Yamaha DX7II VSTi

[toine6]

Maybe I'll do a comparison between FM7 and DX7 this weekend if I get time. I'll post the results here and people can decide how close they are.

[Gonga]

There's no question at all in my mind that the vsts sound different than my TX-802 6-op.

Try this: compare a Jazz Guitar 1 sound in FM7 or FM8 with the DX7II, TX-802, etc. That's an objective comparison. This is an important sound...it was the main "guitar" sound Jan Hammer used in Miami Vice, and on the last instrumental piece ever to be #1 in the U.S. Before the DX, his guitar was always a synced Moog (a more expressive but very different sound).

The vsts are great synths - they just sound "different." Opening the same patch on my TX-802 and FM8, most patches sound significantly different - so there you go. My teenage kids can tell the difference immediately in the case of the Jazz Guitar 1. Further, no matter how long I've spent, I cannot get that sound from my FM8. If you can, please do.

Here's an example of how I've had to mangle FM8 to get it close, with a less-than-stellar result (FM8 is the "Jazz Guitar" solo):

http://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/soundcloud-session-3

And here's the real thing (in the middle of the tune):

http://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/time-out

Again...the ""Hawaiian Guitar"...the TX...go ahead and dial in this sound in FM8...if you can...please...

http://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/lesving-it

[beely]

Those parts certainly sound significantly different but they are different parts in different tracks with different processing.

What we really need to compare is the same part played on the same patch by both synths with no processing, otherwise comparisons are rather academic...

Also, I'm always a bit wary when people say "X sounds *NOTHING* like Y". For instance, sometimes what they actually mean is "X does sound like Y in the same basic sound but there is a dimension missing in the body of the sound I find displeasing" but joe punter would probably hear no differences at all. That's not "NOTHING" alike, at all.

I've even had cases when people are comparing a real DX7 to a emulation, and showing how the two patches are dissimilar, and totally forgetting the DX7's sounds were optimised for it's keyboard, which only outputted up to 100 velocity values, versus playing the module on a different keyboard with a totally different response going up to 127. As one of the *key* reasons the DX7 was so appealing and new sounding was how dynamic and responsive to velocity it's sounds were, so if you are playing a different keyboard response, the sounds will also react differently.

[beely]

Again...the ""Hawaiian Guitar"...the TX...go ahead and dial in this sound in FM8...if you can...please...

Well, let us know what patch number this is, or output the sysex from the DX7, load it into FM7/FM8 and play the same part.

Also, I think, although it's been a while since I used FM7, that FM8 is a bit more clean and hifi than even FM7 was, which was clean and hifi compared to the DX7II, which was super-clean and hifi compared to the original DX7...

[Teksonik]

Holy crap really ? I haven't seen Cosmo in years. I had an e-mail exchange with him a while back but that's it. Last I heard he was in Arizona working for Line 6 after working for Korg ? I used to work with him at Mo Mahoney's Drum Shop here in Vegas. I credit him for getting me started on this life long addiction to synths and patch programming. Yes if you see him again tell him Hoppy says Hi and please do talk him into releasing his old DX patches again. I've searched the net but never found any of them and lost most of them when my old Atari ST DX Droid disks died.. I tried to get him to join KVR as I'd love to hear what he could do with the soft synths of today.....small world......

He's still with Line 6 and loving it. The new Variax HD's came out the other day and he was like a kid in a candy store, raving about how they finally nailed them. He just really loves music technology.

I'll send him your best and talk to him about those patches!

Cool thanks! He's always been one of my heroes. He taught me so much back in the day when Midi was in it's infancy and technology was growing at such a rapid pace. It's been such fun living through those exciting times and then the software boom of the last dozen years or so........

[Gonga]

beely, your point regarding comparing the raw patches is well-taken. the patch is on the original DX7 and DX7II - Jazz Guitar 1. I'm in the middle of several projects atm so won't have time to do the comparison now, but to anyone who is familiar with the DXII or TX-802 and this patch, they already know that patch has attack "balls." In my opinion, yeah, the difference is quite distinct. If you seek, you shall hear. My view is the reason people don't hear the difference is they don't care about the original sounds, which is fine. In my case, I was searching for that sound, and tried FM7 and FM8 and couldn't get it. I picked up a used TX-802 and wow, what a difference. Until somebody models it, it will remain in my rack below the JV-2080.

[Teksonik]

Here's an example of how I've had to mangle FM8 to get it close, with a less-than-stellar result (FM8 is the "Jazz Guitar" solo):

Interesting but could you post some simple examples with no effects and in isolation. It's hard to compare two sounds in two different songs......

EDIT: I see Beely beat me to it.......

[beely]

beely, your point regarding comparing the raw patches is well-taken. the patch is on the original DX7 and DX7II - Jazz Guitar 1.

No worries. So that's in the original preset bank? The reason I ask is that there are so many variations of these sounds around with the same or similar names, it's often difficult to home in on the exact one.

Anyway, as mentioned, I no longer have my hardware DX7II any more so can't do the test directly - hence the wish for some people who can to post up their results. There will always be some differences as the hardware is going through two stages of conversion before being recorded, whereas the plugin is just outputting the pure digital audio, of course.

I'm in the middle of several projects atm so won't have time to do the comparison now, but to anyone who is familiar with the DXII or TX-802 and this patch, they already know that patch has attack "balls" that the FM8 truly comes no where near. So in my opinion, yeah, they difference is quite distinct. If you seek, you shall hear.

Sure, and I think some of us here are interesting to do just this and hear for ourselves, rather than just rely on some other people's descriptions - I'm not invalidating yours, I just need to make up my own, rather than inherit someone else's

My view is the reason people don't hear the difference is they don't care about the original sounds, which is fine.

I don't think that's the case. I already said that there are instances, for sure, in which FM7/FM8 don't behave identically to the hardware, and these are mostly, (as I understand and remember, I haven't looked into it in depth) in outlying extreme parameters or some weird quirks in the hardware that were missed in the emulation - and there are sounds that take "advantage" of these quirks that will indeed sound different.

As I said, I've introduced that as a given in this thread, so we're basically talking about the rest of the cases, or about the overall sound character of the plugins versus the hardware - and the sound character is most different from the original DX7 due mostly to the lower quality of the processing and convertors in the original - some of which FM7/FM8 attempted to emulate with the various associated parameters - I do not know exactly what these parameters do or how successful they are at it...

[Teksonik]

they already know that patch has attack "balls." In my opinion, yeah, the difference is quite distinct.

See that's the problem...what does that mean in terms of real sound ? You couldn't reproduce those "balls" with some clever programming/processing ?

It's hard to translate what people mean when they say the hardware has "grit" or "ooomph" or whatever. I just have to think that using all the digital software we have at our fingetips today you couldn't reproduce the digital sounds of the DX family......

[Teksonik]

For the record several of my old patches done on an original DX7 don't sound anything like they are supposed to when imported into FM7/8. However I've just never cared enough to try and tweak them back into their original condition.

[Gonga]

You couldn't reproduce those "balls" with some clever programming/processing ?

Like I said, I tried and couldn't. I'd like to hear someone do it, I really would!

What I meant by "attack balls" is the TX-802 has a much stronger attack - very intense dynamics. If you load the Jazz Guitar 1 patch into the two synths and compare the attack transient visually, using software that can display the attack envelope, I'm confident the attacks will appear dramatically different for the same patch. And I'm also convinced that the FM8 cannot produce such a dramatic attack, but I'd like to be proven wrong. When I use FM8, I cannot get it to produce that sound largely because it doesn't have that intense attack transient. However, I am far from an experienced FM programmer. My skills on FM are weak.

[beely]

I had a quick look at that patch in FM8, and I agree that it doesn't sound anywhere near as spiky or bright in it's attack compared to the track posted above, and would be interested in knowing why, and whether this patch uses some of those hardware quirks.

I know at least someone on KVR is intimate with this issue on faithful DX7 emulations and the quirks of the hardware, and maybe they will chime in, or someone will dig up some of those old threads...

[Spitfire31]

There's no question at all in my mind that the vsts sound different than my TX-802 6-op.

Comparing a hardware synth to a software VI is an exercise in futility and a waste of time.

Even if the digital aspect of both instruments were virtually identical, there are major differences in DA and analogue output stages, as well as digital processing in the HW synth to allow for idiosyncracies in the above mentioned output stage.

If you can't live happily without 100 percent authentic DX7 sound - just buy a DX7 (with an E! board to correct for the crippled velocity issue), or a TX7. They're a dime a dozen.

'Nuf said.

/Joachim

[Uncle E]

Those parts certainly sound significantly different but they are different parts in different tracks with different processing.

What we really need to compare is the same part played on the same patch by both synths with no processing, otherwise comparisons are rather academic...

What about the standard KVR argument of "nobody can hear the difference in a busy mix"? I do agree with you that it's not a fair comparison when these are different with different processing but I personally have enough experience with DX's and FM8 to understand what Dan is getting at.

Also, I'm always a bit wary when people say "X sounds *NOTHING* like Y". For instance, sometimes what they actually mean is "X does sound like Y in the same basic sound but there is a dimension missing in the body of the sound I find displeasing" but joe punter would probably hear no differences at all. That's not "NOTHING" alike, at all.

I'd say FM8 sounds about as different from a DX7 as a classical guitar sounds from a steel string acoustic guitar.

FM8 is a killer synth - one of my favorites! - and I've gotten more good sounds out of it than I've ever gotten out of DX's. However, for those few DX sounds that I really like, I haven't been able to replace them with FM8.

[Uncle E]

Again...the ""Hawaiian Guitar"...the TX...go ahead and dial in this sound in FM8...if you can...please...

You're a monster of a player.