One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

[crimsonwarlock]

That holds true for sounds that are long enough to actual notice such an effect within an mixed track but I'm pretty sure it is negligible for short sounds (i.e. drum sounds).

In my opinion it is particularly noticeable for bassdrum as the varying transients of free running oscillators on this type sound will stand out more.

I think we have to agree to disagree on this

As a side note, this illustrates nicely the difference in musical views and aims, as a bassdrum is surely not the driving force in my preferred genre, while it clearly is in many (most?) OSC submissions

[Mushy Mushy]

That holds true for sounds that are long enough to actual notice such an effect within an mixed track but I'm pretty sure it is negligible for short sounds (i.e. drum sounds).

In my opinion it is particularly noticeable for bassdrum as the varying transients of free running oscillators on this type sound will stand out more.

I think we have to agree to disagree on this

As a side note, this illustrates nicely the difference in musical views and aims, as a bassdrum is surely not the driving force in my preferred genre, while it clearly is in many (most?) OSC submissions

Interesting.
My kick seems rather consistent on Junglist. Not noticed any issues whatsoever.

[Aiynzahev]

That holds true for sounds that are long enough to actual notice such an effect within an mixed track but I'm pretty sure it is negligible for short sounds (i.e. drum sounds).

In my opinion it is particularly noticeable for bassdrum as the varying transients of free running oscillators on this type sound will stand out more.

Yes it is. If you are concentrated on making dance type music or anything with a driving beat you notice this immediately. While I often forego the OSC because I don't find a synth able to a good kick (Or I don't have the patience for it) I am still in favour of the no sample rule generally. It keeps the playing field more level in my opinion and once you begin sampling the synth things can change substantially.

It also encourages me to not do a dance oriented track, which is more outside of my normal sphere.

[V'ger]

I think we have to agree to disagree on this

Fair enough

On a side-note, how do you sample to load in Softdrum?

My kick seems rather consistent on Junglist. Not noticed any issues whatsoever.

Not here maybe, but on some synths it can be quite noticeable. The rule was introduced when there was wide agreement that the best cure for an inconsistent kick was to sample a good one and use that. Can't remember the synth right now (Superwave?), but it's not uncommon.

[Mushy Mushy]

^ Oh sorry. Thought we were talking about Junglist.

FWIW I'm also a +1 for no sampling.

[crimsonwarlock]

It keeps the playing field more level in my opinion and once you begin sampling the synth things can change substantially.

HOW can things change substantially? What is the real noticeable difference between recording a kick on a audio track (freezing, which is allowed) and recording a kick as a sample (which isn't allowed) ?

And also HOW is there NOT a level playing field if this is simply an acceptance in the rules, that are obviously creating a level playing field? If it would be allowed to use sampled drum sounds (from the actual synth, patches available for scrutiny), that would be allowed for EVERYONE, so why would that not be a level playing field

[crimsonwarlock]

On a side-note, how do you sample to load in Softdrum?

I just record a few hits with different velocities, render that to audio, cut up the audio-track with a editor and load those into something like SoftDrum (which is my current workhorse for this). Setting up a full drum-kit with velocities in SoftDrum takes about 30 minutes from start (recording the hits) to finish.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that having 12 instances of a synth running with free-running oscillators will bring my ancient DAW down to it's knees without playing one single note. So that's another reason for me to want to do drums in a sample-player as that is sometimes the only way to actually play all drum-sounds together in a performance.

[V'ger]

You can still work like you want even if the rule should remain the same after the vote, the only difference is that for your final song render, if the sampling is causing you to get a different result than what the synth would do (not always the case), you would have to swap them out for the actual synth or a track render of each.

So your workflow can remain intact. The synth with the correct sounds you already have anyway. With Reaper's routing flexibility, you could even set it up so that the outs are the same between Softdrum and the different synths so any effects or sends etc are the same.

[Aiynzahev]

It keeps the playing field more level in my opinion and once you begin sampling the synth things can change substantially.

HOW can things change substantially? What is the real noticeable difference between recording a kick on a audio track (freezing, which is allowed) and recording a kick as a sample (which isn't allowed) ?

And also HOW is there NOT a level playing field if this is simply an acceptance in the rules, that are obviously creating a level playing field? If it would be allowed to use sampled drum sounds (from the actual synth, patches available for scrutiny), that would be allowed for EVERYONE, so why would that not be a level playing field

Well speaking from my experience the difficulty is this:

Some synths have no option for what is called phase reset or osc reset. Where the synth does not allow you to restart the waveform from a given point on each note trigger. In other words synths that have oscillators as free running only do not allow for consistent transients and therefore percussive elements, this is especially noticeable with kicks.

The reason it is different from bouncing to a wave is this: A free running osc will produce a kick with varying transients. Some will sound soft, others will sound hard. Some will have a nice click transient whereas others will sound feeble without any real attack. If you bounce this to audio you will hear each kick vary, however if you then cut out from that audio just the one kick that sound right to you and repeat it using sampling you are now doing something that you could not have done with the synth alone.

In my opinion that alone is not the problem. The problem is what follows, if I can sample a kick, then I can sample a pulse waveform and cut a tiny slice and layer it with the kick, re-arrange the phases, stack and layer lots of elements and re-arrange them according to the correct phase. This quickly becomes about sampling skills rather than synth programming. It's not like this is evil or something, but it starts to detract from the simple challenges of just taking the synth and making do with what it can or cannot do.

Now if the synth has osc reset I don't care, sample away, because the rule is not to produce something using sampling techniques that cannot be achieved live with the synth itself or a combination of synth layers.

It's an arbitrary rule of course, but I happen to be in favour of it because I don't think the OSC should be able sampling skills. That start to move to production skills generally and we have (or had? ) a dedicated contest for that in the music cafe area.

[crimsonwarlock]

Some synths have no option for what is called phase reset or osc reset. Where the synth does not allow you to restart the waveform from a given point on each note trigger. In other words synths that have oscillators as free running only do not allow for consistent transients and therefore percussive elements, this is especially noticeable with kicks.

Thanks for your elaboration. I already got this however, the point is that the challenge to get a consistent kick sound is mainly linked to dance-oriented productions. My challenge with drums is the exact opposite; how to get a live and dynamic feel into my drums. Having a kick that is not 'consistent', is good in my book

Still, this debate keeps circling back (for me) to the realization that the OSC is more or less dance-oriented and not really the place for more 'performance' oriented styles. I also think that this might be the reason that we don't see many submissions that are NOT dance-oriented. I have to applaud Photonic for what he accomplishes in the OSC, as he clearly is in my realm of the woods for styles (I'm not nearly as good as he is though). I remember him backing out of a certain OSC because the synth chosen didn't have pitch-wheel support. I sympathize with that, as I can only work with a synth that somehow grabs me when I'm actually 'playing' it.

Well, I rest my case. We'll see how the votes are going to swing, but again, I'm not holding my breath on this one.

[idfpower]

Still, this debate keeps circling back (for me) to the realization that the OSC is more or less dance-oriented and not really the place for more 'performance' oriented styles.

From my perspective I would say it's the other way round: a lot less than more I've heard plenty of performance oriented songs and those tend to stand out precisely because they were created in a different manner. But it depends from one OSC to the next. I for ex just make a song and don't care if it will fit the majority's taste or not

[Aiynzahev]

Im sorry I don't see how the OSC has nothing to do with dance music. It's open to any style.

[crimsonwarlock]

Im sorry I don't see how the OSC has nothing to do with dance music. It's open to any style.

There is a big difference between 'open to any style' and 'attracting any style' The simple fact is that votes are mainly from participants and not much else, resulting in a obvious bias towards certain styles. As most participants make 4/4 style music, voting is biased to that same area of styles as well. It's simply about what you like to make is closely related to what you like to listen to. There's no secrets there.

There are obvious exceptions, sometimes driven by the spectral scope of the synth (SQ8L comes to mind). Still, real performance-style tracks are pretty rare in the OSC (again, Photonic being the obvious exception).

Mind you, I don't care if I get votes or not. I'm not in it for the prizes as I stated several times before. It just goes to what kind of musicians/producers are attracted to the OSC, and how that plays out in something like the current poll about the rules.

[idfpower]

Well I guess it depends on what you mean by dance-oriented For ex try "dancing" on one of abovethoughts' songs - the master of noise I've heard plenty of chillout/ambient stuff, '80s Jarre/Vangelis electronica heavily influenced tracks, then there's evo2slo's guitar style music, cinematic type tracks, and so on. There's plenty of diversity. But then KVR overall seems to attract ppl interested more in software rather than hardware and yes, a lot of them are into EDM and related music. I find that normal

[chilledpanda]

It keeps the playing field more level in my opinion and once you begin sampling the synth things can change substantially.

HOW can things change substantially? What is the real noticeable difference between recording a kick on a audio track (freezing, which is allowed) and recording a kick as a sample (which isn't allowed) ?

And also HOW is there NOT a level playing field if this is simply an acceptance in the rules, that are obviously creating a level playing field? If it would be allowed to use sampled drum sounds (from the actual synth, patches available for scrutiny), that would be allowed for EVERYONE, so why would that not be a level playing field

Would have thought the fact that not having a sound that is consistent makes a noticeable difference between freezing and using a sample that is the same and consistently timed. After all OSC is partly about overcoming the synth short comings, that is part of the fun and yes at times frustration of not getting exactly what you want.
I dumped a half completed tune in my first entry OSC cm, because I knew I was running out of time and the drums were so hard to create (at least for me as I'm still a beginner especially sound design wise) so I changed VST and did another tune and had more enjoyment out of that. I will look at using the other with some drums sometime, so that time wont be wasted.
IMHO Sampling would just allow to pick the best consistent sound easily, just play the synth drum sound repeatedly and cut the best or do you have to record it from one hit? If the sound is actually inconsistent it could be hard to re-create the same to validate as they might be similar but never the same.
I do sympathise with the workflow issues, though as it is a competition with restrictions, sometimes you have to adapt to the limitations, opposed to bending the limitations to how you want it too work.