KVR :: View topic - will / is full automatic PDC available in MuLab 5 ?

KVR :: MUTOOLS » will / is full automatic PDC available in MuLab 5 ? [View Original Topic]
There are 24 posts in this topic.

clipnotic - Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:48 am

Hello,

my english is not very good but I try as good as I can! Smile

I'm working with Fruity Loops / FL Studio since 10 years and I'm thinking it's time to try another DAW, too. So, I found MuLab and it looks very good and it seems, that it has a good workflow.

But for me the main thing of a DAW is "FULL Automatic PDC".

One of the reasons I want to quit working with FL Studio 10 is that the automatic PDC feature there still is not really optimal. And that's the same with Ableton, too.

I'm not a live musician but rather a producer and I'm using many VSTs (synths, dynamic effects and other effects) and some hardware synthesizers, too, in my song projects.

Manually PDC in projects like that, is useless and horrible in every DAW! I know and understand how manually PDC is working and how I can gauge the latency but if I use many automations and fx chains in a song ... it's a disaster to fix all that accumulating latency problems again and again. That's a workflow killer!

So, I'm searching for a DAW which is automatically "tight" no matter how many plugins and automations I'm using in a song project!

Is or will that be possible with MuLab?

Thank you for answer!

mutools - Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:05 am

APDC is not yet supported and i also have no estimation on when it will be implemented. There are many items on the wishlist and many other challenges out there (RE, tablets, mobiles, networking,...) Relatively soon i'll start some deep thinking on what steps to take next.

clipnotic - Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:12 am

mutools wrote:

Thank you very much for fast answer! Your support is good!

But that's really a pity! Sad

For me a good allround latency is a very important DAW basic feature!? Mobile working, networking, tablets are things which of course can be funny, but the main function of a DAW should be to create good and tight music or? Smile

Please, don't get me wrong! MuLab is a very nice DAW project so I don't want criticize! If I would have to choose between Ableton or MuLab, I would take MuLab!

But with both of that DAWs and FL Studio, too, it seems, that really professional working is not possible? Sad

Crackbaby - Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:33 am

I'd love APDC Smile

mutools - Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:33 am

To avoid confusion: APDC is one of those many items on the wishlist. I understand the need for APDC if you're using plugs with a process delay like FFT based plugins or certain dynamic processors etc. Now as a small indie developer i must also see what's most profitable. Not said based on greed but based on survival!! The tablet market is booming and at the same time it has a very interesting musical aspect too imho. Having musical fun and being creative on a train, on the beach, in the garden, it's simply a very popular and interesting thing. Just telling you this so to broaden the context. I did not yet decide anything yet, i'll start some deep thinking relatively soon.

Satch1 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:46 am

I have been thinking of buying MuLab for a few weeks now. The only thing that keeps stopping me is the lack of APDC. I really hope you decide to implement it Jo, because there's so much to like about MuLab. It's got most things I want from a DAW, except one of the most important. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do anyway Jo Wink

clipnotic - Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:49 am

mutools wrote:

Of course, you are right! I use a tablet, too, to draw automation curves with my fingers ... it's a very nice feature! Very Happy

But a good APDC Feature is very profitable and popular, too! For Example, look here in the ableton forum what users there are thinking about Live 9 without APDC: (EDIT: 59 pages with criticism about that!)

https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884

I think there are two main features which the most DAW users are want:

- good workflow (MuLab has a good workflow!)
- tight feeling (a good APDC)

So, if MuLab will get a really tight overall feeling with a good APDC, then it's all around very popular!! More and more musicians have trained their ears and meanwhile they hear / notice the real latency problems! Very Happy

mutools - Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:58 am

And what about REX, SFZ, timestretching, FM & wavetables in MUX, step sequencing, parallel editing of multiple parts, freezing, completly customizable MUX front panels including meters, buttons, sliders etc, loop composer, more standard audio recording, window docking, support for live DJing (Live MuClips), etc... etc... Just naming a few of the big ones. There are some many wishes...

Crackbaby - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:09 am

Clone yourself! Very Happy

All those things you mention are very nice.. Smile

Glad i don't have to make those decisions. Sounds like you got Mulab 6,7,8 and 9 covered Laughing

clipnotic - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:13 am

mutools wrote:

Of course, there are always many wishes from user with every DAW.

I think it has to do with a good priority system:

For example, if I use REX files but my DAW has no APDC, I have to fiddle endless around to get the latency fix if I use a huge FX chain on them ... The same with SFZ.

Timestretching of course is a very important feature!

FM and wavetables are features which are still available in many VSTs, free or commercial. So there are many possibilities to bridge the time till that things are available in MUX, too.

Step sequencing is very important, too!

Editing of multible parts can improve the workflow good but it's still good to edit in MuLab or? I know Bitwig touts about that feature ... but that DAW is still not available! Smile

...

All of that wishes are good and interesting ... but a Song MUST be tight because if it's not tight all the other features are useless! Very Happy

Satch1 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:17 am

mutools wrote:

yes all very nice things to add, but for me not as important as APDC. A lot of these things I can already achieve with plugins, without breaking workflow.

plutonia - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:22 am

is plug in delay really a problem? i've had complex arrangements in loadsa diff songs and sequencers and never had issues

clipnotic - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:33 am

plutonia wrote:

is plug in delay really a problem? i've had complex arrangements in loadsa diff songs and sequencers and never had issues

It's a very big problem! OK, sometimes it depends on the music style, too.

But independently a really good tightness is the heart of a good song!

I have an very old hardware sequencer and as I got that machine it was the first time my ears checked that something goes wrong in my FL Studio DAW ...

So, train your ears! Very Happy

Satch1 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:43 am

plutonia wrote:

is plug in delay really a problem? i've had complex arrangements in loadsa diff songs and sequencers and never had issues

It depends how often you use delay inducing plugins, I suppose. Of course there are a lot of plugins that have zero latency, so it's entirely possible to create complex arrangements without a problem. But there are quite a few that I like to use that have latency, like UAD plugs, and linear phase EQ. Also things like real time pitch shifters. APDC makes experimentation with these types of plugs much more fluid. Wink

clipnotic - Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:48 am

In Ableton for example it seems to be, that automation curves can't be fixed with manually PDC, I only read that and don't know it! ... so if you have to fix some effects, your automation curves of that channel / sound are out of sync. And that means your work was useless!

plutonia - Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:14 am

never noticed this and have used so much gear and software from cubase on atari's onwards and have never had problems. had various drum machines and hardware sequencers too (yamaha rmix for instance) and didn't feel there was a difference in timing etc. can anyone post a mulab song where plug in delay is noticeable?

> DiGiT < - Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:29 am

i would tend to agree that this could be on the higher side of important since after youre done creating your music, nobody is looking at the nifty features the program you used to make the music has... they are only listening to the result and this directly impacts the result. of course if its a major pain to code in there then nvrmnd Razz

dakkra - Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:40 am

As long as there is a way to turn it on and off I would be happy to have it. My main dislike about PDC in general is that if you have a rather laggy plugin it compensates by delaying the whole setup. I don't like having my setup delayed. If anything I will find a work around to get the same sound without dealing with the delay of a plugin (MUX FTW!). Granted missing things in the MUX get in the way but then we load SIMPLE yet useful plugins to fix the holes in the MUX. As Jo said those things will (hopefully) be added into the MUX and then we won't have a very big use for external plugins.

Just my two cents on this matter Very Happy

> DiGiT < - Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:04 am

indeed another way to look at it

pljones - Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:46 am

You have to be able to turn off PDC when playing live -- although, in this situation, you really want to be bypassing any delay-inducing plug-ins in your signal path, so that's another way of looking at it and also another feature a PDC implementation could deliver.

I'm in the position where I generally avoid delay-bearing plug-ins because I work so much from playing live. If I could have a set up where there was Auto-PDC when I'm arranging and an easy "Bypass Delaying Plug-ins" mode when I'm recording or just playing, that would be a really good feature.

If we get another poll for features in the next major release, I think this might get my vote. With multi-core now present, it's probably all I'm missing. (I don't remember what I said last time!! HiHi

)

Although, as dakkra says... replacing those delaying plugins with MuX presets is definitely an option... I must spend more time learning the tools! Smile

sl23 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:04 am

mutools wrote:

There are many items on the wishlist and many other challenges out there (RE, tablets, mobiles, networking,...)

Are you planning on making MuLab work with touchscreens eventually? That'd be friggin pure awesomeness!!!

DHR53 - Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:04 pm

I know I'm not pro because I've never even noticed it... Smile

clipnotic - Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:15 pm

pljones wrote:

)

Although, as dakkra says... replacing those delaying plugins with MuX presets is definitely an option... I must spend more time learning the tools! Smile

Yes, an On / Off Feature für APDC is a good idea! With that, live and studio musicians would be happy! And a live musician has to produce its setup beforehand, too.

But replacing delaying plugins with MUX presets ... I think that's not always a good solution!? I have and use many 3rd party plugins like Omnisphere, Trilian, East West, Curve, Surge, Sylenth, Vanguard, Tal Uno ... and dynamic plugins from Flux and others and many many FX and midi VSTs, too. For them over the years I programmed many own presets, banks with many midi chords and progression basics ... that was really a hard work because I did that all from scratch and I didn't use presets!

So switching to and learning another DAW is OK but starting 100% from scratch, that I would never do again because I'm still some years older now, too! I don't want to create my next album if I'm a grandpa ... Very Happy

dakkra - Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:30 pm

That all makes sense of course. As I said it's what what I generally do. I use Synthmaster frequently throughout my tracks as well as many different effects. I think it's perfectly fine to use external VSTs. As I also said before, as long as I can turn it on and off I'm happy to have it.

There are 24 posts in this topic.