I never understood why anyone would be asking for virtual workstation VSTs when a DAW gives you total freedom to mix and match 3rd party Softsynths. Latency and hardware reliablility may be the only 2 benfits over a PC based DAW. Virtually every type of systhesis is at our disposal in 2013.AdmiralQuality wrote:A host (or entire DAW) is a better analogy for a hardware workstation than any single plug-in is. Except that hardware workstations don't (as far as I know) allow you to plug third-party processes into them, so they're ultimately more limited.
What VST(s) as allround sound module? (piano/strings/brass HW replacement with synth function)
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- KVRAF
- 5193 posts since 6 May, 2002
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AdmiralQuality AdmiralQuality https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=83902
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- 6657 posts since 10 Oct, 2005 from Toronto, Canada
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- KVRian
- 1179 posts since 2 Jan, 2004 from England
Plenty of people want to do that. It's what stands the Motif out from the crowd. Software in a box is one thing, but the Yamaha software is proprietary, and no soft synth has the depth or breadth of those (almost auto-accompany) MIDI based features. You could get close with Cthulu or some K5 scripting, but you need the key recognition to perform flawlessly aswell. If all a software user wants is 16 channels of decent instruments for multitracking, then my advice would be to simply buy Kontakt and be done. Don't even need the DAW to set keyzones.AdmiralQuality wrote:Ug, for those who want to do that.danbroad wrote:It's not just a case of splitting some sounds across the keyzones. The Motif's smart arpeggios and chord recognition algorithms are still unmatched, and this means you can walk a double bass in the correct key, at the same time as drumming with fills, at the same time as strumming a rhythm guitar in the correct key, whilst playing a lead piano etc etc. All with two hands.
Anyway, there's no conceptual reason why a plug-in couldn't provide that same capability. A Motif is only ever going to be a Motif. A DAW can potentially be anything.
Concept is one thing, delivery another. Yamaha didn't even see fit to grant Halion Sonic with the Motif's knowhow.10 years since my first software plug (and, similarly, my first Motif) and there's still no direct comparison.
Last edited by danbroad on Thu May 23, 2013 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AdmiralQuality AdmiralQuality https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=83902
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- 6657 posts since 10 Oct, 2005 from Toronto, Canada
All commercial software is proprietary. So?danbroad wrote: Plenty of people want to do that. It's what stands the Motif out from the crowd. Software in a box is one thing, but the Yamaha software is proprietary, and no
A Motif IS "software in a box". So is a DAW. The difference is, with a DAW you have a choice of different authors and vendors of the software.
- KVRAF
- 12522 posts since 21 Mar, 2008 from Hannover, Germany
I guess it makes no sense to discuss why hardware workstations still have their place like the software synths have nowadays. Those discussions lead to no results except trouble usually.AdmiralQuality wrote:A Motif IS a softsynth. There's a computer in that box, nothing else.
The Motif is a computer indeed but a highly specialized and optimized one.
Anyway reproducing ALL features and sounds of the Motif is not an easy task IMO.
And even if it is possible it will not be very cheap, even more if you take the cost for the hardware (e.g. decent MIDI keyboard, notebook, audio interface etc.) into account.
You will at least need a decent DAW software and a few high quality softsynths for only replacing the software part.
Not to forget that the Motif has one of the biggest collections of 3rd party soundsets (+ samples).
I got my Motif ES 7 since before is used softsynths and even now after owning and using tons of softsynths the Motif is still not obsolete., also based on the fact i got many soundset with tons of sounds + samples for it.
Another point is that along the tons of factory sounds there are many "bread & butter" sounds or sounds that "just work".
Ingo
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
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AdmiralQuality AdmiralQuality https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=83902
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- 6657 posts since 10 Oct, 2005 from Toronto, Canada
I was only trying to reply to the question in the topic. Plug-ins do not equate well to hardware workstations. DAWs DO.Ingonator wrote:I guess it makes no sense to discuss why hardware workstations still have their place like the software synths have nowadays. Those discussions lead to no results except trouble usually.AdmiralQuality wrote:A Motif IS a softsynth. There's a computer in that box, nothing else.
On the plus side for hardware, they don't take long to boot up, have few moving parts or fans to break. Usually won't become mis-configured.
On the negative side, the quality of their sound is usually inferior. (Of course this depends on the software we're comparing to, but try to get a convincing Hammond organ on a Motif, just for one example.) They're not 24 bit. Who knows what the sample rate is. Etc...
- KVRAF
- 25315 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
danbroad wrote:Plenty of people want to do that. It's what stands the Motif out from the crowd. Software in a box is one thing, but the Yamaha software is proprietary, and no soft synth has the depth or breadth of those (almost auto-accompany) MIDI based features. You could get close with Cthulu or some K5 scripting, but you need the key recognition to perform flawlessly aswell. If all a software user wants is 16 channels of decent instruments for multitracking, then my advice would be to simply buy Kontakt and be done. Don't even need the DAW to set keyzones.AdmiralQuality wrote:Ug, for those who want to do that.danbroad wrote:It's not just a case of splitting some sounds across the keyzones. The Motif's smart arpeggios and chord recognition algorithms are still unmatched, and this means you can walk a double bass in the correct key, at the same time as drumming with fills, at the same time as strumming a rhythm guitar in the correct key, whilst playing a lead piano etc etc. All with two hands.
Anyway, there's no conceptual reason why a plug-in couldn't provide that same capability. A Motif is only ever going to be a Motif. A DAW can potentially be anything.
Concept is one thing, delivery another. Yamaha didn't even see fit to grant Halion Sonic with the Motif's knowhow.10 years since my first software plug (and, similarly, my first Motif) and there's still no direct comparison.
Yeah, I don't think there is much auto-accompaniment software... if you are after that particular thing... I rarely hear anyone asking for something similar so I question whether there is much of a market for it
You can a lot of stuff with existing tools as far as making clever arpeggiated and layered presets
- KVRAF
- 12522 posts since 21 Mar, 2008 from Hannover, Germany
I got this bank for example:AdmiralQuality wrote: On the negative side, the quality of their sound is usually inferior. (Of course this depends on the software we're comparing to, but try to get a convincing Hammond organ on a Motif, just for one example.)
http://shop.motifator.com/index.php/voi ... -bank.html
It's based on Motif factory samples.
FWIW i also got the GSI VB-3 plugin.
Ingo
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
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AdmiralQuality AdmiralQuality https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=83902
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- 6657 posts since 10 Oct, 2005 from Toronto, Canada
Don't get me started on what's lacking about that. A typical ROMpler can't do a tonewheel organ correctly. You need to simulate it. I could type for pages about why, but let's keep this thread on topic.Ingonator wrote:I got this bank for example:AdmiralQuality wrote: On the negative side, the quality of their sound is usually inferior. (Of course this depends on the software we're comparing to, but try to get a convincing Hammond organ on a Motif, just for one example.)
http://shop.motifator.com/index.php/voi ... -bank.html
It's based on Motif factory samples.
FWIW i also got the GSI VB-3 plugin.
Ingo
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- KVRAF
- 5620 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium
You use the EX5, not the Motif...so check out Halion Sonic. It's even supported by Yamaha with people who worked on the Motif. Halion Sonic sounds great, has all the features you need for layering, splitting etc. It has a very comprehensive phrase/arp generator and its VA engine is superb. A complete package as far as I am concerned.godly wrote:job on traditional sounds. But I'm still looking on ways to replace my Yamaha EX5 setup with multi layered and split patches.
Is there any plugin that does a good job in this?
- KVRAF
- 12522 posts since 21 Mar, 2008 from Hannover, Germany
http://www.vintagesynth.com/yamaha/ex5.phpelectro wrote:EX5 is one of the stronger Hardware synths without any serious softsynth equivalent. Doesn't EX5 have VL synthesis built in?
Ingo
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
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- KVRian
- 1056 posts since 28 Dec, 2004
Woow i just fall in love with Yamaha EX5!
What a synth and sounds!
What a synth and sounds!
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- KVRAF
- 4907 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
I have a snarky comment to make that I was going to keep quiet, but what the heck here it goes:danbroad wrote:There is no soft synth that can do what a Yamaha Motif does. Sure, there are more realistic sounds out of Kontakt etc, but for four-part, smart-chordal/smart key, auto-generative stuff that the Motif is famous for, nothing exists. Don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. It's so much more than a simple MIDI split setup on the keyboard.
There is no soft synth as confusing as the Motif manual and user interface.
I swear Yamaha hired space aliens to write the original Motif manual. At my previous employer, I was responsible for designing the sounds of various audible warning signals for an automotive company. (Listen to the doors open, keys in ignition warning signal in a BMW 5 or 7 series, and you'll hear a great example of an alerting, but not irritating audio warning signal)
I had a certain budget for tools that I could use to help this process along. I went to my local Guitar Sinner and auditioned all the keyboards that had on-board sequencing available (this would have been 2004/2005 time frame IIRC). I bought the Motif based on the auto-generative stuff. I should have looked at the manual first.
Sequencing on it was terribly un-intuitive with not much help from the manual. I ended up using the NFR Tracktion 1 to sequence; the Motif on-board sequencer was so useless (to me at least). I'm talking stupidly simple sequences like single note repeated every so many milliseconds, with the most complicated thing being two tracks, each of single note steady cadences and offsetting the timing between the two tracks to audition what sounded nice. Even timing is not preferred, I can tell you that.
Impossible on the Motif - again, for me.
I could have done this on my old trusty Ensoniq ESQ1 with much more ease than the Motif.
If I'm in the minority with this opinion, I'm o.k. with that, but that experience left me very unhappy with Yamaha.