KVR :: Instruments » Can just any sampler do this or is it unique to rayblaster? [View Original Topic]
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Aiynzahev - Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:04 pm

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Not trying to spam but I'd just really like to know if you guys have found this kind of sample manipulation in other samplers

http://soundcloud.com/aiyn-zahev/rayblaster-is-brilliant

The sample is just a girl going "Hey, hey" and the guy says "don't stop, party rock"

Thing is as far as I remember all thats happening here is the modwheel is changing the start position in the sample and the sample is being looped in some way.

I'd have to take a look at the patches again because I forget what was going on now.

Also anyone here got the Roland V-synth? Does it do stuff like this?

Sami

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Sendy - Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:09 pm

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You could do something similar in a sampler like the free Shortcircuit. That has full automation of loop points, start points, etc.

That said RB has some unique controls and has a sound of it's own. Often what it does with loops can sound quite lo-fi or unsettled/borked, but I like that.

Overall, I'd say it's strong point was making pads and textured sounds, but it's very versatile and deep if you want to spend time with it.

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aMUSEd - Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:25 pm

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Oh yes, only mod wheel is pretty basic; with the V Synth you have the timetrip pad to play with, you can use it to do all sorts of crazy stuff with samples, not just change start position but stretch, stutter, reverse etc all in realtime using touch gestures. It's not just a simple XY, different movement trajectories do different things to the sound. Plus you have the 2 D Beams and trad mod wheel too.

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justin3am - Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:30 pm

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Yes, and yes! The V-Synth is great for manipulating samples like this. You can even use an oscillator to FM a sample and vice versa. It's a remarkable synth with a unique sound.

Many samplers won't let you move loop points with automation or MIDI. I use ableton's Simpler/Sampler, Reaktor, Alchemy, my V-Synth, Octatrack and Phonogene eurorack module for this kind of thing.

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zlatan - Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:33 pm

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I think Rayblaster is very unique and can produce sounds no other synth or sampler I know can make.
At first I thought it was only good for pads and textures , but the more time I spent with it the more I got out of it.

Nice Bass, Pluck and Lead sounds.

I love the surprise factor .... you never really know what comes out of it.

Still think the presets are horrible and in no way represent what this synth is capable of.

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Neon Breath - Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:47 pm

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You can achieve pretty much the same results with granular synths.

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bludreamsounds - Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:38 pm

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The vsynth has been more powerful as sampler than it is as a synth, Dont get me wrong, the synth engine is solid but the addition of bringing samples into a full set of synth tools with elast audio, granular synthesis, step modulator,auto pitch mapping to the keys, stomp box models AND a vocoder in 1 box. It's a decent set of tools wrapped in one.

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Ingonator - Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:03 am

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If you import samples into RB (instead of using short short single cycles) uisng the Resynthesis feature the result sounds like granular synthesis. In that case The Formant knob does change the tuning and the "Tune" knob adjusts the "grain depth". You could adjust the harmonic value to zoom in an out the sample, set the starting point manually and/or modulate the start point with e.g. a LFO,

This is more or less and additional feature to using "normal" or short waveforms as with those e.g. the Formant knob works differently.

I have used some of my own samples for some presets that i have sumbmitted for an upcoming soundset based on Atmospheres.

Currently working on demos for it.


BTW the first Rablaster soundset called Futuron besides 50 additional waveforms created by myself also includes some new samples for the Resynthesis feature:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=369798


Ingo

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elcallio - Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:37 am

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At the risk of self-promotion; TX16Wx will let you modulate start + loop points using any external controller or internal modulator. And its actively supported.

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Ingonator - Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:40 am

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Any sarcasm with that part of your post? To me it sounded like Tone2 abandoned Rayblaster already.
If you talk about a missing forum here at KVr you could have a look here.
http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?board=30.0

Besides that (with all due respect for your product) Rayblaster got a certain combination of features besides start phase modulation which seem to make it quite unique.
Not to forget that Rayblaster is also available for the latest OSX which made a total rewrite of the graphics engine necessary. Rayblaster is also not inteneded to work like a "normal" sampler so a comparison to TX16Wx could be difficult.
I have installed the free version of TX16w. It does not seem to include factory samples and factory presets.

UPDATE:
I tried to use the start point modulation in TX16w but this does not seem to deliver the same result as in Rayblaster. Like other samplers also with TX16Wx you got a problem of properly stretching a single sample (e.g. from C3) over the whole keyboard. For proper results usually multiple samples are necessary.

You could also not to waveform transformations like with the "Osc windows" and "PW sequences" like in Rayblaster. Rayblaster also got no real filter but it extracts filter responses from the waveform (usually single cycles but also longer waveforms) you feed into it which could either result in replication of the filter of a certain synth (works only with a single cycle waveform that is created in a certain way) or in a "fantasy filter". Again i don't see any way to do the same in TX16Wx.

Currently i don't know any other synth that could get similar results from single cycles or single short samples/waveforms (up to around 60000 samples in length).
As mentioned in my last post importing a longer sample with the Resynthesis feature usually results in sounds similar to granular synthesis.


Ingo

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core - Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:34 am

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Cool sound manipulation
I think granular synths can do this type of stuff well indeed.
Got an itch to play with Rayblaster now

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Ingonator - Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:01 am

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Quote from the comment at that Soundcloud demo:
"I was also surprised that some of my wildest sounds were not included in the factory bank! Here is what was missed, I will speak to them about it, or make them available for free."

I got the same "problem". Even if several of my presets are included with the factory soundsets, the Futuron expansion and the next upcoming soundset there are still many unpublished presets. Same about my Saurus presets. At some point i'll have to decide how i could publish those remaining presets.
I see three options: Either those will be part of a later official soundset from Tone2 or i make them part of a big soundset with only my own presets (with several additional new ones of course) or publish them for free. Publishing free presets should be done a t a later point where they do not directly "rival" with the commercial soundsets which already include some of my presets.


Ingo

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Nielzie - Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:31 am

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I think he meant Shortcircuit with that, which was mentioned earlier. It's more comparable to TX16Wx but unfortunately not actively developed anymore, since the developer joined the Bitwig team years ago.

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ThomasHelzle - Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:40 am

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You can do that kind of thing very nicely with Harmor.
Does even sound better in some regards - to my ears at least.

Cheers,

Tom

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Aiynzahev - Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:55 am

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Oh good one. And I guess one of DiscoDSP synths does this too right?

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ThomasHelzle - Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:11 am

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I wouldn't have any idea about those.

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Ingonator - Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:47 am

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Only similar feature i see is that you could morph between two waveforms like with the Wave 1/2 mix in Rayblaster.
I don't think the start phase parameter could be compared to that in Rayblaster, especially if bigger waveforms or "wavetables" (up to 60000+ samples in length) are loaded into Rayblaster.

Besides that the basic principles seem to be totally different and sound quality is a matter of taste.


Ingo

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vurt - Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:05 am

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i think most samplers can do what you ask.the only feature exclusive to rayblaster is the supposed filter emulation, which to my ears isnt that impressive for emulating actual filters (didnt come close to emulating anything i put into it in any meaningful fashion) but does occassionally produce ok results from "fantasy filters" but nothing overly exciting in the long run.

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Ingonator - Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:33 am

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As i already explained at the original Rayblaster thread those waveforms with the filter responses have to be created in a certain way to be useful.
If you just create a single cycle based on the full Cutoff of the original filter the possible range in Rayblaster is very narrow.
The best values i found so far is around 25%-40% of the Cutoff (related to the knob position, not the frequency). A basic rule is that the Cutoff point of a Lowpass filter should be around 1000 Hz (measured with a signal analyzer) for the waveform/sample you create.

Several examples could be found e.g. in the factory library, the factory sounds or here: http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=1336.0

As already mentioned this kind of "emulation" got it's limits. One of them is that for a resonant filter you also need a resonant waveform/filter response.
The harmonic value and the starting phase got an important impact too. Besides that like in the original synth the filter is influenced by e.g. the Formant value (similar to Cutoff), Filter envelope, filter envelope amount and filter keytrack amount.

I guess i already explained that to you in the other thread but you never replied.

The question is also not how accurate those filters are emulated but basd on my experience you get get some very nice results, especially with the resonant waveforms. The filter responses created from different synths usually also sound quite different in Rayblaster. IMO the most interesting results are obtained when you layer an "analog" waveforms with one of a more "digital" approach (by using both oscillators). Also mixing those two waveforms in a single oscillator could be interesting.
There are lots of options if you really use some time to try it.



Ingo

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vurt - Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:49 am

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yeah, i tried the methods you suggested, i still didnt find it worked in any useful manner for any of the filters i tried. was ok at basic hi pass/low pass, but getting any actual character from any of my filters didnt prooduce any meaningful results.


sorry i didnt reply, i didnt see any need to as i didnt see rayblaster as anything useful to me.

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LeVzi - Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:54 am

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OK that audio in the OP's post is just mad !

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vurt - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:02 pm

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bugger

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thecontrolcentre - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:10 pm

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Cool

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ThomasHelzle - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:23 pm

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So you never tried the resynthesis in Harmor.
I find it very impressive. You can do basically the same as in the example and the result - to my ears - is smoother.
I experiment a lot with human voice so this is an area of special interest to me.
Harmor is currently my go-to device for such things.

BTW:
What is the problem with you rayblaster evangelists? Why do you feel it necessary to iterate five million times how great it is and how unrivalled? I'm sure it's cool but why that overprotectionism? Some people like it, others don't and the op actually asked if other synths/samplers can do something similar to the posted example.
And the answer is simply "Yes, many".

Just cool down a bit, won't you?
Breathe.

It's really getting annoying.

Cheers,

Tom

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mkdr - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:23 pm

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Ensoniq samplers?

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cron - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:28 pm

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Nice sounds, although it's kinda hard to hear what RayBlaster is doing there due to all the reverb (i.e. whether it's an FFT or granular thing). Wicked transformations anyway!

You can get somewhere close with vanilla granular synthesis. Here's a kinda similar voice twist I did a few years ago with a basic granulator. http://soundcloud.com/chqtestsubjects/cecilia-singin-in-the-fog

Having said this, I'm sure RayBlaster's power lies in how expressively the synthesis can be controlled. I'm not really aware of anything else that would let you create a sound like the OP's in one take.

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pdxindy - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:35 pm

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Harmor has no Mac version... otherwise i would buy it in a heartbeat... I agree it is very impressive!

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Aiynzahev - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:35 pm

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haha, very entertaining. Very similar too.

The the single male voices it's much easier to hear RB in my demos. all the effects are internal anyway.

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pdxindy - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:37 pm

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Useful maybe, but it never actually emulates even a basic LPF... it can sound kinda like a LPF over a short range but that is it... It is a different thing altogether and (imo) should be appreciated for what it is, not presented as something it isn't

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Aiynzahev - Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:39 pm

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There was a thread were George from discoDSP showcased resynthesis of three synths, his, Harmor and I think one of the Virsyn synths. His was clearly the smoothest and that's probably why he did the comparison.

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:22 am

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If you were involved with Rayblaster from the start during Beta testing, creating waveforms for it from scratch, by doing tons of single cycles of other synths and finally creating around 160+ presets and then audio demos you would be a bit "overprotective" too maybe.

The combination of ALL features in Rayblaster still seems to be quite unique. Two examples are the Osc windows and the PW sequences. Picking out a few and saying that this other synth is similar to Rayblaster is not correct IMO.

For example Harmor is based on an additive engine and Rayblaster is not. That's already a big difference. Then Harmor does include a certain amount of filter modes. Rayblaster does create the filter response based on the waveform you "feed" into it which could either lead to something like an emulation or lead to some crazy "fantasy filters" with big changes in the timbre while turning the Formant knob.


Ingo

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:08 am

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I tried to explain thise here a while ago (using screenshots and audio demos):

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=364536&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=765


Ingo

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:54 am

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Audio demos moved here:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5218003#5218003

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tenshin111 - Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:40 am

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Agreed.

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vurt - Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:33 am

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but the question was about specific features, which are available in many other synth/samplers.

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:40 am

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*edited*

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vurt - Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:45 am

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but they have absolutely no connection to the ops question.

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:56 am

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Sure they have. They show how broad the spectrum of possible timbres of Rayblaster is. For one example it would be possible to find a synth that does them but for ALL of those it is more difficult so those are directly related to the OP...

One type of synth that comes to my mind is a wavetable synth like e.g. Largo but that one will have problems doing granular style sounds.
Then there is Alchemy but that one could have problems with the wavetable like sounds and maybe also some others.


Ingo

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Kriminal - Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:07 am

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that wasnt the question:

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:10 am

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Hi Kriminal,

still posting on Tone2 thread? We both know that you hardly find a good word for those...


Ingo

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vurt - Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:17 am

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its not a tone2 thread, its a kvr instruments forum thread, asking if anything other than rayblaster can do something specific.
are you saying that no other sampler can do what the op asked?

most sample players (probably all, i havent used them all) can do the specific things asked about.

there was no "so what sounds is rayblaster capable of?" there was a specific question, which your audio demos in no way answer.

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Kriminal - Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:24 am

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vurt answered your question for me

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:28 am

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That's not the question. I gave examples about what Rayblaster is able to and that's all. Others could draw their conclusions.

Besides that Rayblaster is no typical "sampler". It could use single cycles, short samples or import samples with the Resynthesis feature but i would not call it a sampler. A sampler also usually includes fixed filter models. Rayblaster creates filter responses based on the waveforms that are used with it.


Ingo

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Kriminal - Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:34 am

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that was exactly the question



why? the OP didnt ask for any and the ones you gave are not relevant to his question




his question was based on that single example, your soundbites have nothing to do with his question

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vurt - Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:31 pm

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no one said it was a piece of crap, we just pointed out that yes, many other things can do what the op asked for.
are you suggesting that nothing else can do what the op asked for?

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:37 pm

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Are you actually really reading my posts or do you want to do trolling here?

In how many ways should i answer that question again?


Ingo

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vurt - Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:48 pm

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its a simple yes or no, can anything else do what the op asked for? not all rayblasters features, just the ones the op sepcifically askd about.

or are you just here to spam for tone2?

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dalor - Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:13 pm

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*Both Alchemy and Harmour can both do this. In Alchemy, switch to Granular synthesis, assign sample start to Modwheel, forward speed to 1% (to have some movement), press any note on your keyboard and move modwheel.

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Ingonator - Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:41 pm

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Obviously the answer for that one specific sound would be a kind of Granular synth like e.g. Alchemy but i have not checked that so far. I am not sure if it will work the same way as in Rayblaster. One reason is that not just the start point is shifted while modulation but the whole part of the sample/waveform that is currently displayed in the oscillator window (you could "zoom" in and out with the harmonic value). This could correspond more to wavetable/waveform scanning.
My first guess is that replicating it exactly does not seem to be easy.

In some granular like sounds for Rayblaster i did not use the Modwheel for the start phase modulation but the LFO. Using an envelope or the Arp pattern is possible too.

UPDATE:
I tried loading the same samples used for my own Rayblaster patches/demos into the Granular engine of Alchemy but besides the fact that it sounds interesting and even into the right direction it does not really seem to sound the same.



And no, i am not "spamming" for Tone2. I am just someone with some knowledge about Rayblaster (who was also involved with beta testing and sound design for it) that offers informations and sometimes audio demos.



Ingo

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SadPuppyBlues - Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:17 pm

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So, I hope you guys learned to not play along with Ingo when he decides to offer informations [sic] about a Tone2 product.

Wowwie, the entire thread is hijacked.

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Aiynzahev - Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:21 pm

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Basically here is why a normal sampler should be able to do this, I am just too lazy to find out myself. Actually It's because I couldn't remember what RayBlaster was actually doing but its this:

A point in the sample is being looped, the Modwheel is moving the loop points back and forward.

Simple really. So as long as a synth or sample allows you to manipulate the loop point you should be able to do this crazy stuff. I'm sure I've heard this kind of thing done by Fatboy Slim

Now it remains for me to buy every synth and sampler out there.. excuse me please..

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:13 am

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As already explained in my other post it does not simply be about moving loop points. When a sample is imported with the resynthesis it's more like a granular synth. When you then change the start point (or statrt phase) not only that one is moved but the whole content currently displayed in the oscillator display.
This at least would need moving the start and the end point but this does not seem to be the solution too. For my own examples using the Granular synthesis in Alchemy seems to come much closer but still not the same yet.

It also depends on how much you "zoomed" into the sample/waveform using the Harmonic value in Rayblaster. When it's used for granular like sounds the Formant knob is controlling the tune and the Tune knob sets the Grain density.



FWIW i just have moved my audio demos to the "original" Rayblaster thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5218003#5218003



Ingo

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vurt - Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:16 am

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you dont have to buy every sampler, there have been a few mentioned in the thread.
and it is quite a simple "feature" its just a matter of attaching the modwheel to the parameters you desire, i can even do this with orions onboard sampler.

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:22 am

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*edited*

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cron - Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:49 am

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Sounds like the time-synchronous onset variant of granular synthesis. I suspected this might be how Rayblaster worked. The example I posted is using this method. What sounds like pitch manipulation is actually manipulation of grain onset speed (or density) while changing the pitch of the grains themselves results in formant shifts when grain onset is at audio rates. It's a really interesting and counterintuitive method of sound manipulation which is very much underexplored (most people seem to gravitate toward asynchronous onset times to make 'clouds' when playing with granulators).

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:09 am

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examples moved here:

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=1446.0

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ThomasHelzle - Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:06 am

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Ingo. I actually understand a situation like that VERY well.
And I have nothing against Rayblaster.
But the way you go about it is way over the top. It is my impression from the threads I read that you are actually doing Rayblaster a disservice, and yourself as well, as a valued and experienced member of this community.

Imagine every developer/sounddesigner/betatester on KVR would flood every thread where his product was mentioned. Flood it in a way that nobody else can say anything without being told what his or her tool is doing better and more of and more flexible and whatnot.

You imply by the way you word your posts, that nobody else has any clue about anything and a person not in love with Rayblaster is simply somehow uninformed about it, which you then try to solve by repeating the facts. Again.

Every person is different, has different interests and a different taste. What sounds good for one person may be bad for another. KVR is one of the places to meet and exchange ideas, not to preach absolute truths.
Sure we all get emotional (thanks god we do!) but the moment you try to completely dominate a discussion, the discussion dies, since it first has to get rid of the dominator before it can continue.
This is the point where certain people start to attack you back.
You make yourself into a target.
But you create that vibe yourself.
If you would just give your opinion on the topic all would be fine and welcome.

On your own Rayblaster thread I simply unsubscribed after a while, since it wasn't interesting anymore after a while and I actually felt bad for you. I had a hard time reading your posts since you seemed to be so hard and overzealous regarding Rayblaster.

But I feel frustrated if you highjack a thread where the topic clearly has a much wider focus and flood it with your posts. Again, it would be absolutely cool if you add your experience and wisdom like everybody else, but like in the case of harmor, I had the impression you didn't know that much about it and were just telling me off. Some of your other posts simply are not related to the original question at all.

I am very happy for you that you found a synth that you really love.
I have several as well.
Those may overlap or not.
That's cool

I don't write this as somebody with no clue about the problem.
I had and have a similar tendency myself.
I too had and have to learn to breathe...

I hope this can be taken in the spirit it was meant to from a fellow human

Cheers and Carpe Diem,

Tom

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LeVzi - Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:42 am

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I wouldn't be surprised if Kontakt could do it. But I wouldn't have a clue how to program it though.

Probably in the scripting, which is something that's just over my head completely.

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:09 am

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As i don't have access to the original patch in the OP i searched for a comparable one and did some tests how Rayblaster could handle comparable samples imported with the Resynthesis engine.
I have also mentioned that i have used e.g. TX16Wx and Alchemy to recreate the same sounds and that Alchemy seems to be the next best from the synths i own so far.
Before finding an answer to the question "which synth could do the same" first it must be explored what Rayblaster is capable of which is what i wanted to do, especially with the last demos i published in my last post above.
I also mentioned that i have moved my other audio demos to the "original" Rayblaster threda (which BTW was NOT started by myself...).

So far i was the only one providing examples besides just mentioning "Synth X could do the same" without posting any proof.



Ingo

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vurt - Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:33 am

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yeah kontakt should definitely be able to do this!
i dont have kontakt so it never springs to mind, but as its supposedly the be all and end all of samplers, im sure it could do what fbs was doing back then with his akai!

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ThomasHelzle - Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:39 am

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Ingo, I can only offer you a view from the outside, and that leads back to you and how you act.

No, I no longer read all your posts, simply because they don't help me in my personal interests. I tried Rayblaster, it wasn't for me. Maybe that will change in the future, maybe not.

As for Kriminal: You make it very easy for him. You offer him so many openings and make yourself into the perfect target. I often have to laugh when reading his posts, since he nails it sometimes just perfectly.
But he only can do that because you act the way you do. I actually often have to check myself to NOT attack you. I don't want to, I don't know you, I have nothing against you, but your posts trigger me very often in a non-positive way.
Your peculiar way to communicate in a very paternalist and absolute way makes the reader feel attacked and actually bullied, even if you may not be aware of it.
And that is the problem - in my view - you are actually very rude.

Just take this sentence: "Before finding an answer to the question "which synth could do the same" first it must be explored what Rayblaster is capable of".
Why MUST this be explored? If it is of interest to you, just do it, but why the imperative?

This is about music and sound, there is no right or wrong in this, especially not on KVR.
If you are a scientist trying to find the cure to a disease, you "MUST" find out a lot before you continue. But with sound or music, "which synth could do the same" is not about live or death, it's a rather diffuse question actually with many answers.
There will be synths or samplers that can do it very well and easy and with others it's more complicated. Maybe no other synth can do it the SAME on the bitlevel.
But that is not the real question.

It would make your life much easier if you could just tome it down a bit, leave some breathing space for others and just enjoy the ride, even chuckle if Kriminal in his very precise way has offered you another insight into yourself.
He is not an enemy.
He's just pointing at something YOU do.
He can't make you look ridiculous if you don't act ridiculous.

I wish you all the best!

Tom

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:53 am

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*deleted*

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vurt - Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:56 am

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ive just had a look at fat boy slim's kit list for "youve come a long way baby..." which has the type of sound (not the exact sound) sought after by the op, and i dont see rayblaster in there?

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:05 am

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That's the point. We do not talk about Fatboy Slim but about the example in the OP which seems to more complex than just shifting loop points.
As already mentioned it seems to be more like granular synthesis and i tried to explore this a bit with my last examples posted at the last page and also with some experiments in Alchemy.



Ingo

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Gosh - Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:34 am

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hi ingo, i totally agree with toms comments. take it more easy. provide some useful info (and i must say that i really like your sound examples and your factory patches for rayblaster) and then leave it be. i also have the impression that lately you try to dominate every thread where a tone2 synth is only even mentioned. this is makes you look bad and it shouldn't be like this because you are one of the few here who is really doing something for the community by e.g. providing waveforms or interesting sound examples.

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carrieres - Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:47 am

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hi,
it seems to me that non native English speaking people are bullied on kvr
native English don't try to understand our smaller subset of the language.
The example you gave us about using MUST is a perfect example !
so i will use the quoted text above and ask the question :
what about trying to understand non native English and enjoy the ride ?

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:57 am

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examples moved here:

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=1446.0

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Kriminal - Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:04 am

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shut it frenchie
















bonjour christophe

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Kriminal - Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:09 am

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on a serious note, the language barrier can be a problem sometimes. Ingo is German (i think) and very matter of fact. He doest get any of the humour and takes everything personally.

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carrieres - Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:40 am

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bonjour david

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Aiynzahev - Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:48 am

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Ah okay now I see what's different with RayBlaster. This is definitely the same effect but it doesn't sound nearly as vivid.

As for Fatboy slim, you can hear what I had in mind here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHBAEYXgviA
@2:55

And I understand that because RB is re-synthesizing the sample it would be different if I tried this one a sampler. I can't think how right now, but I am so lazy I really should just try this on Battery or something.

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:06 am

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Exactly my point. Nice to see you agree with that.


UPDATE:
Just an idea: Did anyone try this kind of stuff with Padshop Pro yet?
I'll try to get the trial version now. Hope the trial allows sample loading.


Ingo

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vurt - Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:13 am

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aiynzahev did.

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Nielzie - Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:40 am

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I don't fully agree. Sometimes it's funny yes indeed, but also sometimes they are crossing the trolling borderline too obviously and very sporadically they are just downright low (like the health insurance stab at lahalla. R.I.P. Reason).

But I'm not a native english speaker either, so

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stillshaded - Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:44 am

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good lord..


came here to say Harmor can do this.. was not aware I would be taking sides in WWIII.

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:57 am

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Not the first time this was mentioned. Examples ?



UPDATE:
Just installed the Harmor demo. First i thought it could only import single cycles but the i found you could import samples by drag & drop. Currently the result is a "clean" playback of the sample without many special things. Will have to check it more now.


UPDATE:

Here is the first example of Harmor using the same sample as i used in Alchemy and doing Mowheel modulation of the start time ("Time" parameter in the IMG section):

Harmor - LetsPartyTonight - MW 1

comparable examples from Rayblaster and Alchemy:

LetMeSeeYouMove - MW Mod 1

Alchemy - LetsPartyTonight - MW 1

Alchemy - LetsPartyTonight - Sampler - MW 1


Ingo

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cron - Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:58 am

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Here's another attempt at similar process via granulation. It's a bit unwieldly, and the automation could be tidier. Automating sample position, grain transposition, and grain frequency. Grain length is locked to the grain frequency. You can hear that the grain frequency determines pitch when it's repeating grains at audio rates. The grain transposition essentially becomes a formant control when you're dealing with such fast grain onsets. I'm convinced that a more sophisticated version of this type of granulation (i.e. with judicious parameter linking/control/modulation) is behind the Rayblaster engine. http://soundcloud.com/chqtestsubjects/rayclone

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Ingonator - Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:23 am

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Interesting but seems sounding different to the example in the OP and also different my examples but maybe close to the Alchemy Granular examples.

From your first example i did not really get which synth/plugin you used for this.


Ingo

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cron - Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:28 am

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The first example was an old patch (Singin in the Fog) for a CSound front-end called Cecilia. Probably about 10 years old. The second was made in Hourglass which is pretty much just a more modern version of the same thing. Both are offline processes though, not plug-ins. Hourglass is free. Highly recommended.

The first example I posted sounds better simply because I spent more time on it I think! Drew all the envelopes by hand etc. The second was just a bunch of (slightly edited) randomised envelopes on the parameters.

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stillshaded - Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:38 pm

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Here's some harmor wanking. Just mucking about for 3 minutes with no particular purpose.

It's a sample of a Jamaican dude saying "music is the food of love"

I modulated start time, formant, speed, a little of the harmonizer, and a little of the prism effect.

http://soundcloud.com/sti11sh-ded/harmor-vox-shite-2

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Aiynzahev - Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:42 pm

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Ace examples guys!!

Part of my post was really to determine what other tools out there will give me some crazy manipulation like RB. It's nice to hear different engines working.

I really liked the Harmor demo and then Cron's example is really cool too.

Does make me appreciate RB a bit more actually, it's pretty amazing how easy it is to do things like this in it.

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cron - Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:58 pm

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The long-awaited 1.3 beta of Hourglass (which I used to create the second example, but it's capable of everything in the first example too) came out today so there's never been a better time to give it a whirl. Possibly the most underrated software around right now. I can only assume it's received such little attention (bar a few ecstatic followers like myself) because it doesn't run as a plug-in. It's one of those pieces of software that reveals more and more depth and functionality the more you use it. Thread here http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5218740#5218740

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pdxindy - Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:20 pm

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Thanks Tom for your insightful and thoughtful comments...

+1

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pdxindy - Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:40 pm

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RB is excellent for this sort of stuff... It sounds good almost all of the time under heavy manipulation. It has a particular sonic character, but it is pleasing (to me at least)...

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Ingonator - Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:15 am

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Your reply sounds like he actually knows me which is not the case. i only really know him from his comments about me. Our only real "contact" besides this thread seemed to be two comments i made about his posts in the first Rayblaster thread and it looks he did not reply to those. So much about "insightful" (thoughtful maybe yes...).
I also mentioned he could discuss such things with PMs and not in the public.

Opposing to what he mentioned in his posts i guess i have offered several "on topic" contributions to this thread (especially at the last pages) and also moved my other demos to the other Rayblaster thread.


Ingo

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Ingonator - Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:41 am

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Indeed. At my Rayblaster examples at page 4 i showed that once you turn off e.g. the "Sync" and/or "BPM" switches in the oscillator section the result does sound far from "usual" sample playback. Also the modulation of the start phase with different modulation sources like e.g. a LFO with different parameters (waveshape and/or speed), the envelopes and the Arp steps could lead to interesting results like also shown those examples at page 4.

My own conclusion is that it was fun to try the same kind of stuff with other synths like e.g. Alchemy and also one with the Harmor demo version but at the end i guess i'll stay with Rayblaster for this kind of stuff.


Ingo

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carrieres - Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:16 am

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-10000
nor pdxindy or ThomasHelzle posted useful comments for the OP !
what is the point of your posts ?
what is your sig about ?
your sig does not even respect kvr rules
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44705
and you want to give lessons
i will not follow this thread anymore because you are bullying !
it's sad because Ingo posted very interesting sound example made with alchemy, harmor and rayblaster dedicating some time for the OP

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Ingonator - Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:43 am

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*deleted*

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ThomasHelzle - Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:58 am

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I'm sorry that I added to your feeling of uncomfort.
I'll leave you in peace.

Best regards,

Tom

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Ingonator - Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:49 am

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I just sent a PM to you.


Ingo

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Aiynzahev - Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:21 am

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For the record I haven't minded Ingo's many posts in the least, you've been very helpful Ingo, thanks.

Basically I did get an answer, no this technique is not unique to RB but the result IS.

Fatboy slim would have loved this stuff, In fact I wish I could have a hardware version of RB just so vocal manipulation.

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Neon Breath - Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:28 am

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'Stop watching this topic' clicked.

This thread is beyond repair.

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Ingonator - Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:24 am

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*deleted*

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Kriminal - Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:10 am

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i dont think you need any help with that



i said you dont have a sense of humour, which is true.



..and yet you still keep dragging me into your petty threads.

if you're gonna have a dig at me, im gonna reply, simple as.

press the mute button if you dont like what you read.

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Ingonator - Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am

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*deleted*

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Kriminal - Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:34 am

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Like i said, mute me.

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Ingonator - Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:40 am

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*deleted*

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Kriminal - Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:48 am

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I havent muted anyone. Why would i mute you? Its normally the best comedy here.

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Ingonator - Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:52 am

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So i should not reply to your posts but you could do with mine? Does not sound like a "deal" for me...

My offer is serious: You stop to eply to my posts and i promise to do the same
with yours.

Currently this seems to be the only way to avoid trouble. Opposing to you i don't see any "comedy" or fun in those discussions with you.


Ingo

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Kriminal - Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:02 am

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I said, if you dont like my posts, ignore them/mute me.

I didnt say anything about a deal.

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