KVR :: Everything Else (Music related) » Help, I'm a trance nerd in need of serious advice! [View Original Topic]
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gapaga - Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:19 pm

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Hi guys, I've been making tracks for close to 5 years now and my style has gotten really good(well, at least I think so), but when it comes to mixing/mastering, I need some serious advice. I currently use VST synths, FL studio and a myriad of decent plugins. But I keep running into technical mastering/mixing problems. Is there someone who can explain how to make mix that won't sound horrible on my friend's monitors? Should I get monitors? I was thinking about a getting a low budget mixer and a sound card that outputs different tracks, slam on some near field monitors. I know I should probably invest in a keyboard and a fat rack, but I got a system will a crapload of ram and some serious cpu juice. Plus, I can't afford to deck out a mini studio, too much money for a recent college grad. What are your basic mixing techniques, is there a book that explains using FL plugins properly? Or mixing electronic music in general?

What I'm trying to do is eliminate all static and keep levels from peaking red. I use compressors on some of my fatter synths to keep them from chopping the red, but when I playback on a system with monitors, it sounds like a whinny horse with all this crap I can't even hear on my own system.

Check out 2 of my tracks and tell me if I'm a hopeless case.

http://music.download.com/gapaga/3600-8263-100120574.html

I feel like I'm close, but it's these technical details that bite me in the ace. Is it possible to mix quality pro stuff with FL studio? Someone told me the software rendering of sounds makes it weaker compared to real hardware. Does anyone have samples they made with Fruity for some inspiration?

Thanks a bunch,

Best,

Gabe
[A S M]
http://www.aliensoundmachine.com

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pHz - Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:15 pm

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(moved from instruments to everything else)

slainte rob

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Sicklecell666 - Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:36 pm

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Why is there like 3 identical posts from this guy?

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pHz - Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:39 pm

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there isnt (any more) ...

slainte rob

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futz - Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:53 pm

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This might be helpful. The whole guide is good.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/mixing_in_the_sequencer.htm

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no_signal - Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:41 am

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When you don't like the way your mix sounds, set every volume slider to -oo, and all your eq's to 0 dB. Than go out for a smoke to calm down your ears.
Start with the kick and the bass (I say it's the mous important thing). Set a level of -6dB or so for the kick and the bass as they need to me the louder part of the music (ear is less sensitive to low frequencies). Add a compressor too (but keep the level down to have a headroom for other instruments). Sometimes i cut out very low frequencies with the eq, because they are useless and eat up the headroom.
It's important to eq the kick and bass to sound good. My advice is to add one instrument at a time and tweak the sound to sound the best. Eq each instrument separately using good monitors and a spectrum analyzer.
You can add reverb send effect but cut out freq < 1000 Hz because you don't want a reverb on the kick/bass right ?
Actually it's a lot of work and a lot of things to say. I'll let others to negate what i sayed.

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no_signal - Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:52 am

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Rock Hardbuns - Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:04 am

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Monitoring is crucial. Since good monitors are really expensive, the best way (according to me anyway) is to have: A) large-ish hi quality hifi speakers B) cheap nearfields and C) headphones and to continually alternate between them while mixing.

Also test the track with some really crap speakers, like computer speakers or a small radio.

You can make a pair a nearfield monitors pretty cheaply by getting a pair of koaxial car speakers and mounting them in a box.

Good quality large hifi speakers can be found for surprisningly little money if you look at auctions and stuff. You can find stuff that cost a fortune in the early 80's.

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Alvarez - Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:03 am

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ummm. lots of stuff to cover:

BTW, can't listen to audio track as am at work, sorry, will do later, but here we go with advice for what it's worth:

1. Get some monitors. Anything half decent would do. Active better if you can afford it. You don't need to buy anything else, as you don't really need a mixer or mutliple out soundcard as you can mix everything from inside fruityloops.

2. What the ? is 'static' on your mix? - maybe it's distortion, in which case - you should turn every track down. Do this before you add any compression

3. The software rendering of sound will be a bit different from hardware as the hardware will put its own character in, but it doesn't stop you from doing pro mixes. People can do pro sounding mixes on any bit of software or hardware.

4. There are so many tips on mixing that it's too much to go into here. (I see there is a link to some tips in another reply anyway). For a bit of general advice though, make sure every part of your track has it's own space in the mix, especially in the bass area, otherwise it will sound muddy.

5. As you probably know, if you create a track and set it's level at 0db, then create another one also at 0db you will have an overal mix that is louder than 0db and will therefore be distorted / clipping. Keep your levels under control before you add a compressor.

6. Once you have your mix sorted, you can bump up the overall level and feel of the tracks by adding a good quality compressor / limiter as an insert over the main mix. I use UAD-1s Pultec EQ and Fairchild Compressor which sounds great (though not sure if it can be used in FL) but if you want a purely software alternative, you could use something like Waves UltraMaximizer or T-racks or PSP Vintage Warmer (which is prob the cheapest)

Hope this helps.

www.djalvarez.com

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?songs=52717&T=1140

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VicDiesel - Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:40 am

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Advice #1: Trance is so 90s. Move on already.

Advice #2: yes, buy monitors.

Ok, so I'm listening on pretty simple headphones (I'm at work), and I don't like the sound of the drums on the first track. Not very smooth. In fact they sound phased or flanged. Is that conscious? Also, your pads seem to fill too much of the spectrum. Maybe whatever you're monitoring on sounds a bit thin so you miss how much energy you're throwing into the mix?

V.

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nmarrone - Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:17 am

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Since you say that you can hear all sorts of things on your friend's monitors that you can not on your own computer speakers, that leads me to believe that...

YOU NEED YOUR OWN MONITORS!

That would be the first thing. There have been some great tips so far on this page. Some more important things to note:

. Mixing is an additive process. That means adding more tracks will make your mix louder and it will eventually distort.

. Learn how to use an eq properly. For the most part, you should be cutting frequency with an eq, not adding. This can help more different sounds fit in the mix better as they are not taking up the same frequency range.

. Learn to use the compressor properly. The compressor can be used either on single tracks or on the entire mix.

Good luck.

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wrench45us - Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:02 am

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one thing to add is the free tool Inspector can be very useful on the master out to check clips, peaks and rms levels and general spectrum mix

works well as a learning tool with selected tracks solo'd, muted, diabled/enabled as well to be able to 'see' what happens when eq is applied and instruments overlap and all that

but I agree in general it's more important to hear it so, some adequate set of speakers/headphones combination is essential.

I was incredibly disappointed when I heard my first mix come through my sound system, but about a dozen iterations later with advice from this forum, and using Inspector and a few choice tools, and I'm fairly happy with what I get now.

and yes I'm certain on ecan get good results using FLStudio. It's not th ehost, it's the user and the mix and the mastering tools.

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xander - Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:32 am

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Agreed. Bad monitors = bad sound.

H O W E V E R - having said that, I have used these on the fly (in hotel rooms at 03:00am) and they work incredibly well - especially if you can't afford decent loudspeakers:

Shure E2 'In-Ear' Phones

But eventually you need to get some good speakers. This way, you play the tunes to your friends - if you see various parts of their anatomy begin to gyrate along with the beat, you got it dicked... maybe...

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no_signal - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:06 pm

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I Don't think so! I like trance music because the way it sounds, not because someone else likes it. I like to listen sometimes to the Armin Van Buuren 3-4 year old mixes. And "Boundries of Imagination" is better than any mix i can hear today...
Btw, did i mention I hate house music ? No ? I thought so...
And today's dance tracks are crap.

So what better harder-melodic music style do you suggest ?

Please don't feel offended man, nothing personal!

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nuffink - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:11 pm

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No. You didn't have to.

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no_signal - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:21 pm

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OK. Don't want to make a war or something Just keep talking about the subject instead insinuating something is bad, or oldfashioned.

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nuffink - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:22 pm

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I'm more than happy to have a war.

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no_signal - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:26 pm

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Not here!
Not now!
Not with me...

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snooky - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:35 pm

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Proghouse is da bomb!!!1

there, I said it so a trance dude could understand
Btw...why the applause in your track Mr.Ti??

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no_signal - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:40 pm

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What would you ask otherwise ?
To add some human presence to the track.
I think it's time to remove that link...

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snooky - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:50 pm

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well, I think that it sounds stupid with samples of ppl applauding and chanting...well, if you´re a Scooter wannabe maybe!?

If it were a live act then some "human feel" would be cool...but not on a studio project.

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nuffink - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:51 pm

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Fair enough.

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no_signal - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:54 pm

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Gotta write that down
Laters...

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snooky - Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:56 pm

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you do that...I always enjoy giving tips to newbie trance kids and popsies.

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no_signal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:33 am

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Actually it wasn't a studio project
If you haven't recognize it, it's a remix of Paul van Dyk track. And I wanted to make it as close as possible to the original, which was a "live act" at love parade.
Please don't tell me how to make my music, ok ?

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no_signal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:39 am

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I make trance music since '98 (that's 6 years now) so :
1. I'm definitely not a "newbie trance kids and popsies"
2. I think I have read about and study the state of trance (starting from indian culture) mouch more than any prog house guy giving me *lessons*.

I give you an advice :
Don't be arrogant, coz you only make a foul of yourself.

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Kriminal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:47 am

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Now now, whats going on here?

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no_signal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:06 am

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Hi Krimi! You're boring.
Go back to your corner ! Unless you want to close all the threads @ k-v-r

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gapaga - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:21 am

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I pasted the text from everyone's advice, big thanks goes out to everybody, especially TranceInstitute. As to the db level, that's gotta be what's doing it for mixes. I tweaked a couple of tracks and put on compressors, *big slap on my face*, now the overall db levels are 0, which is great, no clipping. I'm just starting to get into using a spectrum analyzer to try to even out the lows, mids and his, to get a nice overall sound. I'm still pretty pissy with the eq in fruity. Does anyone here have any EQ recommendations? I heard Waves Native Gold is supposed to be solid. Any eq tutorials? Heheh....God, I should take a audio mixing class or something...

Best,

Gabe
"The Trance Nerd"

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Kriminal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:28 am

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Thanks

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spaceman - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:36 am

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I know where this one is going

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Kriminal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:38 am

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No, thats it from me today


Move along now, nothing to see here.

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no_signal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:13 am

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You cheater!!!!!!!
I never wrote souch thing! Maby fanatic ???

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:46 am

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If you thought I was serious then LOL! at you!

However, anyone making trance are at a newbie level imo...perhaps not technically, but mentally...It takes a sofisticated mind to break out of robotic basslines and snare rolls and that extremely tiresome filtersweep lead

Belive me, I have been making music seriously for seven(7) years and my interest for electronic composition started at the age of 9 (!)

So, I too once enjoyed the sound of trance, but I eventually grew up and started to explore the finer things in life! I hope that you soon will do the same!

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naz747 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:06 am

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Belive me, I have been making music seriously for seven(7) years and my interest for electronic composition started at the age of 9 (!)[/quote]

Doesn't mean that you're any good though does it, just that you been doing it a while.

However, anyone making trance are at a newbie level imo...perhaps not technically, but mentally...It takes a sofisticated mind to break out of robotic basslines and snare rolls and that extremely tiresome filtersweep lead[/quote]


Just listened to 'Cool People', nice track. Hardly the most technical track is it though, I think making a decent trance track invloves a lot more than nice percussion, a bassline, couple of synth parts, strings and some fx. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against minimal and I do really like Prog House but it hardly takes a sophisticated mind to write!!

I hope you're not one of those sophisticated 'Cool People' that stand at the back and don't dance in case they sweaty and their hair gets messed up.


Peace Out

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nuffink - Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:11 am

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Nobody dances to trance. They do what people have always done to a 2/4 beat. They march.

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naz747 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:20 am

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Dancing is a free form exercise.

Doesn't matter whether you're marching or on you're hands and knees shaking your head, if you're doing it to music you're dancing. Mods pogo!! Is jumping up and down on the spot dancing? Of course it is. (Try telling a Mod it isn't )

Each to their own, eh.

BTW I don't march to trance, I dance.


What rocks your boat then Nuffink?

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SecondSkin - Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:11 am

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Why does every thread with Trance in the title have to end up like this? It's not my favorite genre either, but everything can be a legit form of expression as far as I am concerned. Someday someone may even top "Superstring" and "Two Full Moons and a Trout".

Personally, I want to apologize to Gapaga for where this has headed. Unlike alot of KVR newbies (who post a track or two and are never heard from again), Gapaga has been involved in this thread and seems to be actively seeking help. I think he at least got the message by now (your levels are simply too high). He has also posted on another subject offering his services in designing album covers.

Definitely not our typical 1 post and run....

Welcome Gabe!

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nuffink - Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:24 am

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Who knows.
I like to think that it's a genuine attempt by the forum to steer newbies away from the most vacuous sub sub sub sub sub genre of music imaginable.
But it's probably just cos we like taking the piss.

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CypherOne - Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:29 am

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because it's a music site?

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:12 am

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hahahh....well, psytrance is a different thing though...hope you like to jump!

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:13 am

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double post

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:14 am

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.......double post

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:20 am

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Well, for the record...I LOVE TO DANCE!

as long as there is a good beat and nice girls on the dance floor, I´m on it!

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ericj23 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:22 am

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you shit stirring eveil minded scum sucking liar

its a triple post

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:23 am

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well sooory!!!

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Sicklecell666 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:28 am

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LOL.

hey, hold up a sec..lemme go get some popcorn..

Whenever i was listening to Trance I was usually in a corner drooling on myself suffering from the synergistic effect of way to many pharmecutical cocktails

Good stuff that (the drugs, not the trance)

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:31 am

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well, you aint gettin´ a fight out of me...

All I´m saying is that run o´ the mill trance is for RETARDED IDIOTS WHO THINKS THAT BY MAKING A PISS POOR TRACK IN FL STUDIO WILL MAKE THEM SOME NEW FRIENDS AND PERHAPS SOME FAME.

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Sicklecell666 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:42 am

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I wasn't trollin Mindless, I was just having a useless reaction to this endless grinding Trance discussion spreading across multiple threads for the last few months.

PPl seeking to make this kind of very specialized music out of a vacuum remind me of the kids at school that thought if they slept with a book under the pillow they'de wake up enlightened.

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:45 am

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...

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SecondSkin - Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:12 am

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No, Epic Vocal Trance is a vacuous sub sub sub genre. Trance itself is no more vacuous than anything else that can be considered "pop".

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nuffink - Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:33 am

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Apologies. I relegated it one sub genre too far.

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donkey tugger - Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:39 am

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You are the shoemaker!

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Rabid - Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:52 am

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The only problem with Trance is that a lot of it seems to be made by people who have never had a music lesson or never learned to play an instrument. Trance is not bad. Trance created by people who only know how to use pre-programmed rhythms and arpeggios sucks. But this is no different than rock from the 60’s or rap from the 80’s. When something sells music companies begin to promote every artist, ummm, person they can find to work with that style. It is hard to find decent trance when 98 out of 100 songs are void of any musical substance. Some people think trance is supposed to be simple and mindless, but people used to thing that rock music was “supposed” to only have three chords.

Robert

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:57 am

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http://www.ebaumsworld.com/dingdingdong.html

this is probably 5 sub genres below that chart....

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normal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:02 am

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i love the little bob-and-weave head thingy ...

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Kriminal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:03 am

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Euro House anyone?

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nuffink - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:06 am

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Oh go on then. Since you insist.

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Eric Bourne - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:33 am

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Grrr... trance is all about having fun, getting sweaty, and dancing, and I dig it, except when it's no good, and then it sucks...

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:37 am

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you know, there are other ways to achive that.

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Kriminal - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:41 am

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WRESTLING

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Eric Bourne - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:41 am

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No, no... that comes after the dancing.

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oblagon - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:32 am

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trance may be dumb but house is extra dumb

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:40 am

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Now that´s a smart comment...You win Sir...amazing argument!

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oblagon - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:41 am

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i know. i have these flashes of genius from time to time.

it's as good argument as any other here

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hjack - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:42 am

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God ,Oh why

why do you guys , ages above us , are so tough ... i am sentimental hurted now
get back to your future era , and let us grow normally , i can get a trauma of this ... i feel i´ll go now to throw all my trance collection out the window , because trance doesn´t worths

... i do own a trance collection ( and that isn´t ANY trance collection , but one based on real classics ), of wich i´ve once been proud



( beat yourself ... of jealous AH AH )

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VitaminD - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:45 am

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agreed.

----------------------------------------

I feel one becomes musically stronger when they embrace all forms of music.. and attempt to learn something from them.

I like to listen to many forms of 'music' (including trance) but would never say 'oh genre ______ is complete crap.' I think claiming superiority over another (especially for the music they write) is silly and pointless.

Saying, '______ (insert musical genre you dispise) is garbage' is an opinion.. and we know (from offtopic) how that goes..

so for instance.. if trance (rock, jazz, ambient, house, soul, bluegrass, pop, etc) is complete garbage.. prove it. But first prove a factual set of rules for defining what is good and what is bad though...

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:50 am

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I have to add ONE thing though...when I badmouth "trance" I talk about the manufactured, majorlabel "crap" that is constanly forced upon us.

The real deal (not someone who just spent 45 mins in FL studio) is mostly good and, when you discover the sub genres (psy trance, prog trance) it becomes pleasurable to listen to again.

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Eric Bourne - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:53 am

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Which artists produce this major label "crap?"

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nuffink - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:54 am

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Yeah true. But it is shite though.

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:57 am

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http://www.galaxee.no/shoe.ram
ppl like this dude and a lot of other similar to him..also Scooter, Warp Brothers, and all that crap you find on the annual "Ibiza" "Clubbers Guide" Cd:s

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gapaga - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:59 am

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Haha, I leave this bulltin post alone for a couple days and it turns into a circus. Why don't the trance haters go bury their heads into their own music and the true purist lovers stay here to continue the conversation. Geesh! I don't understand why people who hate trance so much even waste their breath to complain about it to amateur producers here. Do you think it's really going to matter. Do you think it's really going to stop us from doing what we do? Go harass Tiesto or Corsten, so they make rock music instead. Which I do is say, is highly doubtful. Haha. Nothing but good laughs here....

Gabe.

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:01 am

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ever heard of Gunther:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/dingdingdong.html

THIS is why ppl hate "trance"

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nuffink - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:02 am

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That's the spirit.

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oblagon - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:12 am

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haha,wow. that's not trance though. that's euro dance for feeble minded females.

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hjack - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:12 am

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<the loudest scream you can imagine , laughing ofcourse>
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

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gapaga - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:15 am

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No people, u can't let the actions of one sexually repressed trance fool, make the rest of us look like gimps. There are purists out there, besides that was euro-dance, which is pretty whack as is. You need to listen to Corsten, Armin, and etc.

Gabe

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:16 am

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there there...calm down now...have an aspirin

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hjack - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:24 am

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ok i think i´m ok now ....

... no , i´m not

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

how cant you guys find any of interest on this ?

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Rabid - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:30 am

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Trance, Eruo Dance, Chicago House, D&B. I’m afraid that someday I will mix my genres, label someone wrong, and spend three evenings in a sensitivity class.

Robert

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hjack - Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:44 am

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ok i´ve threw my collection out the window ...
now , " i´m in need of serious advice " , what should i start listening ? ... Mindless , for example !

... that´s crap , you don´t need to tell me what !

no heartfeelings , please !
i´m shure you haters of ... whatever ... will have your Q of brilliant , gifted and enghlitened , as we do ( lol ) ... please post more links on " why ppl hate "trance" " , please !

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:56 pm

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I´m trying to figure out what your on about in this post but my braincells fail me...
Do you hate my music? or do you hate your trance collection??
explain please!

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hjack - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:20 pm

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COTE
" Do you hate my music? "

hey mindless ... great to hear your tracks , you have a friend now from here , still just "CoolPeople" ... about my trance collection ... you don´t want to hear it , because than you´d change your idea about trance ( as we still insist of using this term ! ) ... it is obvious that my concept of trance isn´t the same of yours or gapaga or even tranceinstitute or whoever , blessed those who can´t distinguish the different variants ... or those who can call ... for example Herbie Hancock ... their favourite trance =)
no heartfeelings ?
and nice tracks

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Mighty_Hero - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:23 pm

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*sighs* ok it needs to be done here I think.


This place I swear sometimes.

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:28 pm

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OK, you seem like such a nice fella so, I have to be honest with you...I do know alot about the trance scene and I was once a part of it...many of my old friends were producing trance and so were I.
But, when the sound became overexposed to silly proportions (commersial shite and daytime airplay)
I just wanted to get away from it all!

He, my love for tech/prog house and breaks came from the "Gods Kitchen" CDs anyways...so it wasn´t a instant change.

edit: and have you actually met someone who said that Herbie Hancock is trance

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hjack - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:47 pm

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"and have you actually met someone who said that Herbie Hancock is trance "
hmmm ... no , i don´t think so !
... no resentment , than

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gapaga - Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:47 pm

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Not to be shrewd, but while everyone who hates trance is getting their panties wet in this all out genre war, need I remind all of us what the original post is about: Trance producers, share your production techniques and setup specs. Thank you, now for all the haters, don't you guys have a daytime job to go back to? Why are you wasting your time harassing us? Just let us be, geesh, there's enough room for your music in the world too. Thank you!

Best,

Gabe
(scratching head bewildered by the transformation of his original post...)

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:50 pm

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double post

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:51 pm

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nope, we´re cool, if that´s what your talking about

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snooky - Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:53 pm

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It´always turns out like this I´m afraid...a thread rarley stays on topic

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naz747 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:00 pm

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I hear what your saying because nearly all that is cheesy garbarge IMO but you need to have music such as this as it is a gateway for kids into electronic music. Without it they would just listen to Busted then get into Slipknot and Marilyn Manson. These guys could be the newbies that buy the software, lining the pocket of the developers so that we can have improved apps & synths.

Anyway, what else are pissed up revellers gonna dance to in the local Ritzy's nightclub on a Saturday night?

At the end of the day there is a market for this kind of music, someone needs to produce it to meet demands.

Whose are the dumb f**ks really? Us, trying to be sophicated and underground? Or Scooter, making pap records then driving back to their swanky pad in their Ferrari?

I agree with VitD, no genre can be classed as crap. I can't say D&B is crap because it's just chopped up snares and a hoover noise (not trying to start another war, just generalising ) or Country & Western is crap because it all sounds the same!!

The only kind of music that can be described as crap is one that absolutely nobody listens to...and seeing as people have listened to 4'33 of silence that doesn't leave much.

Gapaga, hope you something of use out of all this!


Peace Out

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tee boy - Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:02 pm

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I dont think there is a problem with trance as a concept, I mean it started out just fine. Its just a pity that it has gone the way it has, cuz the majority of the Tiesto influenced shit that polutes the airwaves just now is pish. If you dig a little though there is still good trance around, usually mixed with a fair dose of prog or techno. Maybe when the commerical jokers have had their fill we might be treated to the more tasteful side of trance again?

Anyways, with regard to trance production! JP8080, Nord lead, Access Virus etc are the synths to own. I know this is a vst forum and all, but i think these do the job best. Infact, I'd have a Virus or a JP over a whole folder full of plugs (for this purpose at least). Im not saying this because they make all the cliche sounds, Im saying it because they are fantastic instruments with such quality and versitility which i feel is yet to be matched in native vst land. My advice is check out Virus Powercore, you wont be disappointed. Albino, Vanguard and Z3ta will do the job, but IMO they arent as good for the task in hand. I guess its down to opinion though, so try out the demo's?

Drumwise, you shouldnt need to stray to far away from a straight 909 kit. The hats, ride and clap are still used in pretty much every trance release. Maybe layer a sampled kick on top of the 909 and you're in business. Add percussion ie, shakers, bongo's and tribal type loops to taste.

Mixing wise, trance tends to be very reverby so I'd spend some time on programming some good patches for your chosen plug. This is probably the most difficult side of mixing trance imo so it pays to get it right. Also, delays play a huge part. If you listen to tracks by people like Derk from 'Push', he uses an obscene amount of delay on everything from his lead synth arpeggio's to bass lines.

Then there is the more sophisticated side of trance, which to be fair you hear more of in the prog house stuff. This involves all the subtle textures, fx and general trickery which can be incorporated into tracks. If you listen to stuff by BT, then Im sure you'll know the sort of thing im talking about. Whether you're into this sort of stuff or not, I think it pays to have some nice pads floating around subtly during break downs etc. James Holden does some nice stuff, definately worth checking out some of his work.

Finally, on a music point, my main problem with trance as it is right now is that it really does lack 'groove'. If you want to make a winning trance piece, for me at least, remember that it is dance music and that its purpose is to make peoples feet move, not wow them with you're production skills. I think if you keep this as you're focus you wont go far wrong. Maybe try mixing it up and introducing a break beat at some point? Or some more rhythmic techno type loops? Anything to get the track grooving!

Good luck

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oblagon - Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:19 am

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van buuren, tiesto, corsten are the evil 3 that spread the dutch trance pap plague around the world. they probably have a trance press machine in the basement of their 'purple eye' label. twistoo and van burden is complete garbage. well produced, completely empty, the same sounding shit. corsten, with exception of handful of system f tracks is just as bad.

yeah, the good stuff is there underneath all that dutch crap.

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no_signal - Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:22 am

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Now this is why I say that k-v-r forum is full of shit.
I guess ppl have too strong personality, or they are tooo self proud.
When a thread gets f**ked up, it always begins with :
"I ..." , "so you ..." "coz I ...".
Get some education ppl!

People may have different opinion, culture, education, taste...
But this doesn't mean they are wrong.

And if one states that progressive house is more artistic/musical than melodic trance or other (good) trance music, needs some medical help on his brain for sure.
When a NEW music style comes up usually is worst, and they get worst and even worst...
And finally... trance not about the bassline or the kick, or the groove and the AKAI cd is ripped off... It's more about the melodic part.
Usually ppl who make good trance, work mouch more on the melodic/vocal part than anything else.
So just go gack to your "bandlimited world" and go on making your shitty music.

Music is about giving the best of your creativity, not about who uses what, how loud, what measure and what tempo

I enjoy to listen every musical style, as long as it's tasty, even classical music.

End of f**king task.

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nuffink - Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:28 am

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Now you just pick that dummy up young man, and put teddy back in his playpen.

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no_signal - Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:39 am

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Btw, music is trance.
Everything that is nice to our ears, and it repeating itself getting new and new textures induces the state of trance in our mind.
Even moovies, magazines or books.

http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/faithfull/379/trance.html

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nuffink - Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:43 am

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No it's not.

No it doesn't.

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spaceman - Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:48 am

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well I agree with the guy..

all we do is a constant search for pleasure, it's all a way to get 'stoned' in a way, stoned here being a word for seeking rewards and changing your consciousness

sex, music, movies, books, cigarettes, beer, socialising etc.. do it in mild ways.. but it's still the same

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nuffink - Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:50 am

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So everything's trance then.

Tolstoy, Shakepeare, Hitchcock... all trance.

Get a grip.

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donkey tugger - Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:54 am

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Put me in a trance loads of times, well used to fall asleep actually, same difference.

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