition to the pre.

---

Hink - Tue May 22, 2012 9:20 am

---

well that's what Eric suggested I do with my Weber Minimass attenuator, that Weber makes more of a difference than most people understand. Probably why my iso cab doesn't sound like garbage or boxy, you see it has one little feature that makes all the difference in the world. It has a 3db/6db treble boost (or no boost of course), Other Webers allow you to attenuate the highs separate from the lows (labeled Low/mids and Mid/high) and if I turn that off it's not very good sounding at all (of course that is a bit relative because I'm use to it with the boost). That's the problem with using youtube for demos (which I also do a lot), you're stuck listening to someone else's techniques, the key lies in knowing what you can do something about and what you can't.

If an iso cab sounds too boxy it's my firm belief that the blame should be put on the player and not the cab. Not to sound like I have a big head or anything but if I am not happy with my sound I'm hard on myself because I have failed. I think ZC said it all without even knowing it when he said he liked the Rivera iso cab the best, of course it sounded better...unlike the randall and jet city it has accommodations for two mics. When I mic my 4x12 I use two mics, Dean has a warehouse full of mics in front of his cab and his cab has 4 different speakers. susiwong has a similar set up, you see it's not the jet City that sounds bad or the Rivera that sounds good, it's about taking the time to work out the best configuration.

I'm fortunate because I have no dreams or deadlines, I have all the time in the world to experiment and the knowledge I pick up along the way is more important to me than a song. I learn from trying different things, I learn things from my mistakes and most often I learn things by mistake because I get results I didn't expect.

Miking is just one technique that is not as simple as it sounds and I'm sorry but sims still have not imho nailed this, just because you can move and choose mics in sims is not enough. So if you go with a live rig you have to be prepared to spend a lot of time working on just that. One thing is beam blocking, I am going to build a round grill to go over the speaker in the iso cab so I can tape it with duct tape. When you said that the Jet City sounded boxy I chuckled because one of my issues with it is the "ice pick to the head" effect, not boxy. I could buy a Weber Beam Blocker cheap but with it it's all or nothing. With my 4x12 I have tried different patterns of tape on the grill, different sizes and of course different placement of the pieces of tape and get many different tones. (SRV did this a lot) The iso cab does what I want, it keeps the outside noise out and keeps the noise level down so I dont bother others, that's what I wanted when I bought it...how it sounds is in my hands and my hands only.

So yeah, there are a lot of techniques and some people want to flip a switch, select a preset and maybe do some tweaking and that's all well and good. People are going to hear a cab, an amp, a guitar or whatever and think "that's how it sounds". I am a craftsman from head to toe and I look for what I want from a piece of gear and what I can do to modify it better to my liking. (having a strong background as a machinist helps, there are times in a shop you will spend more time building a jig that you will destroy just to do one operation than it takes to do the operation itself so you start off thinking this way) The only results that matter are the results that matter to me and what I am after, not what other people like. I really enjoy that part of playing and it has always been a part of who I am, and the end of the day I can "own" my sound

---

hibidy - Tue May 22, 2012 4:56 pm

---

Nothing to see here, just an in so I can remember to look at this later.

---

Hink - Tue May 22, 2012 6:12 pm

---

---

hibidy - Tue May 22, 2012 6:35 pm

---

I just discovered the thread, want to look at it later, don't want to forget......but not in the mood to deal with it currently

---

zerocrossing - Tue May 22, 2012 7:02 pm

---

Damn it, why isn't Hibidy ever in the mood?

---

zerocrossing - Tue May 22, 2012 7:37 pm

---

While it's true that as you get to a certain price point there's a point of diminishing returns, you also get what you pay for. Also, nothing is perfect and there is always compromise, As you might know, I've been a pretty big proponent of modeling software... well, hardware too if you consider the fact that I ditched real amps years ago due to flexibility reasons. I'm not sure what my first amp modeler actually was... I think an ART SGX2000. I even managed to get some great sounds out of it... but that might be the nostalgia talking. Anyway, I've been though a lot of high-tech guitar gear including stuff from Line6, though I must admit I never fell in love with the distortion stompbox modeler... the yellow one from years ago... I did love the Vox Tonelab though. That seemed to be a more "natural" sound to me.

But even the Vox had issues. So-so effects that didn't sync to a MIDI clock made me to to a Boss VF-1 (who's amp modeling was piss poor) for it's pretty decent digital effects. I was pretty happy...

I had no good bass solution and that's what led me to Amplitube SVX. God I still love the way that software sounds. The rest of it too. I only almost all their models at this point, though I have to admit the Jet City stuff didn't do much for me. YMMV as Susi Wong would say.

But Amplitube is a compromise as is an HD500. Frankly I've been listening to a TON of Line6 demos lately and IMO they do nothing that isn't available in Amplitube or S-Gear in terms of quality. Don't get me wrong, they're capable of sounding very good. I consider Amplitube and S-Gear top of the line in terms of software amp models.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcJ-uxfPTAE&feature=relmfu

But I doubt I'd ever be fooled into thinking it was an actual tube amp. I went with the Kemper because in all honesty the very first time I heard the demos something "snapped" in me that I didn't hear in any other amp modeler including the very expensive Axe FX. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that the Pod HD500/DT combo blows away the Axe FX.

So I'm not just wowed by some new tech or I would have been gaga for the Axe FX. I wasn't. Still don't see what the big deal is. Even when I had a chance to play with one in person I thought, "That sounds good." When I heard the Kemper demos I thought, "HEY! That sounds like a good amp!" (I also thought this about the DT25/HD500, though to be fair it is a real tube amp with digital help) Note I used the word "like." I'm fully aware that in the right conditions most of us wouldn't even be totally fooled by the Kemper... but I think it's as close as we'll get without using a system that pushes AC out of tubes into a box with a speaker. And trust me, if I found an iso cab that was fairly priced that I liked the sound of, I would have gone HD500/DT25, which btw, is more expensive than the Kemper. But the Kemper has one thing on it's side and that's it's small and totally silent.

And, without having to spend over $2k on the DT25/HD500/SilentSister combo, I actually have enough scratch left over to augment it with an HD500, which I've pretty much decided I'm going to grab.

---

zerocrossing - Tue May 22, 2012 7:40 pm

---

Thanks sir! Maybe I'll break into your studio in the night and profile all your amps like some sonic guitar tone Vampire.

---

hibidy - Tue May 22, 2012 7:53 pm

---

I hate you



gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas..........

---

zerocrossing - Tue May 22, 2012 8:40 pm

---

That's it. I'm officially resigning as president of the Hibidy fan club.

---

hibidy - Tue May 22, 2012 8:46 pm

---

---

hibidy - Tue May 22, 2012 8:47 pm

---

On a serious note I can't wait to hear what you have to say about it.

My thing is I'm so solitary I have nobody to go profile So it would be all about the profiles provided.

---

Uncle E - Tue May 22, 2012 9:16 pm

---

You can subscribe to threads on the bottom left of this page.

---

hibidy - Tue May 22, 2012 9:32 pm

---

Does a subscription mean getting spammed with emails? I know for example you can't UNSUBSCRIBE from a thread in the literal term so not sure what the advantage is (other than saving one post, it's different on other forums as far as I can tell)

I use the "all my forum posts" for checking on what is going on, it's where my bookmark takes me.

---

Uncle E - Tue May 22, 2012 9:48 pm

---

Totally agree on the Axe FX. I had the latest one and sold it within a month. None of the patches came anywhere near giving me the experience of standing in front of an amp.

When I first played the Kemper, it was immediately after playing the Burriss Royal Bluesman. I was totally blown away by the Royal Bluesman's dynamics, it's probably the most dynamic tube amp I've ever played (Deluxe Reverb clean to cranked 18W Marshall grind by simply adjusting pick attack). So, when I discovered the dynamics knob on the Kemper and was able to dial in nearly the exact same dynamics control out of it (plus, with a much wider tonal selection available with those dynamics), I was sold.

---

zerocrossing - Tue May 22, 2012 10:00 pm

---

Oh, trust me. I don't know many musicians with cool amps to profile. There is a pretty big community of them though, from what I can see. I'll know more when I get it... Though I've yet to get a tracking number.

(hint hint Eric! Get that f'er to me!)

---

hibidy - Tue May 22, 2012 10:16 pm

---

Well, you'd think from lala land to SF would be pretty easy

---

Uncle E - Tue May 22, 2012 10:34 pm

---

Try it and see.

---

hibidy - Tue May 22, 2012 10:39 pm

---

I like my method better

---

zerocrossing - Wed May 23, 2012 6:48 am

---

Or do what I do, find a post you somewhat agree with and plus one it.

---

polaris20 - Wed May 23, 2012 9:38 am

---

I hear Guitar Center has a great return policy.

---

Hink - Wed May 23, 2012 9:56 am

---

Mars did too A salesman's worst nightmare...just when you think you're going to get a nice fat commission check in comes a return. At Mars it was 45 days (any wonder they only lasted a short while), once some guys came in and bought several thousand dollars worth of recording gear and fx. About a month later they came in and returned it all, though the policy was no questions asked my manager did ask why and they simply said "we finished our cd". (of course they got their refund)

So just a point from the perspective of the salesman, keep it in mind when returning things. You might be taking food off the table of a salesman...at GC you might cost him his job because if you do not make your draw more than once or twice they (at least around here) are known to can people

---

Hink - Wed May 23, 2012 9:58 am

---

Sir? I was a non com, I even turned down West Point...dont sir me BTW no need to break in, we could steam up a bunch of lobstas and clams and have a New England feast (unless you dont like seafood, than it's my chili )

---

zerocrossing - Wed May 23, 2012 10:51 am

---

Oh, trust me I've already thought of that. ...but I probably wouldn't stoop to that considering it seems like there are already a lot of people with a lot better rooms and mics who have beat me to most of the good stuff. One thing I'd like to do though is track down a few amps from my past and see if I could profile them for old time's sake.

---

zerocrossing - Wed May 23, 2012 11:26 am

---

Actually, I'm pretty pissed at JRRshop right now as there was no indication at all that it wasn't in stock when I ordered it and I had to send an email to find out they didn't even have it. Bad form.

---

hibidy - Wed May 23, 2012 12:22 pm

---

Sweetwater. But you probably wouldn't get the 15% off. Yeah, that is a drag though, bummed for you.

---

Hink - Wed May 23, 2012 1:22 pm

---

did they give you a time frame? Keep in mind that they are not one of the music retail giants and it's not easy for them to stock big ticket items. I'm only guessing but I suspect that JRR is ordering the amp for you, being the middleman, giving you a discount and probably not making a whole lot off of the deal. So go a little easy on them, I ordered my P-rails from them and it probably took a day or two longer than other places but I didn't care. I do agree with you that they should state this, but try and put yourself in their shoes...there is a lot of competition.

I have felt bad because I have bought things (like my Jet City 50 watt) from AMS and not from Eric. I like the three payments billed to my card over three months that AMS has plus when I want it fast I go to AMS because they are in Jersey. With standard shipping (free over 250 bux ) it ships the same day if I order it early enough and it's here the next day. (I use to drive a truck for a company across the street from UPS here and I use to go to the same town in Jersey so I know it's about a 5 hour trip). That is important to me because I live in an apartment complex that is huge, fedex will leave a package outside if no one is home so I want to be able to plan to be home. (thankfully most stuff comes UPS and the UPS drivers know me well and appreciate my xmas lotto ticket presents but fedex can't even figure out there is a back driveway here and they walk 150' uphill to my back door...poor guy did that with the iso cab )

I know how you feel because I do not have a lot of patience and when it comes to something like this I'm worse...even though I'm not very good at it I hope you can see their plight....at least like AMS is to me they are close to you. It sucks now but a month from now you'll forget all about it

---

Uncle E - Wed May 23, 2012 3:58 pm

---

Buy it from Sweetwater, then return it to them when you receive it from us. I'll give it to you for 20% off to make up for the disappointment.

(hibidy, you can have the 20% discount, too, just because I like you ).

---

Uncle E - Wed May 23, 2012 4:04 pm

---

Thanks! Kemper is a bit tough for us because we can't afford to stock more than half a dozen and they themselves only bring a limited amount into the country at a time. It just so happens that the stars almost aligned here, where they received a shipment and are sending them at nearly the same time as this order, it was unfortunately just not aligned enough.

btw, I think we're one of the Top 10 grossing independent stores in the US now.


Some day, my friend, some day.

---

hibidy - Wed May 23, 2012 5:53 pm

---

I can't afford it right now

---

zerocrossing - Wed May 23, 2012 7:48 pm

---

As an ex music retail veteran, I totally understand the plight. You were awesome helping me make this decision, which is a pretty big one to me. My disappointment would have dissipated pretty quickly if the site had simply said, "Limited stock, more coming soon" or "Currently sold out of this popular item, more expected XX/XX" and I'd just patiently waited. I only got angry because there was every indication that it was in stock ("Item added 5/21") and I saw the credit charge go though, which is normally something that happens when an item ships. At least that's how it's always worked at places I've worked and at places I buy from.

No hard feelings, but I think you'd do a bit better service to your customers if you just adopted a different policy when it came to temporarily out of stock. A simple line on the confirmation email explaining there was going to be a wait would have made a ton of difference. Don't worry, my G.A.S. is endless. They'll be other purchases.

---

Uncle E - Wed May 23, 2012 8:17 pm

---

I actually created jrrshop.com in 2001 and the site has been on the same framework ever since. The good news is we're extremely close to launching our new site that we've been developing for over two years and this site will have all those features you guys are talking about.

I really appreciate having you guys giving all this amazing input and I will be e-mailing our admin the link to this thread.

---

There are 77 posts in this topic.