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EnGee
KVRAF
 
3734 posts since 7 Oct, 2005, from Auckland

Postby EnGee; Wed May 17, 2017 3:31 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Well, I have two or three points as remarks from my first participation in OSC (#98):

1. Commenting seems encouraging but sometimes abused! For example, Doctor Bob wrote two comments on my track, one of them says "Fits your theme well. Good job." but he gave me 1 point in the end :hihi: Anyway, I take it that the comments sometimes means "nothing" absolutely, so for me I will stop commenting on any track (unless asked to do). The others are free to comment on my tracks or not. They are for me just comments don't reflect the real opinion ;)

2. Personally, I think the voting system is nice, but there is one flaw! Is it only internal voting between the participants? I thought it is open to all KVR members (with more than 40 posts)! So, where are the scores of the others? Or does that mean no one at all has voted from outside the participants?! Edit - Not valid point :oops:

3. I don't care if someone gave me 1 point or left a negative comment! Really! We all have different tastes and reactions it seems, but I flagged those "trolls", so next time I will just give them 1 point (that I didn't give to anyone except myself according to the rules), but this 1 point will mean "no vote for this track" and currently I won't vote for Doctor Bob and Peter H in the future (means 1 point for me when I participate).

4. I will participate in future OSC competitions (if I like the synth of course, free or commercial) because the positives outweigh the negatives (for me). There were really great music and I really like some people here from the participants (personality), although I gave low marks for some of them, but it was really unbiased scoring.

5. Congratulations once again for the winners and for all those who took full marks from me! (those the real winners in my eyes!). The competition in the end is successful IMO if we look at it with a friendly view :)
Last edited by EnGee on Wed May 17, 2017 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i5 & i7 Windows 10 64bit, Presonus iTwo, PX-5S, Blofeld and Yamaha HS7.
Cubase 9 Artist, S1v3 Pro, FLS Producer, Reaper, and some nice soft synths and effects.
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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
7768 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Wed May 17, 2017 3:42 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Okay, here is my suggestion for voting.

First of all (and I thought we were going to do this) we need to go to a 10 point system. While I won't be entering anymore of these I would still like to vote for my favorites. 5 point system doesn't work.

Track 1. "Man that's really good. It gets a 5."

Track 2. "Oh, wait, this track is even better. Damn! Okay, I'll knock the other track down to a 4."

Track 3. "Good track. Not perfect so I'll give it a 4. Oh wait, it's not as good as the track that I had at 5 that I now have at 4. Damn! I'll have to make this a 3."

And on and on and on we go.

The 5 point system is a royal headache and doesn't work.

Go to a 10 point system. We need it, desperately.

That's the first fix.

Okay, 2nd fix...

When you cast a vote that is an outlying vote (I'll explain what a non outlying vote is shortly) you have to explain your reasons for the score. So there needs to be a section on the voting for comments that pops up when a vote is cast that is outlying.

Okay, so what's an outlying vote?

With a 10 point system, you have an upper, middle and lower region

Upper Region - 8-10 points
Middle Region - 4-7 points
Lower Region - 1-3 points

The outlying votes are any votes that fall in either the upper or lower region.

So the middle region requires no explanation. I think that's pretty generous to allow a range that wide without having to explain and "justify" your vote. But if you're going to give somebody a 1 (Because you hate them) or a 10 (Because they're your friend) I feel you should justify your vote.

Example: I gave DoctorBob a 4 (which would have been a 9 for this 10 point system) because he did a Jazz piece that sounded very authentic and got some very good Jazz like sounds out of his synth. And so on.

This way, somebody can't just be a dick, give a 1, and move on without consequences.

If they don't give a reason or give a poor reason, they're disqualified from the contest. Plain and simple.

I know this isn't going to be very popular but it'll get rid of all the "vindictive" voting that I know I'm a victim of constantly. And the reason I know this is because my high marks (I do get them) come from the people who are the best at this contest, with few exceptions. When these people explain to me exactly why I received the mark I got and then I see I still get tons of 1s, I know it's nothing but vindictiveness because people here don't like me.

This system will put an end to that shit.

Not that I care anymore since I'm never entering these again, but it'll prevent the trolls from ruining what SHOULD be an enjoyable experience for all.

I'm sorry but when several people tell me my entry was the best thing I've ever done and I still get 8 1s, that's just plain bullshit.

Anyway, like I said, I know this system won't be popular and will never happen, but it'll solve a lot of problems.
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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
7768 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Wed May 17, 2017 3:44 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

EnGee wrote:Well, I have two or three points as remarks from my first participation in OSC (#98):

1. Commenting seems encouraging but sometimes abused! For example, Doctor Bob wrote two comments on my track, one of them says "Fits your theme well. Good job." but he gave me 1 point in the end :hihi: Anyway, I take it that the comments sometimes means "nothing" absolutely, so for me I will stop commenting on any track (unless asked to do). The others are free to comment on my tracks or not. They are for me just comments don't reflect the real opinion ;)

2. Personally, I think the voting system is nice, but there is one flaw! Is it only internal voting between the participants? I thought it is open to all KVR members (with more than 40 posts)! So, where are the scores of the others? Or does that mean no one at all has voted from outside the participants?!

3. I don't care if someone gave me 1 point or left a negative comment! Really! We all have different tastes and reactions it seems, but I flagged those "trolls", so next time I will just give them 1 point (that I didn't give to anyone except myself according to the rules), but this 1 point will mean "no vote for this track" and currently I won't vote for Doctor Bob and Peter H in the future (means 1 point for me when I participate).

4. I will participate in future OSC competitions (if I like the synth of course, free or commercial) because the positives outweigh the negatives (for me). There were really great music and I really like some people here from the participants (personality), although I gave low marks for some of them, but it was really unbiased scoring.

5. Congratulations once again for the winners and for all those who took full marks from me! (those the real winners in my eyes!). The competition in the end is successful IMO if we look at it with a friendly view :)


To answer your one question, for the most part, only the contestants vote. Nobody else really cares.
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Frostline
KVRist
 
128 posts since 12 Aug, 2016

Postby Frostline; Wed May 17, 2017 3:55 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

EnGee wrote:2. Personally, I think the voting system is nice, but there is one flaw! Is it only internal voting between the participants? I thought it is open to all KVR members (with more than 40 posts)! So, where are the scores of the others? Or does that mean no one at all has voted from outside the participants?!

There are usually few if any that vote but did not submit a track from month to month.
Like last month, Fortune Cookie month I voted but did not submit a track. I think there were a couple folks who did this on the any commercial synth one too.
If you look at the score sheet data there will be names in the vertical left side that don't have a match across the top. Their line will be missing the darkened square that for participants is a 1 score in a darkened box where their given and received lines meet.
Win10 x64, Reaper 5.XX x64, i5-3330, 8gb ram, GTX-970, UC-33, Panorama P4, Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 and JVC HA-RX700
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EnGee
KVRAF
 
3734 posts since 7 Oct, 2005, from Auckland

Postby EnGee; Wed May 17, 2017 3:58 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Frostline wrote:
EnGee wrote:2. Personally, I think the voting system is nice, but there is one flaw! Is it only internal voting between the participants? I thought it is open to all KVR members (with more than 40 posts)! So, where are the scores of the others? Or does that mean no one at all has voted from outside the participants?!

There are usually few if any that vote but did not submit a track from month to month.
Like last month, Fortune Cookie month I voted but did not submit a track. I think there were a couple folks who did this on the any commercial synth one too.
If you look at the score sheet data there will be names in the vertical left side that don't have a match across the top. Their line will be missing the darkened square that for participants is a 1 score in a darkened box where their given and received lines meet.

Oh great then! Sorry, I didn't notice. So, this point is invalid then :)
i5 & i7 Windows 10 64bit, Presonus iTwo, PX-5S, Blofeld and Yamaha HS7.
Cubase 9 Artist, S1v3 Pro, FLS Producer, Reaper, and some nice soft synths and effects.
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Frostline
KVRist
 
128 posts since 12 Aug, 2016

Postby Frostline; Wed May 17, 2017 4:29 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

wagtunes wrote:Okay, so what's an outlying vote?

With a 10 point system, you have an upper, middle and lower region

Upper Region - 8-10 points
Middle Region - 4-7 points
Lower Region - 1-3 points

The outlying votes are any votes that fall in either the upper or lower region.

So the middle region requires no explanation. I think that's pretty generous to allow a range that wide without having to explain and "justify" your vote. But if you're going to give somebody a 1 (Because you hate them) or a 10 (Because they're your friend) I feel you should justify your vote.


I like the idea of your system. Could work with current 5 point system. 1 & 5 need reasons, 2-4 don't. In fact nothing stopping anyone from voting with that method now. Just a couple extra steps to PM an entrant to explain a 1. Explaining a 5 would be a bit redundant though I think.

wagtunes wrote:

I know this isn't going to be very popular but it'll get rid of all the "vindictive" voting that I know I'm a victim of constantly. And the reason I know this is because my high marks (I do get them) come from the people who are the best at this contest, with few exceptions. When these people explain to me exactly why I received the mark I got and then I see I still get tons of 1s, I know it's nothing but vindictiveness because people here don't like me.


Eh, I've gotten 5's and 1's in the same contest many times, and looking at scores it appears other's do as well. It neither makes me think my work is grand or that people are out to get me.
Could it just be possible that what some people like in a song varies from person to person?
Could it be that there are people who just don't click with your style of music and vote it down while having no thoughts about you at all?
Maybe easy to test. Submit a track under a new account. All personal Wag's bias would be eliminated. Be interesting to see.

wagtunes wrote:This system will put an end to that shit.

Not really. In your 10 point system instead of giving everyone a 1 everyone could have gotten 4's. Would have the same basic overall effect on final outcomes.
wagtunes wrote:I'm sorry but when several people tell me my entry was the best thing I've ever done and I still get 8 1s, that's just plain bullshit.

Not necessarily. Really depends on what it is being compared to and the standards of the person doing the comparison eh?
Win10 x64, Reaper 5.XX x64, i5-3330, 8gb ram, GTX-970, UC-33, Panorama P4, Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 and JVC HA-RX700
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Frostline
KVRist
 
128 posts since 12 Aug, 2016

Postby Frostline; Wed May 17, 2017 5:25 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

] Peter:H [ wrote:
To who ever might be concerned...

I personally don't judge you, because I don't know you. Here's just some questions:
1.) Which rule did I break? Where's that rule stated?

A written rule? I don't think what you did broke one.
However there are "social niceties" or "politeness in a group of basically strangers" to consider as well. At least for some people.
The complete opposite of your vote happened once.
Someone didn't have the opportunity to give the tracks the attention they normally would during voting due to unexpected circumstances. So they gave everyone a 5.
Now the key thing here is they announced what they were going to do regarding the vote prior to the final results.
I think had you explained prior, something along the lines of "Hey, voted. Did it a bit differently than the usual. Just giving points to the tracks I think should win and giving the rest a 1 so the points I am giving my favorites are more impactful to the final result" there would have been little to any drama over this.

] Peter:H [ wrote:2.) Who was harmed?

In the grand scheme of things probably only you.
If applying your system to your tracks in the future...can see it being very easy to think "Oh, Peter only gives points to potential winners, don't think this track will win so can give it a 1 without bothering to listen. Only fair to use Peter's system on Peter's track eh?"

] Peter:H [ wrote:3.) Why is it trolling to come up with a voting scheme that clearly states my winner and neutralizes any other track because I don't care? Do I have to use patch courtesy here, to pretend that I can say which is 4 or 3 or other way around?

Some might think that not caring about the work of other constants might make them less inclined to care much about your work. It basically looks like the others are not worth the time of your consideration to bother to discern between a deserving 2 track and a deserving 4. You don't see how that might rub people the wrong way? Especially the 4's that get lumped with the deserving 1's and 2's?

] Peter:H [ wrote:4.) Why is it trolling to try to fix a in my eyes broken voting scheme? I want to vote for my top places and not come up with a PhD style descripition of a inherently complicated/broken voting scheme, which is based on no less than gut feeling and which is not better or worse than any other voting scheme that is inside the rules?

There is a difference between "trying to fix" and just "doing whatever you want".
Don't like the system, fine. Work with the other participants and the people in charge to help shape the changes you want to see.
I question rules quite often. There are rules I don't agree with. But as a participant I agree to abide by the current rules while participating or I don't participat.
I personally don't find the current system of voting all that complicated. The rules seem in place to make the process as uncomplicated as the voter wishes to make it.
] Peter:H [ wrote:5.) Are noobs have to obey to unwritten rules, that are made up by the closed circle of long time participants? What are those rules?

Although it seems highly paradoxical to write in a forum post unwritten rules I will just say personally the only rule is to try to be decent/civil to each other(at least until given justification to behave otherwise). Most other things can be worked out if that is followed.
] Peter:H [ wrote:6.) Do you realy have had all knowledge 360 degree to find a objective judgement like you pretended to give here about me? Have you asked for an exlplanation before judging?

I personally didn't jump to any public conclusion. I hoped it was a glitch. I was informed otherwise.
Now that I have more evidence it appears your actions were more of a fit of pique in rebellion against the system. That or maybe just too apathetic to bother to vote as most do. It is still a bit unclear to me what you hoped to accomplish.

] Peter:H [ wrote:Please, we don't need to discuss it here, all I give you is the questions and you just try to find the answers for yourself.

Oh so your public questions are fine but the rest of us should just zip it eh?
Nah.
Win10 x64, Reaper 5.XX x64, i5-3330, 8gb ram, GTX-970, UC-33, Panorama P4, Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 and JVC HA-RX700
574X
KVRist
 
114 posts since 25 Aug, 2016

Postby 574X; Wed May 17, 2017 5:47 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

rghvdberg wrote: "Spotify royalties for 2017-2 are in : total €0,07 :hyper: "

I can't wait to get my hands on that juicy booty! 8)
And € even! Fancy! :o
Seriously though, if we're not using USD we should use bitcoin. I know I can count on you to make it happen, Agent Rob. 8)

EnGee wrote:"Well, I have two or three points as remarks from my first participation in OSC (#98)"

Thanks for sharing, EnGee.
EnGee wrote:"I flagged those "trolls", so next time I will just give them 1 point...

I really like some people here from the participants (personality), although I gave low marks for some of them, but it was really unbiased scoring."
So you're saying we should dock points for people we dislike but not play favorites with those we do like? "Bad part of town," "one way street" kind of thing? :hihi:
SWIM wrote:"The ironic thing about the reality of the music industry itself is that successful artists (who are voted for by their fan's dollars) are often more supported for their relatable branding and persona built by their business/marketing machine, than the actual music (which is ofc homogenized by the same producers at the highest level)."

EnGee wrote:"The competition in the end is successful IMO if we look at it with a friendly view :)"

Wow, you get it. :clap: Nice.
-Mostly. There is some music involved. More on that subject later.
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EnGee
KVRAF
 
3734 posts since 7 Oct, 2005, from Auckland

Postby EnGee; Wed May 17, 2017 8:42 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

574X wrote:
EnGee wrote:"I flagged those "trolls", so next time I will just give them 1 point...

I really like some people here from the participants (personality), although I gave low marks for some of them, but it was really unbiased scoring."
So you're saying we should dock points for people we dislike but not play favorites with those we do like? "Bad part of town," "one way street" kind of thing? :hihi:

What I meant is that my scores for the participants have no relation to my opinions about or/and relations with them except in the future for two people that weren't honest in their scores or behaviours.
i5 & i7 Windows 10 64bit, Presonus iTwo, PX-5S, Blofeld and Yamaha HS7.
Cubase 9 Artist, S1v3 Pro, FLS Producer, Reaper, and some nice soft synths and effects.
574X
KVRist
 
114 posts since 25 Aug, 2016

Postby 574X; Wed May 17, 2017 9:13 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

I understand. It was a joke to lighten the mood around here. Your feedback is appreciated.

Is anyone up for having some fun synthesizing stuff? :D :party: :lol:
Let's simultaneously have an enthusiastic synthesis discussion while these master debates rage on.
I like sine waves. 8)
TrojakEW
KVRist
 
85 posts since 20 Mar, 2012

Postby TrojakEW; Wed May 17, 2017 10:11 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

10 points system was suggested some time before. It may improve voting but those are still just numbers. For me it doeas really not matter if there is 1-5 or 1-10 but if user score track by 1 and that is for sure minimum 3 pointer (in 1-5 score system) it should at least honestly explain that why he make this decision.

Example was in Digits OSC where some user put Guenon track in 2p. Even I dont like style of his track I simply have to put this in 5p. What he was able to do with this synth was reeeeaaaaally crazy. So I ask on forum why he put this track to 2p group and there was no explanation.

Not a rule but if somebody ask him why he do this then he should explain and Peter tell us why. For me thats enough. I dont judge his decision. Actually 1p for my track is in osc #98 is more realistic rating then other what I mostly get. No offense to people who put my track on 3 and 4p. But I do "hate" my track for #98 :lol: and I think it it worse track so far from all OSC I have done.

Problem in #98 was - Any synth. I hope not to see this in future because it was impossible to judge tracks. Actually not tracks but what is user able to do with synth. Someone mention in #98 thhread that Zebra wins. I do not agree with this statement because - Photonic wins.

From what I see so far in OSC threads people are too serious about voting. My reason to be here is to relax and learn at same time. So please relax a bit and pleease dont make Taron "angry". He is very nice person and It was first time I saw he little upset.

Ohh and Im really really sorry not commenting tracks on soundcloud, but as I said before in OSC threads soundcloud doesnt like me. I have tried it before but imagine that you sppend more then hour commenting on sc and when you return 90% of comments are missing. Replying on existing comnents always work for me but adding new have random rate of success :cry: .
RichardSemper
KVRist
 
373 posts since 30 Oct, 2013, from Stoke On Trent

Postby RichardSemper; Wed May 17, 2017 10:33 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

574X wrote:I like sine waves. 8)

Sine waves can be a bit dull :zzz: unless multiplied together. :singer:
I really like squares, with the edges clipped off. :wheee:
http://www.richardsemper.com/
When was the Last Time you did something for the First Time.
asi4
KVRist
 
48 posts since 22 Mar, 2016

Postby asi4; Thu May 18, 2017 4:53 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

TrojakEW wrote:Problem in #98 was - Any synth. I hope not to see this in future because it was impossible to judge tracks. Actually not tracks but what is user able to do with synth. Someone mention in #98 thhread that Zebra wins. I do not agree with this statement because - Photonic wins.


"Zebra wins" was just a joke :wink:
nickamandote
KVRist
 
371 posts since 24 Nov, 2012

Postby nickamandote; Thu May 18, 2017 7:21 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

To solve all problems once for good everyone shouldn't be able to vote for his own track at all - that means 0 points. So no matter if he gives 1 to the rest it's still more than his own. There you go problem solved now back to music :D
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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
7768 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Thu May 18, 2017 7:34 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

nickamandote wrote:To solve all problems once for good everyone shouldn't be able to vote for his own track at all - that means 0 points. So no matter if he gives 1 to the rest it's still more than his own. There you go problem solved now back to music :D


It doesn't matter what one gives himself. When BJ counts the points, he assigns 1 point for each self vote so it's immaterial.
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