Tone2 Saurus Teaser - Competition - KVR Giveaway
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- KVRAF
- 2973 posts since 10 Sep, 2003 from Karlskoga, Stockholm, Sweden
For us non-sounddesigners, a synth must sound "analog" in all positions. Now i must admit i haven't tried Saurus enough (15 min) but my first experience with feedback was "wtf?!". No doubt it can be very useful as i like scratching my brain with sound (i do), but would an analog synth behave like that?
This is just speculation but it could be the answer to some of the confusion in the thread. A sound designer cares about the end result and knows how to get there. Someone like myself, and there's no doubt others in this thread, cares about the journey having the end unknown. When "traveling" this sonic road it must sound credible all the way. I go into a "high" when making sounds with synths and any distraction pulls me away from it. That's why i am sensitive about it.
If a synth is supposed to behave analog then that is what i will have in my fantasy. When i tweak Diva i can almost feel like im there having a real synth tweaking. If im tweaking Diversion or Blade, then im in a totally different mindset. It's more like im in a secret underground experimental evil laboratory using technology to reach the other realms
Using "analog" gear i travel back to 1993 (some go as far back as the 70's!).
Yes, im a very emotional and extremely emotionally driven guy
Im calm on the outside but on the inside there's always chaos and agony. If i can't follow my emotional compass there will be outbursts resulting to for instance passionate posts or worse 
I think i've been pretty laid back in this thread which is more or less a miracle considering the demo really pushing me to the edge.
(I want to get some sonic ecstasy in return after following this thread for so long. Also the cheap shots on someone i respect VERY much and who brought me a lot of joy is like poking me with a sharp and dirty stick on sore spots)
And to get it worse, add this guy who calls people a**-something for having the nerve of saying that the synth doesn't live up to the marketing and hype!
Buddha bless, deep breaths.
So, emotional guys and girls, do you agree with me on how you use the synths? Is it a journey for you like it is to me?
Ps. Thank you Himalaya for all the soundsamples! They bring my ears joy
Pdxindy that was a good example!
This is just speculation but it could be the answer to some of the confusion in the thread. A sound designer cares about the end result and knows how to get there. Someone like myself, and there's no doubt others in this thread, cares about the journey having the end unknown. When "traveling" this sonic road it must sound credible all the way. I go into a "high" when making sounds with synths and any distraction pulls me away from it. That's why i am sensitive about it.
If a synth is supposed to behave analog then that is what i will have in my fantasy. When i tweak Diva i can almost feel like im there having a real synth tweaking. If im tweaking Diversion or Blade, then im in a totally different mindset. It's more like im in a secret underground experimental evil laboratory using technology to reach the other realms
Using "analog" gear i travel back to 1993 (some go as far back as the 70's!).
Yes, im a very emotional and extremely emotionally driven guy
Im calm on the outside but on the inside there's always chaos and agony. If i can't follow my emotional compass there will be outbursts resulting to for instance passionate posts or worse I think i've been pretty laid back in this thread which is more or less a miracle considering the demo really pushing me to the edge.
(I want to get some sonic ecstasy in return after following this thread for so long. Also the cheap shots on someone i respect VERY much and who brought me a lot of joy is like poking me with a sharp and dirty stick on sore spots)
And to get it worse, add this guy who calls people a**-something for having the nerve of saying that the synth doesn't live up to the marketing and hype!
Buddha bless, deep breaths.
So, emotional guys and girls, do you agree with me on how you use the synths? Is it a journey for you like it is to me?
Ps. Thank you Himalaya for all the soundsamples! They bring my ears joy
Pdxindy that was a good example!
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- KVRist
- 440 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from Munich / Bavaria / Germany
I didn't find time to take part in this discussion much, since we focused on doing support for our customers during the last days.
I'm very embrassed about the large amount of missinformation and half-knowledge within this thread.
Some people still have not realized that also analog synths differ a lot in sound.
My Juno for example has a completely different sound than my Mopho, Nanozwerg or Andromeda.
Saurus wasn't designed to be a replica of the Moog or whatever, it was designed to sound like a very good analog synth combined with modern features like a flexible mod matrix. And that's exaclty the way it is advertized. I'd describe the basic overall sound as 'fat, warm and clean'. But it can also sound 'dark, noisy, saturated an muffled'. What it does (analog/modern) depends on the amount of distortion, input volume to the filter, the filter soft button, drift, tone, free running oscs and the playmode.
Saurus is very versatile. It can be programmed to do also very modern sounds. Wheater it sounds - modern or vintage - depends on what the sound designer does. In the factory patches and mp3 demos we included both styles.
It does not make sense nor is it fair to compare Saurus to DIVA since we did not take this sythesizer plugin as reference for our analog models and measurements. If you think that you must do comparisons with Saurus for analog authenticity please use real analog hardware and not another plugin.
We did also not want to limit Saurus to analog sounds only. Saurus provides a much larger sonic range and does a excellent job on modern music.
Saurus can sound like many other analog synths or just sounds like Saurus. It's not a replica of a specific synth and was never advertized as that.
If someone would ask me 'which analog synths can do some of the sounds that Saurus can do' i'd answer the Prophet, the Alpha Juno, the MS20 and the Andromeda.
Saurus was designed to be:
- A workhorse for music production
- Easy to use and learn
- Flexible
- Priced below Eur 100
- Combine the advantages of analog synths and modern technology
- Fun to use
- Low CPU and work also on older computers
Q: How much does Saurus cost?
A: We tried to keep the price as low as possible and provide a excellent value for money. Saurus costs 99 Eur incuding VAT.
Q: How many sounds does Saurus have?
A: Saurus ships with 563 selected presets from 21 top sound designers
Q: How many instances of Saurus can i run at the same time?
A: It depends on the complexity of the patch and the number of voices that you play. On my I7 i am able to run a song with 30 Saurus instances without getting audio dropouts.
Q: Will there be additonal soundsets?
A: Yes. We plan to release additional soundsets within the next months. They will be reasonably priced, come with a comfortable installer and integarte to the user interface.
Q: Is Saurus stable? Does it have bugs?
A: A very large number of people have bought Saurus. So far there have been no real problems or bugs. We do provide free udpdates, support and fixes if problems should occur.
Q: Will you expand the 10-minute demo limit?
A: We will discuss this for the next update. You can extend your demo time easily be reloading the plugin.
Q: Why does the Saurus sawtooth OSC look asymetric and have a belly?
A: An analog saw oscillator frequently consists of a transistor based impulse generator and a 6db leaky integrator. Since the working point of the transitor is above 0 volt, the DC offset of the transistor has removed by using a leaky integrator instead of an integrator. Urs has commented this behaviour of Saurus as a 'weakness', which is not true. In fact it's a feature and shows how much love to detail we have spent into an accurate emulation. We use a similar phase response and integrator like the Alpha Juno. That's why Saurus does great job on emulating hoovers and sounds a bit muffled when you use a lot of distortion.
Q: Are the fiters of Saurus and ElectraX the same?
A: No. Saurus models a Chamberlain and a Butterworth filter, while the models in ElectraX are related to the Leapfrog, the 303 and the Biquad.
Q: Are the OSCs of Saurus and ElectraX the same?
A: No. They are completely differet beasts. ElectraX is wavetable based, Saurus is analog modelling. That's why they sound and behave in a different way.
Q: Is Saurus a subset of ElectraX?
A: No. All modules except the Chorus have been completely redesigned and sound different.
Q: Does Saurus have a Moog filter?
A: No. An early alpha contained it, but in the beta it was replaced with the Butterworth, because it sounded better. The 24 dB filter in the GUI is labeled wrongly, because i forgot to replace the old 'Moog' text with 'Butterworth'. The wrong label has no effect on the functionality or the sound of the plugin. It will of course be fixed in the next update. Sorry about this confusion.
Q: What filters does Saurus have?
A: Saurus models a 12 dB Chamberlain and a 24 dB Butterworth filter. The filters have a 0-delay. Unlike the false claims of one of the sound designers from Urs there is also a 0-delay in the feedback path. Beside of tha Urs claimed that the 0-delay technology that we use would be nothing new and would 'exist since years'. This is also a false statement. Technically we did a similar, but CPU-wise more efficient approach than he did. A further advantage of our very precise model is that the filter sound does not differ if you change the quality of samplerate setting.
Our filter is very precise. You can play melodies when you route key to cutoff and turn on the resonance.
Q: Does Saurus sound like a virus?
A: Saurus is very flexible. It can sound like a very good VA. However it is not a replica of the Virus.
Q: The unison in Saurus sounds very nice - like my hardware synth. How did you do that?
A: Since this is a public forum which everyone can read we can't tell secrets here. Just enjoy it.
I'm very embrassed about the large amount of missinformation and half-knowledge within this thread.
Some people still have not realized that also analog synths differ a lot in sound.
My Juno for example has a completely different sound than my Mopho, Nanozwerg or Andromeda.
Saurus wasn't designed to be a replica of the Moog or whatever, it was designed to sound like a very good analog synth combined with modern features like a flexible mod matrix. And that's exaclty the way it is advertized. I'd describe the basic overall sound as 'fat, warm and clean'. But it can also sound 'dark, noisy, saturated an muffled'. What it does (analog/modern) depends on the amount of distortion, input volume to the filter, the filter soft button, drift, tone, free running oscs and the playmode.
Saurus is very versatile. It can be programmed to do also very modern sounds. Wheater it sounds - modern or vintage - depends on what the sound designer does. In the factory patches and mp3 demos we included both styles.
It does not make sense nor is it fair to compare Saurus to DIVA since we did not take this sythesizer plugin as reference for our analog models and measurements. If you think that you must do comparisons with Saurus for analog authenticity please use real analog hardware and not another plugin.
We did also not want to limit Saurus to analog sounds only. Saurus provides a much larger sonic range and does a excellent job on modern music.
Saurus can sound like many other analog synths or just sounds like Saurus. It's not a replica of a specific synth and was never advertized as that.
If someone would ask me 'which analog synths can do some of the sounds that Saurus can do' i'd answer the Prophet, the Alpha Juno, the MS20 and the Andromeda.
Saurus was designed to be:
- A workhorse for music production
- Easy to use and learn
- Flexible
- Priced below Eur 100
- Combine the advantages of analog synths and modern technology
- Fun to use
- Low CPU and work also on older computers
Q: How much does Saurus cost?
A: We tried to keep the price as low as possible and provide a excellent value for money. Saurus costs 99 Eur incuding VAT.
Q: How many sounds does Saurus have?
A: Saurus ships with 563 selected presets from 21 top sound designers
Q: How many instances of Saurus can i run at the same time?
A: It depends on the complexity of the patch and the number of voices that you play. On my I7 i am able to run a song with 30 Saurus instances without getting audio dropouts.
Q: Will there be additonal soundsets?
A: Yes. We plan to release additional soundsets within the next months. They will be reasonably priced, come with a comfortable installer and integarte to the user interface.
Q: Is Saurus stable? Does it have bugs?
A: A very large number of people have bought Saurus. So far there have been no real problems or bugs. We do provide free udpdates, support and fixes if problems should occur.
Q: Will you expand the 10-minute demo limit?
A: We will discuss this for the next update. You can extend your demo time easily be reloading the plugin.
Q: Why does the Saurus sawtooth OSC look asymetric and have a belly?
A: An analog saw oscillator frequently consists of a transistor based impulse generator and a 6db leaky integrator. Since the working point of the transitor is above 0 volt, the DC offset of the transistor has removed by using a leaky integrator instead of an integrator. Urs has commented this behaviour of Saurus as a 'weakness', which is not true. In fact it's a feature and shows how much love to detail we have spent into an accurate emulation. We use a similar phase response and integrator like the Alpha Juno. That's why Saurus does great job on emulating hoovers and sounds a bit muffled when you use a lot of distortion.
Q: Are the fiters of Saurus and ElectraX the same?
A: No. Saurus models a Chamberlain and a Butterworth filter, while the models in ElectraX are related to the Leapfrog, the 303 and the Biquad.
Q: Are the OSCs of Saurus and ElectraX the same?
A: No. They are completely differet beasts. ElectraX is wavetable based, Saurus is analog modelling. That's why they sound and behave in a different way.
Q: Is Saurus a subset of ElectraX?
A: No. All modules except the Chorus have been completely redesigned and sound different.
Q: Does Saurus have a Moog filter?
A: No. An early alpha contained it, but in the beta it was replaced with the Butterworth, because it sounded better. The 24 dB filter in the GUI is labeled wrongly, because i forgot to replace the old 'Moog' text with 'Butterworth'. The wrong label has no effect on the functionality or the sound of the plugin. It will of course be fixed in the next update. Sorry about this confusion.
Q: What filters does Saurus have?
A: Saurus models a 12 dB Chamberlain and a 24 dB Butterworth filter. The filters have a 0-delay. Unlike the false claims of one of the sound designers from Urs there is also a 0-delay in the feedback path. Beside of tha Urs claimed that the 0-delay technology that we use would be nothing new and would 'exist since years'. This is also a false statement. Technically we did a similar, but CPU-wise more efficient approach than he did. A further advantage of our very precise model is that the filter sound does not differ if you change the quality of samplerate setting.
Our filter is very precise. You can play melodies when you route key to cutoff and turn on the resonance.
Q: Does Saurus sound like a virus?
A: Saurus is very flexible. It can sound like a very good VA. However it is not a replica of the Virus.
Q: The unison in Saurus sounds very nice - like my hardware synth. How did you do that?
A: Since this is a public forum which everyone can read we can't tell secrets here. Just enjoy it.
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- KVRian
- 622 posts since 14 Jun, 2006 from Finland
I personally have to restart Reaper each time the 10 minute time ends. Opening Saurus without restarting reaper does not work.
I don't know if this is a problem with your demo or if it's Reapers fault but it's really hard to demo this product this way.
I don't know if this is a problem with your demo or if it's Reapers fault but it's really hard to demo this product this way.
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- KVRist
- 440 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from Munich / Bavaria / Germany
Opening and closing in Reaper just closes the GUI. It does not reload the plugin. You must remove it.filter303 wrote:I personally have to restart Reaper each time the 10 minute time ends. Opening Saurus without restarting reaper does not work.
I don't know if this is a problem with your demo or if it's Reapers fault but it's really hard to demo this product this way.
As an anternative you can use the Saurus standalone for evaluation.
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- KVRAF
- 12522 posts since 21 Mar, 2008 from Hannover, Germany
Hi Markus,Markus from Tone2.com wrote:
Saurus is very versatile. It can be programmed to do also very modern sounds. Wheater it sounds - modern or vintage - depends on what the sound designer does. In the factory patches and mp3 demos we included both styles.
It does not make sense nor is it fair to compare Saurus to DIVA since we did not take this sythesizer plugin as reference for our analog models and measurements. If you think that you must do comparisons with Saurus for analog authenticity please use real analog hardware and not another plugin.
Saurus was desi
first i have to congratulate you for the release of Saurus. I got the full version after playing around 45 minutes with the demo and creating one of my own presets with it. I indeed thing it's very versatile and a workhorse kind of synth.
I understand your comment about the comparison with Diva but somehow this was an obvious comparison as everybody seems to talk about Diva in those days (and there were some strange hints to a "competing product" where many people thought this is Diva you're talking about).
My own comparisons with Diva (in fact it was only one) was to show that the "analog side" of Saurus is not too far away from it. I found that with the use of an EQ (my example was at 110 Hz) it could sounds even better (IMO of course).
I agree that Saurus and Diva were built for different purposes and that Saurus should be judged on it's own sound. Personally i like that sound (and the possibilities that the OSC section offers) like it is.
I hope that this post will be my last "Saurus vs Diva" comment here.
I'll hopefully find the time to do a full soundbank for Saurus in the future. I alreday made a few presets with it now.
Best wishes,
Ingo
Last edited by Ingonator on Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1
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- u-he
- 28063 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
When? Where?Markus from Tone2.com wrote:Urs has commented this behaviour of Saurus as a 'weakness'
Okay, if you think of the capacitor between oscillator and filter as a part of the oscillator, then, yes, you get that belly. But the circuit you post on your website does to my best knowledge not do that.
Aha. All I ever said was that filters without latency have been used for years. You should be a bit more clear about the things you post, then there will be no confusion. It is "0-delay feedback" or "zero feedback delay" or "delay less feedback", but NEVER just "0-delay filters" if you are referring to the elimination of the unit delay in the feedback path.Markus from Tone2.com wrote:Beside of that Urs claimed that the 0-delay technology that we use would be nothing new and would 'exist since years'.
LOL, Markus, you can claim whatever you want, but you shouldn't put words in my mouth.
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- KVRist
- 440 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from Munich / Bavaria / Germany
Hello Ingo,
first we want to say a big THANK YOU for buying Saurus and supporting our work.
You're a talented sound designer. Unlike many people with half-knowledge you really seem to know how synthesizers work. I guess it's because you're very educated and know a lot about physics.
We are really looking forward to your sounds! Keep up the good work!
Cheers!
first we want to say a big THANK YOU for buying Saurus and supporting our work.
You're a talented sound designer. Unlike many people with half-knowledge you really seem to know how synthesizers work. I guess it's because you're very educated and know a lot about physics.
We are really looking forward to your sounds! Keep up the good work!
Cheers!
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- u-he
- 28063 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Please enlighten me, what technology exactly did we use? You seem to know? You may post source code, pseudo code or anything else that supports your claim. This may also help to enlighten us as to how you obviously come to the conclusion that our software is badly optimised.Markus from Tone2.com wrote:Technically we did a similar, but CPU-wise more efficient approach than he did. A further advantage of our very precise model is that the filter sound does not differ if you change the quality of samplerate setting.
In all seriousness, I never knew what filters *you* used, and never said so. I don't care. All I think is that non-linearities in the feedback path require a bit more oversampling for being called "high-end quality". But that would cost more cpu, ok.
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- KVRAF
- 12522 posts since 21 Mar, 2008 from Hannover, Germany
Hi Markus,Markus from Tone2.com wrote:Hello Ingo,
first we want to say a big THANK YOU for buying Saurus and supporting our work.
You're a talented sound designer. Unlike many people with half-knowledge you really seem to know how synthesizers work. I guess it's because you're very educated and know a lot about physics.
We are really looking forward to your sounds! Keep up the good work!
Cheers!
many thanks for your kind words.
From tomorrow on i have to work again in my day job as a physics teacher (originally i got a PhD/Dr. in Chemistry) as the easter holidays are over so i'll have less time for sound design until the summer holidays. Anyway i hope to get more routine in that job soon so i could use more of my free time for sound design.
Currently i am working on sounds for e.g. Synthmaster 2.5, Saurus, Waldorf Largo (maybe i'll switch to the Blofeld with those sounds soon) and a little bit on the Curve 2 public Beta. I also try to finish a bank for the Moog Slim Phatty i am working on and which is mostly done.
There could also be another beta test for Waldorf soon. Based on the available time those projects should be more than enough for the upcoming months.
Best wishes,
Ingo
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1
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- KVRAF
- 5813 posts since 17 Aug, 2004 from Berlin, Germany
Hey Markus, nice to see you giving some answers.
Hopefully you can rethink the demo limitations for the next update.
10min is a short time and eventually for many users the show-stopper to dive deeper into the details and find some love and "must have" for Saurus. To be honest, I have uninstalled the demo after a short time because it was so annoying and completely destroyed my interest to buy it.
Hopefully you can rethink the demo limitations for the next update.
10min is a short time and eventually for many users the show-stopper to dive deeper into the details and find some love and "must have" for Saurus. To be honest, I have uninstalled the demo after a short time because it was so annoying and completely destroyed my interest to buy it.
| Links
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- KVRAF
- 5234 posts since 25 Feb, 2008
Markus from Tone2.com wrote:It does not make sense nor is it fair to compare Saurus to DIVA
Technically we did a similar, but CPU-wise more efficient approach than [Urs] did. A further advantage of our very precise model [...]
hmm...Unlike competing products we have taken a lot of effort to keep the CPU as low as possible without lowering the sound quality.
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- KVRAF
- 3879 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
Re: Demo time restriction.
Not only is the restriction an unnecessary hassle, the plugin also refuses to revert to an "init" state. It is well-nigh impossible to judge it on that basis. Presets drenched in reverb have never sold a synth to me, and I never audition them. I have to WORK with it in order to assess it. This is currently impossible with he demo. "Simply" reloading it, har har *slap thighs in merriment*.
Not only is the restriction an unnecessary hassle, the plugin also refuses to revert to an "init" state. It is well-nigh impossible to judge it on that basis. Presets drenched in reverb have never sold a synth to me, and I never audition them. I have to WORK with it in order to assess it. This is currently impossible with he demo. "Simply" reloading it, har har *slap thighs in merriment*.
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- KVRist
- 440 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from Munich / Bavaria / Germany
@Urs:
I ve tried to call you on the phone yesterday. There is something serious about that we should talk. I mainly refer to a business relatioship on a professional level. Yesterday I wasn't able to talk to you, because there was only an answering machine. So please call me because i want to avoid a mud war in the public.
Beside of that we think that it's time for you to move on, since this thread is about Saurus and not about your products or for the purpose of advertizing your products.
We do not have to give technical details nor post source codes of our products here. If you are interested in our technology we will offer you fair licensing conditions.
I've sent you a PM with my phone numer. So please call me and we'll find a solution.
I ve tried to call you on the phone yesterday. There is something serious about that we should talk. I mainly refer to a business relatioship on a professional level. Yesterday I wasn't able to talk to you, because there was only an answering machine. So please call me because i want to avoid a mud war in the public.
Beside of that we think that it's time for you to move on, since this thread is about Saurus and not about your products or for the purpose of advertizing your products.
We do not have to give technical details nor post source codes of our products here. If you are interested in our technology we will offer you fair licensing conditions.
I've sent you a PM with my phone numer. So please call me and we'll find a solution.
