KVR Audio

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:08 pm

Where do you draw the line between musical composition and cookie cutter and who is to say which is which?

"Do Re Mi" from the sound of music is arguably one of the simplest songs ever written and has become a standard classic.

Conversely, I could take a a sequencer with a random function and create one of the most elaborate sequences ever devised where absolutely no human musical input was given.

Music is music. When we start nit picking about HOW that music was created and what's legitimate and what's not, that's when we start getting into very dangerous territory.

My 2 cents for whatever they're worth.

ontrackp · Post by **ontrackp** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:19 pm

So give a monkey a word processor and eventually you'll get "War and Peace"?

Taron · Post by **Taron** » Tue May 26, 2015 12:17 am

ontrackp wrote:+1 Taron. I think your perspective is well stated. And to clarify, I am not suggesting that a rule be created against procedural composition. I merely hope to urge the budding composers in this competition to look into their hearts and souls for inspiration, rather than a computer screen.

Some excellent urging!

I think the most relevant points were made already.

mehum · Post by **mehum** » Wed May 27, 2015 3:23 pm

I was going to argue a bit more but I'll restrain myself

On another note... Have been thinking an OSC with a fully modular instrument would be nice. However, I've found the candidates I've tried lacking...

Kamiooka seemed promising. Both 32bit and 64bit although not Mac. However the oscillators suffer from a serious bug and is constantly outputting a C.

XSRDO Patchwork is win32 only and is a tritonus out of tune... UI is a bit clunky as well and the cables quickly takes over the screen...

Sonigen has already been done and also only seems to be win32. seems pretty cool though but a bit...unconventional...

e@rs · Post by **e@rs** » Wed May 27, 2015 6:43 pm

Back to the commercial vs free plugins debate...

With so many different opinions, I'd say the only way to end it is to actually allow commercial plugins for one month and see what comes out. Just talking and talking will lead to nowhere.

rp314 · Post by **rp314** » Wed May 27, 2015 9:25 pm

wagtunes wrote:Where do you draw the line between musical composition and cookie cutter and who is to say which is which?

"Do Re Mi" from the sound of music is arguably one of the simplest songs ever written and has become a standard classic.

Conversely, I could take a a sequencer with a random function and create one of the most elaborate sequences ever devised where absolutely no human musical input was given.

Music is music. When we start nit picking about HOW that music was created and what's legitimate and what's not, that's when we start getting into very dangerous territory.

My 2 cents for whatever they're worth.

More than 2 cents...at least depending on whose aesthetics are involved.

It's been about a century now...Dadaism, Futurism, Pop Art, Indeterminism...the question of how art is created and, intrinsically or as a result of the method, is worth is for some of us a very interesting one.

Asking folks to disclose their methods is probably a fair thing to do but expecting everyone to agree on something so complex and personal is probably a bit much, even if the majority still prefers some established compositional techniques.

EDGEK8D · Post by **EDGEK8D** » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:33 pm

I'm down with whatever, but feel that it would be a disadvantage to those that don't have thousands of dollars of 3rd party software.

In all honesty, it is completely possible to get a very good sounding, even professional sounding mix using stock plugins anyhow.

Now, I find that some of the pricier ones do sound good, and seem easier to get to your goal faster. Its a workflow/convenience thing mostly. Using Logic's Delay Designer, I can get it very EchoBoy like, but it takes forever.

I like the contest how it is, and I don't care at all if someone uses any kind of sequencer/arpeggiator or whatever to spit out notes. If you use those things the whole song for every synth line, it shows IMO, and only detracts from the overall feel.

there are tons of people in this world who frown on ANY type of electronic music saying we aren't playing ay sort of instrument. I think that's BS as well, so we can't have it both ways. People have been using sequencers for decades. I readily admit I don't record any of my stuff live. I do record a MIDI performance and quantize it, but then sequence it the rest of the way. The piano roll is just a fancy sequencer, so lets not split hairs about how one comes to derive their music.

In the end it takes talent to design good sounds, workup a good arrangement, create tension and release, and polish it off with a quality mix down.....so let them sequence/arp or whatever all they want. I love Logic's arpeggiator and use it a good bit, almost every synth comes with one, so how can we outlaw them?

ImNotDedYet · Post by **ImNotDedYet** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:00 am

The whole reason paid for effects aren't allowed is to even the playing field right - so no one has a distinct advantage over the others. So then how would paid for sequencers or MIDI generators not give someone an advantage over others? I have cthulhu, which has a chord generator that I never use, (the Arp on it is awesome though!) but I could see where someone could get some very cool harmonic progressions using something like that. So, I'd say (even though I don't know if I'll ever find the time to participate again, so consider my "vote" as such) that in the interest and fair spirit of the contest, paid for music generators should not be allowed.

Now, I personally wouldn't use anything outside of an arp to create my music, but if freeware options are available, I'd say let them be used. We don't all get into this with the same background. Some have much more musical theory knowledge and playing ability when starting. Others, as is so obvious are much better at mixing than others. I think even the newest of newbies should be able to participate in the competition, and if using a free music generation tool is their best option...let them at it. As someone else mentioned, it would be good to ween yourself off of it in time, just as it was good for me to not use any presets eventually. I believe the spirit of the OSC is for everyone to have a good time, learn some more about music production and hopefully get some nice feedback and maybe even win a prize - or at least the respect of their cohorts. And this includes not limiting the newest of those interested in music production.

RichardSemper · Post by **RichardSemper** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:48 pm

Several people have suggested T-Force Alpha Plus for a future OSC, and I would like to see that happen

As I have used this synth in a previous OSC (Any One Synth) i will make a few observations.
1. It is a windows only, which might exclude some folks.
2. It does use a lot of CPU, gave me a few problems on that score (tho i did manage 30 instances).
3. The sound of it is Awesome! Especially for trance

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:49 pm

RichardSemper wrote:Several people have suggested T-Force Alpha Plus for a future OSC, and I would like to see that happen
As I have used this synth in a previous OSC (Any One Synth) i will make a few observations.
1. It is a windows only, which might exclude some folks.
2. It does use a lot of CPU, gave me a few problems on that score (tho i did manage 30 instances).
3. The sound of it is Awesome! Especially for trance

Well, if we freeze every track, it might be doable.

bjporter · Post by **bjporter** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:51 pm

wagtunes wrote:
RichardSemper wrote:Several people have suggested T-Force Alpha Plus for a future OSC, and I would like to see that happen
As I have used this synth in a previous OSC (Any One Synth) i will make a few observations.
1. It is a windows only, which might exclude some folks.
2. It does use a lot of CPU, gave me a few problems on that score (tho i did manage 30 instances).
3. The sound of it is Awesome! Especially for trance
Well, if we freeze every track, it might be doable.

Do you guys have a good system / work flow for freezing tracks?

z.prime · Post by **z.prime** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:02 pm

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:10 pm

bjporter wrote:
wagtunes wrote:
RichardSemper wrote:Several people have suggested T-Force Alpha Plus for a future OSC, and I would like to see that happen
As I have used this synth in a previous OSC (Any One Synth) i will make a few observations.
1. It is a windows only, which might exclude some folks.
2. It does use a lot of CPU, gave me a few problems on that score (tho i did manage 30 instances).
3. The sound of it is Awesome! Especially for trance
Well, if we freeze every track, it might be doable.
Do you guys have a good system / work flow for freezing tracks?

Well, good is a matter of opinion. Let's just say it works for me.

When I do a group of tracks, I try to map out the arrangement in advance. So I'll record and mix each sub group separately. Once that sub group is mixed, I can then freeze the whole group as nothing else is going to come into play other than the overall compression and limiting of the entire piece.

Where this gets tricky is where there are overlapping sections.

For example:

Let's take a hypothetical piece.

Kick - 0:00 to 2:48
Snare - 00:12 to 2:48
Hi Hat - 00:12 to 2:48
Bass - 00:12 to 2:48

Lead 1 - 00:30 to 1:00
Lead 2 - 00:48 to 1:15

Pad 1 - 00:30 to 1:00
Pad 2 - 1:01 to 1:15

ARP 1 - 1:00 to 1:30
Synth 1 - 1:15 to 1:45

Pad 3 - 1:16 to 2:48
Lead 3 - 1:16 to 2:48

As you can see, the foundation of the song covers many different sub groups and some sub groups over lap with others.

What I have to do is make some decisions in the planning stages of what levels I'm going to want to maintain throughout the piece. If I freeze the whole foundation (kick, snare, hat, bass) I better make sure that everything I place around it is going to fit regardless of where in the mix it is time wise.

In other words, lead 2 has to be at a similar level to lead 1 and lead 3. Otherwise, what happens is you have spots in the mix where the foundation is either too loud or too soft.

So I choose a db level for each track and live with it. If there's going to be automation where a track goes up or down in volume (like with risers) then I have to map the low and high db end and make sure it's not too loud or soft at the endpoints.

Lotta work? Sure is. Which is why I'll only do this in a case where I have a VST where more than 3 or 4 instances of it blows up my machine. Normally, I just tend to stay away from them. But if push came to shove and I absolutely had to make a track with a particular VST, this is what I would do.

Please don't ask me to. LOL.

Touch The Universe · Post by **Touch The Universe** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:18 pm

RichardSemper wrote:Several people have suggested T-Force Alpha Plus for a future OSC, and I would like to see that happen
As I have used this synth in a previous OSC (Any One Synth) i will make a few observations.
1. It is a windows only, which might exclude some folks.
2. It does use a lot of CPU, gave me a few problems on that score (tho i did manage 30 instances).
3. The sound of it is Awesome! Especially for trance

YES!!! This synth is so good its incredible its free. That months OSC would be killer for sure. About cpu, it's not too big an issue if you have a decent machine and the chance to use such an synth for the osc should be well worth any of the trouble of freezing tracks (which is nothing at all). If Diva could be an osc then by no means should t-force alpha be exempt

bjporter · Post by **bjporter** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:46 pm

z.prime wrote:

That's what I've been doing wrong

One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread