It's still on the agenda. Apprently Claes has been too busy with Surge and moving to Berlin. But he just gave a bit of hope of more progress on the SC front as well - thank god!bduffy wrote:Yeah, whatever happened to Shortcircuit 2??
Sampler Wars?
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- KVRian
- 862 posts since 4 Apr, 2001 from Finland
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
What kind of a war dies after five pages?
One thing about Yellow Tools' Independence, to their credit they don't actually refer to it as a sampler. They call it a sonic workstation. Slightly detrimental to their credit, they in fact say, "INDEPENDENCE is the ultimate and innovative "Sonic Workstation" for sample libraries and closes the gap between Virtual Instruments and Samplers. From both these systems only the advantages were combined to an intuitively operatable software solution."
Strange that in deciding what were the advantages in a sampler that they chose to omit recording and destructive editing. Cut/copy/paste, not exactly a pie in the sky kind of request for inclusion, and yet so many sample-based software makers just seem to think as long as we have Sound Forge and Wavelab installed, everything is just fine. But maybe I want to destroy the sample only inside the sampler, for the given instance I want to use it, and not in fact destroy my copy on disc? And maybe I don't want to have several dozen variations of the same sample saved to disc, most of which I'm only going to use once.
Could you imagine using a desktop publishing app like Quark or InDesign without the ability to edit text? Like if Adobe said to themselves, "Well, everybody should have Word installed, so why bother?"
One thing about Yellow Tools' Independence, to their credit they don't actually refer to it as a sampler. They call it a sonic workstation. Slightly detrimental to their credit, they in fact say, "INDEPENDENCE is the ultimate and innovative "Sonic Workstation" for sample libraries and closes the gap between Virtual Instruments and Samplers. From both these systems only the advantages were combined to an intuitively operatable software solution."
Strange that in deciding what were the advantages in a sampler that they chose to omit recording and destructive editing. Cut/copy/paste, not exactly a pie in the sky kind of request for inclusion, and yet so many sample-based software makers just seem to think as long as we have Sound Forge and Wavelab installed, everything is just fine. But maybe I want to destroy the sample only inside the sampler, for the given instance I want to use it, and not in fact destroy my copy on disc? And maybe I don't want to have several dozen variations of the same sample saved to disc, most of which I'm only going to use once.
Could you imagine using a desktop publishing app like Quark or InDesign without the ability to edit text? Like if Adobe said to themselves, "Well, everybody should have Word installed, so why bother?"
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- KVRAF
- 19134 posts since 13 Feb, 2003 from Vancouver, Canada
That's funny, because someone just posted a "review" of Independance based solely on them calling it a sampler.
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- Banned
- 195 posts since 20 Dec, 2006
not just "someone"
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- KVRAF
- 19134 posts since 13 Feb, 2003 from Vancouver, Canada
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- KVRist
- 304 posts since 22 May, 2002 from Holland
OK ok Ok!!! 
The basic question here is: don't ask what your sampler can do for you; ask what you can do for your sampler!!!
The basic question here is: don't ask what your sampler can do for you; ask what you can do for your sampler!!!
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
Still, I'm wondering why there isn't a perfect sampler, or if not perfect at least complete. Right now, my most complete sampler is still 3 or 4 apps and plugins combined. I wonder why we have to have a sampler that records, a cell-based drum player, a non-keyboard based loop recorder/player, a phrase sampler, a keyboard-based multisample mapper/player, a stored sample granulator, a slicer, a wave editor, and a wave sequencer isolated as separate programs?
For some developers, I'm sure it is about maximizing sales, but then there are developers who give their software away for free, so that can't be the reason for everybody. In some ways, some apps like Live, FL, Bidule, Audiomulch, Orion, etc come close, but miss one or two key components and carry an awful lot of extra crap, and just don't make it as the perfect sampler.
Audiomulch combined with Liveslice, Edison, Shortcircuit, and Battery cover pretty much every sampling function I'd want. Or Live with Ableton Sampler, Edison and Crusher-X would probably cover roughly the same ground. Or several other combinations, but sadly nothing to cover them all-in-one (or even most in one). At least VST makes it easy to work with them together, but drag and drop doesn't work perfectly between most apps/plugins and I could really use a much bigger monitor to work with all of them together.
Sigh. Pardon my eeyoring.
For some developers, I'm sure it is about maximizing sales, but then there are developers who give their software away for free, so that can't be the reason for everybody. In some ways, some apps like Live, FL, Bidule, Audiomulch, Orion, etc come close, but miss one or two key components and carry an awful lot of extra crap, and just don't make it as the perfect sampler.
Audiomulch combined with Liveslice, Edison, Shortcircuit, and Battery cover pretty much every sampling function I'd want. Or Live with Ableton Sampler, Edison and Crusher-X would probably cover roughly the same ground. Or several other combinations, but sadly nothing to cover them all-in-one (or even most in one). At least VST makes it easy to work with them together, but drag and drop doesn't work perfectly between most apps/plugins and I could really use a much bigger monitor to work with all of them together.
Sigh. Pardon my eeyoring.
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- KVRAF
- 19134 posts since 13 Feb, 2003 from Vancouver, Canada
I would postulate that maybe it's just too much development hell to put all that into one instrument, maybe? 
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
Given what I've seen put in to other instruments, I think if not all than at least most of that could be done in one instrument. But until I feel driven enough to learn to code it myself (which really is never, I hate programming so) I'm sure it won't come to pass. I don't think that many makers of samplers are particularly interested in samplers.
But, I bitch not, I can live fine with what there is. I just often wonder when making something like Kontakt 2, why they never throw in a little something for the folk who aren't interested in just multi-sampled libraries.
But, I bitch not, I can live fine with what there is. I just often wonder when making something like Kontakt 2, why they never throw in a little something for the folk who aren't interested in just multi-sampled libraries.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
er... you sure know that Kontakt 2 is more than just a "multi-sampled library"?
The scripting engine and the easy modulation matrix alone is totally worth to spend the money on. The rundown VSL library disc is just bonus then.
The scripting engine and the easy modulation matrix alone is totally worth to spend the money on. The rundown VSL library disc is just bonus then.
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- KVRist
- 181 posts since 9 Jan, 2007
Hello Shamann:
Yellow Tools DOES refer to their "Independence" product (which is one of those notorious non-sampling "samplers") as a SAMPLER on their website.
Here is an excerpt from their snake-oil marketing spiel:
"Independence: Simply the fastest and most powerful Sampler, Virtual Instrument, Workstation"
URL: http://www.yellowtools.us/cp21/cms/index.php?id=614
This is very shady. I'm sure that quite a few of their customers feel like they've been sold a pig in a poke.
Yellow Tools DOES refer to their "Independence" product (which is one of those notorious non-sampling "samplers") as a SAMPLER on their website.
Here is an excerpt from their snake-oil marketing spiel:
"Independence: Simply the fastest and most powerful Sampler, Virtual Instrument, Workstation"
URL: http://www.yellowtools.us/cp21/cms/index.php?id=614
This is very shady. I'm sure that quite a few of their customers feel like they've been sold a pig in a poke.
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- KVRAF
- 1972 posts since 18 Apr, 2004
I'm with ya shamann, question is whom are the developers with?, I'm looking foward to what Mod is going to come up with, and also i'm keeping the faith in Guru, as well I can't wait to get my grubby hands on that beat inc thing
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- KVRAF
- 19134 posts since 13 Feb, 2003 from Vancouver, Canada
Yeah. I'm sure everyone who bought this thought they were buying something that sampled incoming audio because they used the word once in their copy, and it never claims to do so in its features. Yeah, you nailed them alright, boy.bluepride wrote:Hello Shamann:
Yellow Tools DOES refer to their "Independence" product (which is one of those notorious non-sampling "samplers") as a SAMPLER on their website.
Here is an excerpt from their snake-oil marketing spiel:
"Independence: Simply the fastest and most powerful Sampler, Virtual Instrument, Workstation"
URL: http://www.yellowtools.us/cp21/cms/index.php?id=614
This is very shady. I'm sure that quite a few of their customers feel like they've been sold a pig in a poke.
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- KVRist
- 181 posts since 9 Jan, 2007
Look, all I'm saying is that people expect certain things from music products sold as "samplers". It does seem to be a bit of a scam, because samplers really are supposed to digitize audio, at least strictly speaking.
"Independence" is truly bizarre - an awfully strange mix of stuff. Why on earth would Yellow integrate a "Midi Groove Player" and an ARPEGGIATOR into a sound player, and then try to sell it as a SAMPLER?
I just don't get it. If these manufacturers want the mystique that comes from selling a product that's called a "sampler", why not just include sampler features so that it's all on the up-and-up? For God's sake, it wouldn't be very hard to do today, and then they would not have to put up with so much whining from the likes of us, not to mention disgruntled customers. You should see what is showing up on the HALion board these days over at cubase.net.. that kind of thing can't be good for business.
Last night someone here commented on the "SamplerBots". Well, I say deliver just one of these "soft-sampler" products that's really a sampler, without being crippled in some important way, and we'll all shut up. In fact, we'll even buy it and help get the word out about that great product. Right now, I pretty much own all of these dumb "soft-sampler" things, and DirectWave is the closest to being complete (h/t vader..) but not available on Mac.
I have not looked at Emu X2 though. It seems to complicated for me to deal with, and I'm put off by their claim of "pristine" transposition. I like to get some grit from transposition, so I avoid "super accurate, pristine" interpolation like the plague. Has anyone here tried X2? Any impressions?
"Independence" is truly bizarre - an awfully strange mix of stuff. Why on earth would Yellow integrate a "Midi Groove Player" and an ARPEGGIATOR into a sound player, and then try to sell it as a SAMPLER?
I just don't get it. If these manufacturers want the mystique that comes from selling a product that's called a "sampler", why not just include sampler features so that it's all on the up-and-up? For God's sake, it wouldn't be very hard to do today, and then they would not have to put up with so much whining from the likes of us, not to mention disgruntled customers. You should see what is showing up on the HALion board these days over at cubase.net.. that kind of thing can't be good for business.
Last night someone here commented on the "SamplerBots". Well, I say deliver just one of these "soft-sampler" products that's really a sampler, without being crippled in some important way, and we'll all shut up. In fact, we'll even buy it and help get the word out about that great product. Right now, I pretty much own all of these dumb "soft-sampler" things, and DirectWave is the closest to being complete (h/t vader..) but not available on Mac.
I have not looked at Emu X2 though. It seems to complicated for me to deal with, and I'm put off by their claim of "pristine" transposition. I like to get some grit from transposition, so I avoid "super accurate, pristine" interpolation like the plague. Has anyone here tried X2? Any impressions?
