Diva Vs. Real Analog

[trimph1]

[Syncretia]

BTW: I don't quite understand why people get all upity about twiddling knobs. I twiddle knobs on my midi keyboard all the time. There's this feature of software synths called "midi learn". I'm not sure if you've heard of it.

[Mutant]

BTW: I don't quite understand why people get all upity about twiddling knobs. I twiddle knobs on my midi keyboard all the time. There's this feature of software synths called "midi learn". I'm not sure if you've heard of it.

True.

But maybe it is just about the 7 bit vs analog precision...
HD-MIDI where the flying frag are you ?????

[Fritze]

BTW: I don't quite understand why people get all upity about twiddling knobs. I twiddle knobs on my midi keyboard all the time. There's this feature of software synths called "midi learn". I'm not sure if you've heard of it.

True.

But maybe it is just about the 7 bit vs analog precision...
HD-MIDI where the flying frag are you ?????

Hm, we'll see. It can be done...

[Howard]

Hm, we'll see. It can be done...

Aha!
Howard
Orchestrator at LOUSE (Legion Of U-he Sockpuppets, Europe)

[bmrzycki]

HD-MIDI where the flying frag are you ?????

14-bit resolution MIDI messages exist, it's a shame so few programs understand them. They're called RPN/NRPNs. There are 16,384 "free" NRPN messages (as opposed to the 128 in MIDI CC land) and all of them have 14-bit precision. Good luck finding a potentiometer/encoder with 14-bit discrete steps though, for either MIDI or on analog gear.

You can read more about RPNs/NRPNs here: http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm

And I wrote a program for Reaper that implements their method to convert automation curves into RPN/NRPN messages: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=42960

[damoog]

HD-MIDI where the flying frag are you ?????

14-bit resolution MIDI messages exist, it's a shame so few programs understand them. They're called RPN/NRPNs. There are 16,384 "free" NRPN messages (as opposed to the 128 in MIDI CC land) and all of them have 14-bit precision. Good luck finding a potentiometer/encoder with 14-bit discrete steps though, for either MIDI or on analog gear.

You can read more about RPNs/NRPNs here: http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm

And I wrote a program for Reaper that implements their method to convert automatio

n curves into RPN/NRPN messages: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=42960

My moog phatty has 14 bit midi precision,what is the advantage?..just the word 'midi' sounds old,lol

[Sendy]

Hm, we'll see. It can be done...

Aha!
Howard
Orchestrator at LOUSE (Legion Of U-he Sockpuppets, Europe)

That totally needs to become a long-running meme

BTW, speaking of midi and GUI resolution, I think for the most part u-he synths do a very good job of smoothing parameter changes in a way that's both transparent and "analogue feeling". Sweeping the pitch knob in Zebra by dragging a mouse to me feels as continuous and step-free as doing same on my real analogue synth. For me it's this smoothness and "analog-ness" in the literal sense - i.e. the sensation that my continuous hand/mouse movements are an exact "analog" of the pitch changes - are what creates that mental bond between me and the sound. More so than having an actual knob to twiddle, though that is preferable of course.

Over the years my mouse has become a fairly good surrogate knob

[Urs]

Well... most parameters don't fit a scheme of 128 values, others are sensitive on 0.01 steps. Thus 7 bit of control have never been sufficient for our stuff. For that reason we're going to implement a series of additions to our MIDI response that will hopefully allow for really cool results, no matter what the controller. It's a big topic.

Urs

[Syncretia]

But maybe it is just about the 7 bit vs analog precision...

Are you serious?

Are you actually claiming you can tell the difference? I wasn't even aware that there was some kind of discussion over the quality of the smoothness of moving midi parameters.

7bit = 128. Your mod wheel has a range of 0-127 as far as I know. What you're saying here is that you can actually hear the difference between a filter's cutoff set at say 86, and 87, and that even when these changes occur in quick succession (i.e. 30 times a second), you can hear the jumps from 86->87->88 etc. Are you really saying this?

Look, there's probably someone out there that claims that they can hear some stutter or something. But, I for one can say that this limitation never even crossed my mind as a problem. Until now, it baffled me as to why people would even talk about twiddling knobs on an analog synth being different to digital knobs.

Incidentally, I much prefer to digital to analog knobs anyway. I've got a TB-303 at the moment and the tiny cutoff knob on that thing is ridiculous to twiddle (despite the fact that it sounds great). If the 7bit res is a problem, you can always narrow the range via your DAW which will equate to a higher res change anyway. But, for me - things like instrument racks in Ableton make digital knobs a no brainer. I mean would it have been possible to control a parameter on two old analog synths with one value inverted in the past? No way.

Then, there's OSC. If I'm not mistaken, you could use MaxForLive to create a higher res controller with your iPhone or buy a dedicated OSC controller which has far better resolution than midi.

Still, I'm baffled that this even comes up as an issue.

[justin3am]

HD-MIDI where the flying frag are you ?????

14-bit resolution MIDI messages exist, it's a shame so few programs understand them. They're called RPN/NRPNs. There are 16,384 "free" NRPN messages (as opposed to the 128 in MIDI CC land) and all of them have 14-bit precision. Good luck finding a potentiometer/encoder with 14-bit discrete steps though, for either MIDI or on analog gear.

You can read more about RPNs/NRPNs here: http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm

With encoders, it's not a big deal, there are encoders that do more than 10000 pulses per revolution but you wouldn't want that, your hand isn't capable of getting reliable results from that kind of resolution. The issue with pots is that 16-bit ADC is too expensive to use on a MIDI controller.

A big factor to consider here is that most MIDI hardware can't handle large amounts of 14-bit data in real time. Not to mention that MIDI over USB or LAN is transferred at the same rate as MIDI via DIN cable (31.25 kBps).

[justin3am]

Dammit! I went this whole time without posting to this silly thread. Now I've gone and done it.

[Mutant]

But maybe it is just about the 7 bit vs analog precision...

Are you serious?

Are you actually claiming you can tell the difference? I wasn't even aware that there was some kind of discussion over the quality of the smoothness of moving midi parameters.

7bit = 128. Your mod wheel has a range of 0-127 as far as I know. What you're saying here is that you can actually hear the difference between a filter's cutoff set at say 86, and 87, and that even when these changes occur in quick succession (i.e. 30 times a second), you can hear the jumps from 86->87->88 etc. Are you really saying this?

Yep

But not for all controls and not in all cases of course (and not that it is some very big deal to me).

For example set your resonance to max and assign a knob to cutoff, if you can't hear a big difference between 86 and 87 then i don't know what to tell you.

The synth will most probably smooth out the change so it will sound OK, but you can't make the synth stop at half between 86 and 87.

[thecontrolcentre]

[aciddose]

14-bit resolution MIDI messages exist, it's a shame so few programs understand them. They're called LSB/MSB in the updated midi spec released years ago.

ftfy.