KVR :: View topic - Diva replaces, well, everything...

KVR :: u-he » Diva replaces, well, everything... [View Original Topic]
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feeltheillinois - Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:52 pm

Having spent about 8 months with the Diva in the studio and on the run I love it. I have an assortment of analogues and I've come to the conclusion they are simply no longer needed. The tonal range on offer with the Diva is so wide and the sound quality is on par with every analogue I have. I actually even prefer it. Aside from the tempest the Diva can cover the rest. I'm rather pleased with it.

Any of you guys replaced your analogues with the Diva?

ksandvik - Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:03 pm

I did miss my old Jupiter-6 until I got Diva.

deastman - Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:07 pm

I never look at a new thing as replacing an old thing. Diva merely augments my analog synths. Damn fine synth though...

dalor - Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:08 pm

For sound design it still doesn't replace LuSH-101 with it's 8 layers. I own both and each have their place.

pdxindy - Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:14 pm

dalor wrote:

For sound design it still doesn't replace LuSH-101 with it's 8 layers. I own both and each have their place.

I can layer any synths I want in Live and save it as a preset. So any synth has 8 layers if I want it to.

analoguesamples909 - Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:29 pm

feeltheillinois wrote:

Im broke so I may sell my Moog Source, as on simple patches (which is all source can do anyway) Diva is very close. Its just a shame that with more filter closed sounds - it sounds a bit muted to me. I find with my analogue stuff even when you have the cutoff closed - there is air in the sound. Ive heard a few people say that also.

However I have an OB8 and Diva cannot replace it at all. In fact I am not really liking Diva for polyphonic sounds-because I dont think its Osc are ideal for the type of poly sounds I like (I prefer OB or P5 style for this). Plus I still find the high end a bit strident. I wish Urs would have introduced that muffle parameter he talked about...

Its good tho for sure. Not sure it could be my only 'analogue'...

djanthonyw - Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:51 pm

feeltheillinois wrote:

I had a Tetra and a Mopho at one point. I thought the sound was amazing, but I seriously hate working with hardware synths. No multiple instances unless you actually have more than one, no offline bouncing, keeping track of patches with your project...

I was thrilled when Diva came out and happily sold my hardware synths. The same thing happened for me with my digital hardware synths with Sylenth, although I am using z3ta instead now.

Honestly I think if I were to really narrow things down to two synths, Diva covers all analog sounds and z3ta covers all digital. I like having a few options for different character though. Lush and U-No-LX are really nice too.

dalor - Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:01 pm

pdxindy wrote:

dalor wrote:

For sound design it still doesn't replace LuSH-101 with it's 8 layers. I own both and each have their place.

I can layer any synths I want in Live and save it as a preset. So any synth has 8 layers if I want it to.

Thats nice that you have a workaround.

Guenon - Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:05 pm

dalor wrote:

pdxindy wrote:

dalor wrote:

For sound design it still doesn't replace LuSH-101 with it's 8 layers. I own both and each have their place.

I can layer any synths I want in Live and save it as a preset. So any synth has 8 layers if I want it to.

Thats nice that you have a workaround.

It's not a workaround, it's actually so convenient I usually prefer using it even if a synth itself has layers Razz

(and I can also layer different synths/effects within the same structure, defining control macros and velocity splits etc, and simply drag the whole thing into my library to be reused somewhere else in an instant, that sort of thing).

pdxindy - Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:52 pm

Guenon wrote:

dalor wrote:

pdxindy wrote:

dalor wrote:

For sound design it still doesn't replace LuSH-101 with it's 8 layers. I own both and each have their place.

I can layer any synths I want in Live and save it as a preset. So any synth has 8 layers if I want it to.

Thats nice that you have a workaround.

It's not a workaround, it's actually so convenient I usually prefer using it even if a synth itself has layers Razz

Exactly...

TomTwohy - Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:25 pm

Diva is next on my "Legit" list.

Sooo FAT and beefy.

Warm full Bass!!

V0RT3X - Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:30 pm

I sure would like to see a good arp in DIVA. Even something like Podolski has would be awesome!

Urs - Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:07 pm

V0RT3X wrote:

I sure would like to see a good arp in DIVA. Even something like Podolski has would be awesome!

We expect a reasonably powerful arpeggiator in April (Musikmesse). We also hope to have some other stuff till then (well, depends on how many issues are still found within the current public beta testing)

pdxindy - Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:10 pm

V0RT3X wrote:

I sure would like to see a good arp in DIVA. Even something like Podolski has would be awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94kc7KLxqUM

V0RT3X - Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:17 pm

pdxindy wrote:

V0RT3X wrote:

I sure would like to see a good arp in DIVA. Even something like Podolski has would be awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94kc7KLxqUM

Thats ACE! *Pun Intended*

I don't normally use arps that much, but I am starting to really like them for modulation sources!

I am going to be re-buying all U-HE stuff back soon enough <3

ford442 - Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:47 pm

my only analog is now my FR-777 - if Diva had some 303 guts then it would be close to pushing that off of my desk as well though.

V0RT3X - Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:52 pm

ford442 wrote:

my only analog is now my FR-777 - if Diva had some 303 guts then it would be close to pushing that off of my desk as well though.

What do you think of the D16 stuff?

ford442 - Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:54 pm

i have used Phoscyon since it came out. it is a nice sound. i find ABL a little closer to the original. Lush has moved my SH-101 off of my working area - but, the FR-777 has a unique quality and powerful multi-osc sounds that normal 303 emu's don't cover.

pdxindy - Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:58 pm

V0RT3X wrote:

I am going to be re-buying all U-HE stuff back soon enough <3

Why ever would you sell in the first place?

V0RT3X - Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:11 pm

pdxindy wrote:

V0RT3X wrote:

I am going to be re-buying all U-HE stuff back soon enough <3

Why ever would you sell in the first place?

I was desperate and needed some money for some urgent bills.

Trust me I regret it.

pdxindy - Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:19 pm

V0RT3X wrote:

pdxindy wrote:

V0RT3X wrote:

I am going to be re-buying all U-HE stuff back soon enough <3

Why ever would you sell in the first place?

I was desperate and needed some money for some urgent bills.

Trust me I regret it.

Ahhh... yes, that is a painful reason... Sad

News From The Sky - Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:23 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:

Interesting - I've been curious to know how well Diva can emulate the Source.

Do you have any tips for how to tweak Diva to sound most Source-like? Any things (other than the muted sound with a closed filter) to watch out for? How do the ranges for the Source's parameters compare to Diva? (eg, does Diva's filter knob cover a wider range or is it about the same? When you match a sound, are the knobs in similar positions or are there certain knobs that are pretty different and you have to rely on your ears to dial it in?)

Sorry for the barrage of questions, just very curious and it sounds like you've become pretty familiar with the similarities and differences.

Sorry you're broke, too. That's a tough spot to be in, and having to give up a favored synth to pay the bills really sucks. Hope things improve soon.

Urs - Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:22 pm

I don't have a source, but in general Diva's knobs have a larger range. This is most audible in the Cutoff modulation knobs. On normal synths the modulation by envelope goes unipolar between 0 and 5V, so about 5 octaves. Our modulation knob covers almost 11 Octaves and is bipolar, hence 22 Octaves. As a rule of thumb, cutoff modulation depth maps "one way round" of the analogue knob to "12 o'clock till about 3 o'clock" on Diva's filters.

Keyfollow otoh is always perfectly matched, every synth seems to map 100% keyfollow to note frequency tuning. The breakpoint may vary though, in Diva it's either c3 or e3 (can't remember), in some other synths it may be a different note.

Other modulation knobs are either matched (PWM comes to mind) or simply feature a wider range due to bipolar behaviour.

For almost everything else Diva's knobs are quite well matched, say, +/- 10% towards the reference synths we have. Filter tuning and relative oscillator volume were the main areas where we had to compromise.

Oh yes, Glide times and main/VCA volume are of course "u-he", we haven't done anything to match those at all Smile

Sendy - Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:37 pm

When the arp is added I'm hoping there'll be arbitrary clock rates as I use arps for chiptune/SID style "chord on one voice" effects a lot Smile

If not arbitrary, then the ability to go up to 64th and 128th notes would be useful to get "fast" timings in a range of tempii.

Urs - Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:40 pm

Sendy wrote:

When the arp is added I'm hoping there'll be arbitrary clock rates as I use arps for chiptune/SID style "chord on one voice" effects a lot Smile

If not arbitrary, then the ability to go up to 64th and 128th notes would be useful to get "fast" timings in a range of tempii.

Will think about it Wink

DHR53 - Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:06 pm

Not Zebra... Cool

pdxindy - Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:20 pm

DHR53 wrote:

Not Zebra... Cool

or Bazille Cool

analoguesamples909 - Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:41 pm

News From The Sky wrote:

I have to admit I have not focussed on things like position of settings when comparing my Source - more the sound. One thing I do with Diva is to use the analogue ADSR envelopes - as the Source also has ADSR, and obviously the Source only has 2 Osc. In terms of sound the Source Osc are slightly different - I can get a slightly more 'reedy' pulse out of the Source - but the Diva Osc seem more 'sonorous' which I attribute to the Minimoog oscillators. Its pretty close tho to be honest. I have not compared the sync sounds between them yet. The Source is a simple synth tho so tbh there is not much tweaking that needs to be done to Diva to sound similar. I still find the Diva high end to be a bit shrill compared to the analogue - when you have the filter open. I think slight analogue movement perhaps makes high frequencies slightly more easy to listen to. The low end is strong on Diva tho and comparable with my analogue machine which is impressive - every other VA emulation has very much lacked in this area that Ive tried...

yeah being broke aint great but hey easy come easy go-gotta go with the flow. Its been a pleasure and a bit of a luxury for me to own some vintage synths - and they have gained value. Although tech fees took up a bit of that...

djanthonyw - Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:15 pm

I used to have a Mopho and a Tetra. I made this little demo of "Strobe" with one of the presets on the Tetra for fun a while ago when I was testing it. I just found it again. Although, they're not the same presets, I think that the analog vibe is all there in Diva and the sound could be matched 100%.

www.anthonywebster.com/audio/tetra_strobe.mp3
www.anthonywebster.com/audio/diva_strobe.mp3

yul - Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:08 am

djanthonyw wrote:

Hey that's cool for a basic mono patch!

djanthonyw - Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:30 am

yul wrote:

djanthonyw wrote:

Hey that's cool for a basic mono patch!

Here's another example with a different patch from Diva.

www.anthonywebster.com/audio/diva_strobe_2.mp3

analoguesamples909 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:47 am

thanks for these examples.

with the tetra example I can hear that it has more high freq air even with the filter closed (which is interesting - given the DSI stuff is known for sounding a bit 'choked' compared to other analogue) and also it sounds more musical to my ears.

The diva examples are not bad (second is better) but there is a clear difference - whether you prefer one or the other is debatable and dependent on what you are looking for.

It probably should be mentioned that Diva and Tetra are quite different. Diva is an emulation of some classic analogue - but as Ive written elsewhere - for me it still sounds dull when the filter is closed, and the highs are a bit strident when it is open. It also has a firmness to the sound where I find analogue has more 'give'.

Tetra on the other hand is a modern CEM chip synth with DCO and digital envelopes, so its certainly not the last word representing analogue synthesis. Its fairly well documented that not all people who like analogue synthesis are bowled over by the DSI sound...

Its useful for the consumer to compare DSI stuff and DIva because they are not worlds apart in cost. Of course there are plenty of advantages to Diva. In reality - I think having both is good. Diva does an excellent Moog bass IMO and lots of sounds DSI stuff could not do. And it sits in your computer - how about that.

djanthonyw - Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:04 am

I think that your observations are pretty spot on. Overall I vastly prefer Diva since it can get very close, and with all the benefits of being a plugin. No regrets selling my analogs. Smile

analoguesamples909 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:31 am

djanthonyw wrote:

I think that your observations are pretty spot on. Overall I vastly prefer Diva since it can get very close, and with all the benefits of being a plugin. No regrets selling my analogs. Smile

fair enough. I would say tho - not to base your opinion on analogue synths on an experience with DSI stuff-which sometimes it seems how I read it where you have posted elsewhere. However I have to say - for they type of music I think you are into making (commercial electro house?) - it makes sense to go with Diva. There is the practical side - but I do also think now days the sound of digital synths is more appropriate for many modern styles. tbh if I were getting into most forms of House today Id probably just grab a virus ti and be done with it - but there are a few good plugins now that are on par if you program them well.
I suspect that is why some people did not get on with Diva - because it sounds close to vintage analogue - and the reality is vintage analogue is not always suitable for everything.

News From The Sky - Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:00 pm

Urs wrote:

I don't have a source, but in general Diva's knobs have a larger range...

analoguesamples909 wrote:

I have to admit I have not focussed on things like position of settings when comparing my Source - more the sound...

Thanks for the info, Urs and Mr. 909, that's very helpful. Definitely helps dampen my lust for a Sub Phatty...

Urs - Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:39 pm

In our observation, CEM based classics (Sequential stuff, late Obies) have more "fizzy" heights than e.g. stuff based on Roland OTAs, CA3080 or discrete ladders. Dunno about Mopho, but it's been apparent to me with the Matrix12. This may explain why the difference with Diva is bigger there than with the components she's actually modeled on. I can't see us working on this flavour anytime soon, but who knows? Maybe one day we'll check it out.

analoguesamples909 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:56 pm

Urs wrote:

Urs I have to judge my words carefully as I accept that I have not done intense research on the sound - just I have my ears - but seeing as we have the wonders of the t'internet I thought I might ask this. I was wondering what your thoughts were on the observation I have made on analogue synths (and also analogue EQ) vs digital emulations.

I find that a closed filter sounds slightly different in analogue hardware vs a digital version. I get a sense of 'air' and high freq from analogue synths even when the cutoff is low/closed. Conversely - most digital filters sound a bit muted to me in comparison. I can hear it in the simple tetra example above...although I accept it is a different synth.
I dont know if there is some resonance, dynamics or small saturation in the analogue filter when it is closed - that gives rise to it sounding different - but something seems to be going on. I think I have read others who have experience with analogue gear expressing this also...
It appears to be similar with digital EQ. The one plugin that I find does not suffer from this as much is Nebula - which is sampled and includes saturation and dynamics from analogue hardware...so maybe some of the clue is there?

hakey - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:03 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:

I get a sense of 'air' and high freq from analogue synths even when the cutoff is low/closed.

Noise floor?

Sendy - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:05 pm

hakey wrote:

analoguesamples909 wrote:

I get a sense of 'air' and high freq from analogue synths even when the cutoff is low/closed.

Noisefloor?

That was my initial thought. Definitely something after the filter/synth in any case. Noise is a funny thing, just a trace of it can do the damndest things sometimes.

Urs - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:21 pm

Well, try running Diva out of your machine and back into it through the same mixer as your Mopho.

Also... yeah, Sascha is currently working on that magic noisefloor thing. Not necessarily as a part of Diva, but certainly something that'll help evaluating the phenomenon.

I can only say that we perceived Diva as more crisp and "open" sounding than our reference hardware. We used the cleanest possible setups. You'll find similar comments elsewhere, e.g. Gearslutz, where we discussed the option of adding a "muffle" effect to Diva to take those extra heights out. In all of our taste, we tweaked Diva until she did what the reference synths do, plus a tiny tad of "extra" that we liked more.

analoguesamples909 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:56 pm

Urs wrote:

ah. Yes noisefloor could be part of it. However Im not sure if it is all - because for example Nebula programs do not contain noise info as far as I can understand it-and they sculpt the sound in a very similar way to real analogue. I do think there is some dynamic or saturated element to it...but thats cool sacha is involved. He is someone held in great esteem. I'll not easily forget the moment where Slate challenged anyone to beat his FG-X in a loudness/punch scenario - and sacha pops up with an example of Ammunition. Enough said.
But cool - you think there is something to it as a phenomenon...I live in hope that small bits of feedback might in the end lead to tweaks along the way to perfection.

I agree there is a crisp clean element to Diva sound - and ironically considering my filter comments - I was one of the people lobbying for the muffle parameter. However for me that was in reference to the Oscilators which I do feel are quite strident in the high end - although I am thankful they have a brightness that is comparable to real analogue Osc. I do feel it could be something to do with the dynamic variation over time of analogue Osc that might cause them to sound less 'hard' in the high end - even if for a given snapshot the hf content between Diva model and an analogue model is very similar....

the tetra examples arent mine...but I have been considering running Diva thru a preamp and compressor to shape it in the analogue realm a bit...

pdxindy - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:58 pm

hakey wrote:

analoguesamples909 wrote:

I get a sense of 'air' and high freq from analogue synths even when the cutoff is low/closed.

Noise floor?

a tiny bit of noise has so much effect...

pdxindy - Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:26 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:

I agree there is a crisp clean element to Diva sound - and ironically considering my filter comments - I was one of the people lobbying for the muffle parameter. However for me that was in reference to the Oscilators which I do feel are quite strident in the high end - although I am thankful they have a brightness that is comparable to real analogue Osc. I do feel it could be something to do with the dynamic variation over time of analogue Osc that might cause them to sound less 'hard' in the high end - even if for a given snapshot the hf content between Diva model and an analogue model is very similar....

Out of curiosity, what samplerate do you render Diva at?

Because Bazille has multiple simultaneous filter outputs, I sometimes take the Lowpass as main sound and then add in a teeny amount of the BP output plus a teeny amount of noise...

pdxindy - Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:57 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:

I do feel it could be something to do with the dynamic variation over time of analogue Osc that might cause them to sound less 'hard' in the high end - even if for a given snapshot the hf content between Diva model and an analogue model is very similar....

Bazille sounds sweeter to me in the highs... I think in the highs the audio rate modulation creates a cleaner sound... less harshness or hardness even though it might be very crisp...

http://draigathar.org/sounds/Bazille58a.mp3

This sound does not use the LP filter... just BP (twice) and it has FM and some resonance which adds the bit of edge... but even so it is quite clean even on the higher notes...

analoguesamples909 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:18 pm

pdxindy wrote:

analoguesamples909 wrote:

I dont render it really just play - tried it at various rates...interesting tactic with bazille...

pdxindy wrote:

analoguesamples909 wrote:

cool sound - but clean and quite VA sounding. Im interested in the very close analogue emulation issue...

pdxindy - Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:39 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:

cool sound - but clean and quite VA sounding. Im interested in the very close analogue emulation issue...

yeah... of course Bazille is not an analog emulation... I'm discussing the same issue as you and using Bazille to make a point which I think is pertinent

analoguesamples909 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:50 pm

pdxindy wrote:

analoguesamples909 wrote:

cool sound - but clean and quite VA sounding. Im interested in the very close analogue emulation issue...

yeah... of course Bazille is not an analog emulation... I'm discussing the same issue as you and using Bazille to make a point which I think is pertinent

ok - I see what you mean. Im making a specific point about the difference in analogue high end and Diva high end. If Bazille has a sweeter high end it might be due to a different hf content-but I doubt Bazille has some specific analogue modelling that Diva does not have. Im saying with Diva Osc - it has a very similar hf content to modelled instruments - but the presentation in time is a bit static which gives a more hard feel to it compared to the analogue presentation...it is just a theory...but it makes sense given that short snapshots of Diva recorded sound very similar to the analogue counterpart. However feel and playback over time of Diva is a bit more static sounding. I think our ears are more used to subtle variation in sound as opposed to more linear representation as offered by the digital domain. Thus we experience variation as less harsh, more musical and 'organic'. Like I say 'a theory'... HiHi

There are 47 posts in this topic.