Are we seeing the decline of the plug-in industry?

[schnapsglas]

Oh yes, to get on the topic. We were talking about Waves, right?

I think it is maturing. Since software can be looked at as substitution for hardware counterparts, it seemed right to charge same amount. Say, SPL Vitalizer for $1500. But production is dirt cheap now, and audio industry is always a funny one, where ultimately it comes down to what we think works best.

We hit dead end when it comes to emulation. If it is similar enough there is no reason nolt to treat plugins as simple software and charge for labour.

I wonder what will happen, as coding SPL Vitalizer and distributing it is certainly not over $500, yet it is supposed to replace it. There will always be people claiming the difference between plugin and hardware, but the gap in price is growing.

This is all with the long tail, where everyone can now produce music. Not sure if these people go for UAD Massive Passive or their DAW EQ, but it is somewhere in the middle. I think it's time for indie developers to establish their brand and make a lot.

I am not worried about the plugin industry, it will be sections of the hardware industry first.

[Meffy]

I haven't cracked anything in my life...

I'm sure you and other people posting in the thread are fine. Just sayin'. Anyway, carry on however.

[DuX]

Imagine having a client with a 100 plugins that require A/R authorisation like mine has and it all just becomes insane. It feels like almost he was punished for using legal software, really.

Really, a client with 100 plugins bought AT THE SAME TIME?? I've never bought 100 plugins AT THE SAME TIME, I maybe buy some plugins a month, but not more. Where do you work? Are there loads of rich guys who buy everything?

After a fresh system install, I believe that's what he's referring to.

Errrr, yes.

Regarding plugins, there is not so much difference nowadays betweeen the plugins, but we still perceive the difference as big as it used to be in the hardware days. Also, the difference between the plugins that imitate the hardware and its hardware counterparts is solely in the I/O [more or less, depending on the quality of emulation]. An emulation will never sound the same if it doesn't emulate the input/output, and the electronics faults, instabilities, noise, etc.

[schnapsglas]

Regarding plugins, there is not so much difference nowadays betweeen the plugins, but we still perceive the difference as big as it used to be in the hardware days. Also, the difference between the plugins that imitate the hardware and its hardware counterparts is solely in the I/O [more or less, depending on the quality of emulation]. An emulation will never sound the same if it doesn't emulate the input/output, and the electronics faults, instabilities, noise, etc.

Not sure if I speak for everyone here, but I suspect we are beginning to think we maybe don't want that detail in emulation. Lot of my arguments are based on that. If we have choice between two hardware units, one with I/O peculiarities and electronic faults vs a clean one, we would choose the latter. Also with DSP the possibilities are endless. We could emulate each electron if we have to (not that we want to), but we can build things we couldn't build before, with just a chip inside.

Once we have saturation down, it will be just AD/DA, good monitoring, and controllers. Oh right, and microphones for people who record actual instruments. But there will be segments of the hardware market that cannot justify their price.

[DuX]

I use both plugins and hardware, and I must say that I use hardware precisely because of the I/O and instabilities, nothing else. These make mixing easier and sound just nice, in my experience. It's just harder and more complicated to achieve that sound solely with the plugins, but I'm not saying it's impossible, or even desirable. I just like analog "dirt". Some of the plugins I have nowadays, sound even better to my ears than hardware, to tell the truth.

So I have no doubts, that plugins will nail the analog sound quite perfectly at some point. It's just inevitable. So there will be a choice: clean or dirty. Well, there is a choice now already. Good hardware is not actually so expensive, and you only need a piece or two, so you can experience and compare them yourself.

[Urs]

No worries, I'm not giving away anything. I'm quite sure that even if we open sourced our solution, it would be difficult to crack.

Back ot

[SadPuppyBlues]

The human race is nothing more than a temporary bacteria living on the parts of the earth's crust that just happen to be protruding above the water. We don't own shit.

The technological singularity would like a word with you, sir.

We're possibly in the middle of signing a contract that gives us full ownership of the entire universe.

[Tricky-Loops]

If we have choice between two hardware units, one with I/O peculiarities and electronic faults vs a clean one, we would choose the latter.

And that's one of the strangest things in mankind. People always have tried to eliminate all noises in music production since the beginning of instrument construction just to see (now!) that it sounds boring without noise. Nowadays we have to add artificial noise because the plugins sound too clean or we try to emulate irregularities of hardware outputs. 30 years ago nobody would have come to the idea to emulate noise, they would have tried to ELIMINATE the noise...

[fluffy_little_something]

Yeah, you don't know what you have until it's gone I don't think 10cc's I'm not in love would sound the way it does if it had been recorded in a DAW

[Delfinoverde]

No worries, I'm not giving away anything. I'm quite sure that even if we open sourced our solution, it would be difficult to crack.

Back ot

I wouldn't be so sure about it....
You have to know that some crackers are real geniuses and some are even better than 3 software developers/engineers put together! Some of them already work for developers.

The plug-in Industry will not decline because of cracks - but because of the horrible high prices. In the end they're just selling clones of a software.

[fluffy_little_something]

I don't think it is that easy. While I do not like Diva, it certainly is good and the developer(s) must have spend endless hours on programming it. If a developer does that for a living, they need a certain turnaround and revenue to keep going. It's not like with putting together a SE synth, which you can do as a hobby when you get home from work.

If a professional plugin developer has colleagues, every one of them means they have to considerably increase the number of licenses sold. In the case of U-he, I assume they have to sell dozens of licenses per month. While it is correct that of course a software license is just a copy of the original and, being intangible, has no material value as such, the value comes completely from the time and effort invested. It is an extreme case of a tendency that can also be seen with handicraft. Although materially speaking a handicraft product might not be worth more than a boring factory-made alternative, it may cost 10x as much simply because of the time and effort the artist put into it.

Unfortunately, unlike with public companies plugin development is little transparent in terms of business data. We don't know the turnaround and revenue of a plugin developer, how many people they employ etc. So it is hard to tell whether or not a developer charges too much or too little for their stuff.

[Urs]

You have to know that some crackers are real geniuses and some are even better than 3 software developers/engineers put together! Some of them already work for developers.

Nah, the genius part is an urban legend, the only genius cracker I know died in 2009. They're mainly bored people who can't work out high-grade CrackMes and thus refrain fom that to cracking easier things - such as audio software with sloppy protection.

It didn't take a genius to crack stuff on a C64, but it takes way more than being a genius to fully understand today's software in binary form. It takes tools like IDA Pro, and even a bored script kiddie can crack most of the stuff out there. Here comes the point: IDA Pro is useless for the copy protection scheme we chose. I doubt they even understand what's happening.

That said, with the voice of an upset child: "Our copy protection is genius itself - it's always one better than any cracker".

We have great reports from other developers who have implemented those ideas (they're not just mine). Cracker Teams have given up because their "fame" was based only on temporarily unlocked demo restrictions.

Thus I think, if every developer abandoned the stupid myth of "you can't prevent it - crackers are coding gods" and upped his protection just a little bit, everyone would profit - except for freetards. Those 20% of extra revenue can be spent on improving software rather than sessions and anti-depressants.

[Urs]

Unfortunately, unlike with public companies plugin development is little transparent in terms of business data. We don't know the turnaround and revenue of a plugin developer, how many people they employ etc. So it is hard to tell whether or not a developer charges too much or too little for their stuff.

u-he has 5 employees and an average of 2 freelancers at any time, plus a bunch of contact services (cleaners, bookkeepers). We advertise in British Magazines, on Google and on Facebook. We do a trade show a year. We run a studio with top notch vintage gear. Our monthly costs sum up around 30000€, that's about 360000€ annually, to which we need to add other expenses (hardware, software, stuff). Our 2012 revenues were slightly beyond half a million Euros - thanks to buyers of Diva and The Dark Zebra. After costs and taxes, I think we have made a profit somewhere in the region of 10000-30000 Euros. Which is great, but not brilliant.

20% of our revenues are generated from "expired demo versions". If that factor dies because of a perfect crack, then we have to cut back massively.

[KBSoundSmith]

No worries, I'm not giving away anything. I'm quite sure that even if we open sourced our solution, it would be difficult to crack.

Back ot

I wouldn't be so sure about it....
You have to know that some crackers are real geniuses and some are even better than 3 software developers/engineers put together! Some of them already work for developers.

The plug-in Industry will not decline because of cracks - but because of the horrible high prices. In the end they're just selling clones of a software.

I have to disagree with you pretty strongly--the prices for plug-ins are NOT horrible. Frankly, with the capabilities of some of these plug-ins compared to hardware equivalents, developers are by comparison giving their merchandise away for free (and yes, even from a hobbyist's perspective).

As for selling "clones" of software--WTF do you think software is, and how do you think it should be distributed? Are developers supposed to make everyone a custom copy and then ship it out on gilded CDs with your named etched on every surface?

The real problem the plug-in industry is suffering is from a bunch of ass-hole pirates and spoiled brats who feel entitled to have everything for free, who have the nerve to be self-righteous and proud about it, as if they were doing the world a favor, rather than realize what hideous and loathsome parasites they are.

[Nokenoku]

The real problem the plug-in industry is suffering is from a bunch of ass-hole pirates ...

I have to disagree.

If the "plugin-industry" even has a problem, than it's that there might be some kind of market saturation.
I mean, we already have loads of great synths, EQs, compressors, reverbs, etc. ... and some of those plugins are even freeware or at least not really expensive.

If you want to sell a new plugin, you have to make sure, that it actually offers something new/better than the competition (or at least you have to make people think it's that way).