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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
 
9768 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:59 am Which plugins add unwanted watermarks to audio?

I have heard of that method a couple of times, but I am not sure which synths and other plugins do that. Seems that is not necessarily something developers like to mention. So let's mention it for them :wink:

I think it is absolutely ok if developers want to protect their software, but adding anything but the sound to the audio seems way too intrusive in my view. The protection should kick in at an earlier stage, i.e. regarding the download and installation of software, not the music I make with that software.

What kind of data do such watermarks include, who "reads" them and how?

I know there are plugins whose purpose it is to add musicians' own watermarks to songs in order to protect them, but that is a completely different story and not what this thread is about.

The more we learn of the NSA etc., the more allergic I become to tracking, spying, and all that secrecy and control crap... :P
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4damind
KVRAF
 
4558 posts since 17 Aug, 2004, from Berlin, Germany

Postby 4damind; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:02 pm

Tone2
chk071
KVRAF
 
13500 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:06 pm

Nevermind
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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
 
9768 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:09 pm

chk071 wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:I think it is absolutely ok if developers want to protect their software, but adding anything but the sound to the audio seems way too intrusive in my view.

It makes no difference to the audio. Speak it is not audible.


Still, once I know it is in there somehow, I feel like they are interfering with my music, where they have absolutely no business at all interfering.

As mentioned, I have no idea what kind of data such watermarks include, but obviously data on those plugins. I think it is a kind of trade secret which plugins I use, I don't want anyone to know what I use.
chk071
KVRAF
 
13500 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:24 pm

Well, if you listen to that Aphex Twin track, you'll also know that he's interferring with you in a way that is not desired. :hihi: But seriously, you won't hear or notice a thing anyway. Not sure exactly how it works, but the way i think it works, is that it adds some non-audible frequencies from time to time, which are then visible on a spectogram. Like some hiss on demo versions of plugins, just that it is not audible.
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murnau
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5312 posts since 13 Jan, 2005, from right behind you

Postby murnau; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:33 pm

thats wrong.

the watermark in sample libraries can't be identified of course in a track (where you hear the processed audio) finally.

it's only to prevent that an user upload the original library and share it.

so the developers can only identify which buyer share the library not which track was made by using a pirated library.

thats why those criminal pirate groups use stolen credit cards with innocent customer details.

i doubt there are plugins using watermark method but it's possible the dev put an idividual chiffre in the code.

this is not a big problem either like said the bad boys use carding or simply manipulate the code.
Last edited by murnau on Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Whoever wants music instead of noise, joy instead of pleasure, soul instead of gold, creative work instead of business, passion instead of foolery, finds no home in this trivial world of ours.
chk071
KVRAF
 
13500 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:37 pm

Hm, no idea how it works then.
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murnau
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5312 posts since 13 Jan, 2005, from right behind you

Postby murnau; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:43 pm

chk071 wrote:Hm, no idea how it works then.


i tried to explain that you won't find any watermark in the processed audio (your track) only in the original product (the library itself).
Whoever wants music instead of noise, joy instead of pleasure, soul instead of gold, creative work instead of business, passion instead of foolery, finds no home in this trivial world of ours.
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fluffy_little_something
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9768 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:46 pm

murnau wrote:
chk071 wrote:Hm, no idea how it works then.


i tried to explain that you won't find any watermark in the processed audio (your track) only in the original product (the library itself).


Someone said Tone2 uses such watermarks. But that company does not even make any sample stuff, right?
chk071
KVRAF
 
13500 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:47 pm

Yeah, but how does that work on a plugin. Actually i also lack the info of what a watermark exactly is in this case. I only know what it does, say, in a picture or a video file.
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murnau
KVRAF
 
5312 posts since 13 Jan, 2005, from right behind you

Postby murnau; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:53 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:
murnau wrote:
chk071 wrote:Hm, no idea how it works then.


i tried to explain that you won't find any watermark in the processed audio (your track) only in the original product (the library itself).


Someone said Tone2 uses such watermarks. But that company does not even make any sample stuff, right?


watermarking is common protection in sample world. for tone2: they claim to use watermark, as i wrote above i understand that they maybe have some individual strings (numbers+letters) deep in the code.

if you share your version they can identify you by downloading themself and check, no way then can filter it out in a track.

god knows only, and i dont really care nowdays. :hihi:
Last edited by murnau on Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whoever wants music instead of noise, joy instead of pleasure, soul instead of gold, creative work instead of business, passion instead of foolery, finds no home in this trivial world of ours.
elxsound
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4373 posts since 18 Aug, 2007, from NYC

Postby elxsound; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:56 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:
murnau wrote:
chk071 wrote:Hm, no idea how it works then.


i tried to explain that you won't find any watermark in the processed audio (your track) only in the original product (the library itself).


Someone said Tone2 uses such watermarks. But that company does not even make any sample stuff, right?


It's simply extra data added to sample files, so to identify the original purchaser of the sample library.

There's no "watermarking" of the output audio signal.

As murnau said.
chk071
KVRAF
 
13500 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:56 pm

I found this: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 28#4463228 Maybe that's it, dunno.
DrumAddict
KVRist
 
400 posts since 3 Jun, 2012

Postby DrumAddict; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:58 pm

when you mean plugins or vst's !

an simple example are jbridge , the developer codes your name and e-mail adress directly in the files , thats just one example
elxsound
KVRAF
 
4373 posts since 18 Aug, 2007, from NYC

Postby elxsound; Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:59 pm

murnau wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:
murnau wrote:
chk071 wrote:Hm, no idea how it works then.


i tried to explain that you won't find any watermark in the processed audio (your track) only in the original product (the library itself).


Someone said Tone2 uses such watermarks. But that company does not even make any sample stuff, right?


watermarking is common protection in sample world. for tone2: they claim to use watermark, as i wrote above i understand that they maybe have some individual strings (numbers+letters) deep in the code.

if you share your version they can identify you by downloading themself and check, no way then can filter it out in a track.

god knows only, and i dont really care nowdays. :hihi:


If there was, it would be rendered useless if processed by *any* external effects.

If concerned use a spectrogram to verify.

Here's a free one: http://spek.cc/
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