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V'ger
KVRAF
 
3928 posts since 15 Dec, 2009

Postby V'ger; Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:15 am

Agree the weighted points system is not entirely fair because some might divide the points on just a few entries because they didn't have time to assess all properly, while those that did gave to many, but less. It also makes it more difficult to vote when the problem is lack of voters.

Also feel that the 10-7-5-3-2-1 like now is not entirely fair either as it presupposes that one song is much better than the the 2nd one and twice as good as no. 3 and that is seldom the case.

@Olikana: I think the prizes go further down than top 3, but still open to a 3-2-1 system for simplicity. On the other hand, a lot of entrants will never get points that way which can be discouraging, and I'd rather have entries than votes.

About songs being downloadable, they are mostly, I just want to make it part of the rules.

But how about covers and sampling? Personally I have no trouble with covers and understand completely people with PC trouble wanting to sample the synths. Samplers like Highlife can even sample the synth programs so that one can play it like the original, how U feel about that?

@Mac: Tagged mp3's mean that information is stored within the mp3 file what the artist and track name etc is, most mp3 players and especially cheap ones like on phones etc will only show this. On my phone's Walkman (can't believe Sony making such crap), I have no idea what track is playing if it's untagged or .wav file as only part of the filename is visible. :shrug:
uiiuiiu
KVRist
 
38 posts since 9 Mar, 2009

Postby uiiuiiu; Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:38 am

V'ger wrote:Agree the weighted points system is not entirely fair because some might divide the points on just a few entries because they didn't have time to assess all properly, while those that did gave to many, but less. It also makes it more difficult to vote when the problem is lack of voters.

Also feel that the 10-7-5-3-2-1 like now is not entirely fair either as it presupposes that one song is much better than the the 2nd one and twice as good as no. 3 and that is seldom the case.


That's why there should be minimum ( 4, 5 or 6? ) amount entries voted upon by each voter. Nothing is going to prevent people from voting without checking out all the entries properly, but that would discourage to do otherwise.


V'ger wrote:But how about covers and sampling? Personally I have no trouble with covers and understand completely people with PC trouble wanting to sample the synths. Samplers like Highlife can even sample the synth programs so that one can play it like the original, how U feel about that?


I can't see anything wrong with covers as long as it's very clearly stated ( and song named accordingly ) that it is the case. Same goes for remixes as well.

When it comes to sampling I think it's entirely justified to freeze tracks or to make one cpu heavy line in to a audio format as long as no modifications are done after wards to the audio. After all that would defeat the purpose of the competition as you could endlessly process the audio wave and make it entirely unrecognizable from original. Samplers do come with their own set of effects and edition options that would be accessible to only to that particular sampler.

So no, I don't think sampling should be part of OSC, but there is no reason to prevent contestants bouncing tracks to avoid undue CPU spikes or to avoid technical problems with the synth.
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Mac of BIOnighT
KVRAF
 
2497 posts since 2 Jun, 2005, from Italy

Postby Mac of BIOnighT; Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:55 am

Thanks for the explanation, V'ger :) Regarding points, how about a simple 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-point system?

Regarding sampling, I think that should not be a part of the osc under no circumstances (if we're talking about real note-by-note or loops or whatever sampling - if you're using a sampler as a simple recorder, as if you were bouncing tracks or using a multitrack recorder, that wouldn't make any difference on the final result. Real sampling, however, shouldn't be allowed).

I know some people will hate me for saying this, but I also do think that the use of presets should be kept at a strict minimum. I feel that osc's are about using the synth as a synth (ergo, to create sounds) and not as a sort of ready-to-use sound canvas. There have been tracks made entirely with presets, but at that point it's no longer a synth challenge, it becomes a composition competition. Many times I hear amazing sounds in some of the tracks and that would deserve points, but I can't base my votes on that (even if it definitely should be a part of it) because I don't know if it is a preset or not that I'm hearing. That is unfair to those people who actually squeeze incredible sounds out of the instrument (no, I'm not talking about myself, I basically only use bread-and-butter synth sounds), so I feel something should be said about that, too.

(by the way, in case anybody was wondering: the reason why I'm taking part in the discussions and I'll probably manage to partecipate in the next osc is that I'm taking a month off from my dayjob, in a few weeks everything will be back to my horrifying normal...)
.
My website: http://www.macvibes.com
Space Adventures website: http://www.macvibes.com/spaceadventures/
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V'ger
KVRAF
 
3928 posts since 15 Dec, 2009

Postby V'ger; Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:10 am

About voting time, for NA2SC1 it was over a month and there was not many votes coming in until the last days, so I think it is like with submissions that it is the deadline that spurs action more than anything.

KVR has monthly contests in the 'Music Cafe' forum section here, and there the voting time is 1 week and votes to be given to the top 10 but still they come in. It may be that the short time and right after submissions is good as people are still into the competition. Another benefit with short voting time is that there's less chance of being influenced by the current score as everyone gives their votes more or less at the same time.

That competition also has a simple 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 system btw.
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Mac of BIOnighT
KVRAF
 
2497 posts since 2 Jun, 2005, from Italy

Postby Mac of BIOnighT; Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:59 pm

Regarding the number of votes, I think of the Italian saying "Even gogs don't wag their tails in return for nothing" (rough translation). As I suggested some time ago, there should be a prize for one of the voters, too, picked randomly. A lot of people might wonder, "Why should I bother? What's in it for me?". Human nature...
.
My website: http://www.macvibes.com
Space Adventures website: http://www.macvibes.com/spaceadventures/
vanmorrison
KVRist
 
63 posts since 10 Jan, 2010

Postby vanmorrison; Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:19 am

I think it's good to have few and certain rules for voting, because voting is difficult... the tracks are many... and yes, I think we should tag them... last time I downloaded the chimera tunes something strange happened and my mp3 player gave me strange caracters, I don't know why... I think that tagging them will make it easier to understand what we're listening... maybe a little tutorial may help us to do it
MaxSynths
KVRAF
 
4638 posts since 1 Nov, 2006

Postby MaxSynths; Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:03 am

About tagging: usually I always tag my MP3 files, BTW I wonder if the tag informations are still available once the file has been uploaded to Soundcloud. If I understood right SC modify the MP3 file (hence the negative comments about sound quality), if so this is something to check to avoid useless extra job.
Image
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V'ger
KVRAF
 
3928 posts since 15 Dec, 2009

Postby V'ger; Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:04 pm

SoundCloud will only change the bitrate of any that's not 128kbs for the online player, but not touch downloads which will stay as they were uploaded, so tags and original quality is there.

For ways to tag, there are some how-to's in the FAQ on the site. (if someone knows how to do this on Mac I will add it)

About the other topics like voting and voting time, there are very differing views so far and no real consensus, so please come with more ideas or ways to compromise.
Mike777
KVRist
 
371 posts since 8 Oct, 2005

Postby Mike777; Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:02 pm

I like how the Cafe contests are run, voting and deadlines, etc. But I prefer contests starting on the 1st, and deadline to vote one week is good enough. Also, have covers been allowed up to now? If not, I don't think that rule should change now.
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V'ger
KVRAF
 
3928 posts since 15 Dec, 2009

Postby V'ger; Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:26 pm

Mike777 wrote:I like how the Cafe contests are run, voting and deadlines, etc.

Yes, submissions and voting all done in 1 month works surprisingly well there. (3 weeks for submissions, 1 for vote for those who don't know)

Although from my own experience, it takes a bit more effort and longer time with only one synth doing all sounds (and being judged on the sounds as well as the song).

About covers, they are allowed, but I guess tend to suffer somewhat in the voting.
tattiemannie
KVRAF
 
3245 posts since 27 Dec, 2007

Postby tattiemannie; Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:39 pm

Here's a suggestion for future comps .... It can be difficult for the organiser to remember and trace artists who attribute their tracks to names other than their kvr nickname. I think it would be convenient for all concerned if, when submitting tracks, the KVR username appears.

I dont have a prob with, for example, objectman using the artist name Dead Eddy, .. and in this case, not an inconvenience because I now know that connection ... but I would ask that in future the track in some way includes the KVR username ... something like this ( artist name first I think we now all agree? ) ...

"Dead Eddy(objectman) - tracktitle" or "the beatsoul(vanmorrison) - tracktitle"

The problem arises when prizes are to be sorted out, and/or the organiser needs to contact a contributor directly in private. It is unnecessarily time consuming to have to scroll back pages and pages of a thread to find a KVR username associated with a track entered under a different artist name.
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V'ger
KVRAF
 
3928 posts since 15 Dec, 2009

Postby V'ger; Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:14 pm

Agree with that.

And to take more ideas from the KVR monthlies, I suggest to add to the rules:

- Can not vote for yourself
- Voters must have had 20 prior posts to vote unless entered

Ok, so with only a few days left before OSC23 and the new rules to be fixed, let's hear your final ideas.
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abstractcats
KVRAF
 
3448 posts since 19 Aug, 2008, from USA-lien In the 8th Dimention

Postby abstractcats; Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:42 pm

tattiemannie wrote:...
.... as outgoing chief,


I'm certainly out of the loop(Pun intended :hihi: ) on the OSC. Sorry to you go tattie :( but I understand somethings must change, thanks for all the hard
work, I've had a great time and learned some things about production doing the OSC. Thanks again. And as a lovely parting gift...


Image

:D :D :D

And to V'ger, :hail: :hail: the new Chief !!looking forward to doing some OSCs this year and yes, I'll be cheating...but still losing I'm sure :hihi: :hihi:

Oh yeah! The OSC site you set up is great and I'll put a link to on my site which I'm re constructing over the next few weeks. Thanks to V'ger for filling the Chief's shoes.
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V'ger
KVRAF
 
3928 posts since 15 Dec, 2009

Postby V'ger; Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:23 pm

Thank you :)

Ok since there were conflicting wishes about voting and time etc in this thread, I guess a middle ground must be found and settled at, so here is a draft suggestion of the new rules: https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/rules

If there are no major objections or ideas for adjustments or additions in the next days, they will be used for OSC 23 to start at 1st December.

We will of course have regular rules revisions to come, whatever is decided now will not be set in stone.
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Mac of BIOnighT
KVRAF
 
2497 posts since 2 Jun, 2005, from Italy

Postby Mac of BIOnighT; Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:39 pm

Looks all fine for me, except a couple of things:

Challenge to run from 1st to last every month, voting to middle of month (15th) (KVR time is used as clock)

This is not entirely clear for thick headed people like me; after reading it several times, I guess what's missing is probably just a couple of words to make it clear that the voting is not for the OSC currently receiving entries, but for the OSC that closed at the end of the previous month (sorry, I wouldn't know how to word this)


Equal scores to be separated by highest individual points entries (number of top scores and so on)
This is a bit vague, too (again, for thick headed people like me)...

No track length limit
This one I like :D :P

The rest seems to be a perfect balance of all suggestions :)
.
My website: http://www.macvibes.com
Space Adventures website: http://www.macvibes.com/spaceadventures/
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