[Metal Gear Solid] What is this sounds library ?

[HaganeSteel]

How did he manage to get those brass and strings sound? They're incredible, the brass almost sound detuned, but not really. I don't know, there are so many overtones and layers ... it really is a majestic and unique sound.
But for the love of me I cannot find any info about his gear of that time!

Please Hagane, tell me you have some answers

Sorry that I haven't been around. The PM didn't go to my email. I just randomly logged in and saw that you needed help.

Edit: I heavily edited this because upon listening to it again I realized I was wrong on some things.

Junya Nakano more than likely used a JV-2080 for this.

I'm almost positive those horns are from the Orchestral I expansion board. They may be a combination of the "F.Horn Sect2" and "F.Horn Mute" waveforms. The strings are mostly the Staccato/Marcato strings from the Orchestral I expansion, too. In fact, this entire song can be recreated pretty faithfully on a JV-2080 with the Orchestral I expansion board.

To get his sound, Junya Nakano likely decides on a scale or key, then creates a musical phrase that he repeats over and over. He then layers chords on top of it. The chords playing over the phrase create tension. He builds on that tension by adding more instruments and making the chords more dense. He then releases that tension by removing those instruments and moving into another musical phrase.

The purpose of creating this phrase first is to pin down the rhythm and harmony of the song. It's an easy way to start making music. It also makes it easy to create colorful soundscapes because you can build them piece by piece.

Other composers who use these techniques are Yoko Shimomura, Naoshi Mizuta, and Tomohito Nishiura. Masashi Hamauzu used similar techniques in his Saga Frontier II soundtrack as well.

A more obvious demonstration of this technique is in Yoko Shimomura's Plosive Attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_bKobrC_o

Lastly, it's worth echoing what bill45 said: The Integra-7 should have every sound ever released by Roland. But it's also expensive.

[niu]

Hagane thank you so much for your reply! Sorry for the delay, but I had your same problem (the PM didn't reach my mailbox).

Usually, where do you find info on specific gear used by game composers? Do you own them and experiment by yourself or there's some kind of community? The only one I know is Gamingforce but it's pretty much dead now. I'd love to talk more about this stuff with other people.

For example I've been trying to find info on the gear used by Hitoshi Sakimoto on Final Fantasy Tactics for quite some time now, but with no success. Any ideas?

[niu]

double post

[HaganeSteel]

Hagane thank you so much for your reply! Sorry for the delay, but I had your same problem (the PM didn't reach my mailbox).

Usually, where do you find info on specific gear used by game composers? Do you own them and experiment by yourself or there's some kind of community? The only one I know is Gamingforce but it's pretty much dead now. I'd love to talk more about this stuff with other people.

For example I've been trying to find info on the gear used by Hitoshi Sakimoto on Final Fantasy Tactics for quite some time now, but with no success. Any ideas?

Hitoshi Sakimoto and Masaharu Iwata used the Orchestral I expansion board on what I would guess was a JV1080.

They eventually upgraded to the XV5080, and after that to software.

I've been researching this for over ten years now. There used to be a lot of resources available, such as interviews from outlets like RocketBaby, and there once existed a French site with biographies and gear lists of many of the Square composers.

A lot of what I know comes from my own ear. I've used many of these sounds, myself (yes, I'm a musician, to answer the question in your PM).

I follow the composers, and I've gained a sense for what they like in terms of sounds and synths. This is how I can make such educated guesses.

Just as a side note: Metal Gear Solid also used a Korg M1 for some of its sound effects.

You guys think this is crazy. I'm like this with everything.

All I've done is tell everyone how popular Roland was in Japan during the 90's.

In Japan, the popular synths/samplers for video game music during the 90's were:
Korg M1.
Korg Wavestation.
Korg Trinity.
Roland Sound Canvas (mostly the SC-88, SC-88 Pro, and SC-8850).
Roland JV (and XV).
Emu Proteus.
Yamaha MU/Tone Generators.
Akai S-series.

Honorable (western) mentions go to:
Roland MT-32.
Creative Sound Blaster.
Roland SC-55.

If there's a sound you like, it can most likely be found in one of these.

[niu]

Very interesting, thanks as always. I need to save some money to buy and try these machines by myself. I know they're a bit obsolete now, but I would do it even just for the educational value. Playing around with them and trying to emulate what the masters did in the 90's must be a great learning experience.

One other thing that I've always wondered is how they actually implemented the sounds in the game? I mean, ok they composed a track and created a sequence using modules and keyboards ... then what? They imported the MIDI file into the game engine, but what about the sounds? Did they have to import every single sample as well? And what if they had to apply EQ, filters, etc.? I wonder if that was the audio programmer's job.

[HaganeSteel]

Very interesting, thanks as always. I need to save some money to buy and try these machines by myself. I know they're a bit obsolete now, but I would do it even just for the educational value. Playing around with them and trying to emulate what the masters did in the 90's must be a great learning experience.

It's been interesting.

They're not obsolete. Whenever I use my Roland gear, everyone tells me, "That's the best sampled X I've ever heard." That's why I use it.

I don't use Roland because I'm permanently stuck in the 90's (even though I am). I use Roland because it still sounds better than 90% of the crap we have today.

Same goes for Korg and Emu. The Emu Proteus 2000 still has the best drumkits I can find.

That said, the Roland SD-50 was a monumental disappointment. I returned it for a refund because it had broken drivers, but it also sounded like garbage, too.

One other thing that I've always wondered is how they actually implemented the sounds in the game? I mean, ok they composed a track and created a sequence using modules and keyboards ... then what? They imported the MIDI file into the game engine, but what about the sounds? Did they have to import every single sample as well? And what if they had to apply EQ, filters, etc.? I wonder if that was the audio programmer's job.

My understanding is that they basically used MOD files that were in their own proprietary format. They did import the samples, which usually had to be EQed and processed beforehand.

After the Playstation came out, redbook became a bit more popular, but it wasn't as common because of a lack of storage space. I believe Mortal Kombat Trilogy was redbook.

[niu]

They're not obsolete. Whenever I use my Roland gear, everyone tells me, "That's the best sampled X I've ever heard." That's why I use it.

I'd love to hear your stuff sometimes

I don't use Roland because I'm permanently stuck in the 90's (even though I am). I use Roland because it still sounds better than 90% of the crap we have today.

Haha I can see that. In a way I'm also kinda stuck in the 90's, but for the most part I use libraries these days. One more reason to get a damn 2080 and "renew" my palette of sounds

Same goes for Korg and Emu. The Emu Proteus 2000 still has the best drumkits I can find.

My ex roommate had one, but I've never spent time with it. Next time I see I'll ask him if he wants to sell it

That said, the Roland SD-50 was a monumental disappointment. I returned it for a refund because it had broken drivers, but it also sounded like garbage, too.

Good to know. I was checking it out recently, but if you say so I trust you

My understanding is that they basically used MOD files that were in their own proprietary format. They did import the samples, which usually had to be EQed and processed beforehand.

I knew about the MOD files, but it's still hard to believe that they had to import and compress every single sample one by one. I mean, that must be A LOT of work ... wow making game music back in the day wasn't easy at all

[HaganeSteel]

That said, the Roland SD-50 was a monumental disappointment. I returned it for a refund because it had broken drivers, but it also sounded like garbage, too.

Good to know. I was checking it out recently, but if you say so I trust you

It was pretty bad. They ruined the Sound Canvas sounds, and you couldn't un-ruin them.

Sound Canvases were great because of how plug-n-play they were. You had a box of dry, instantly usable mono sounds. There were no frills, no tricks -- you could use them in anything, for anything.

The SD-50 was full of over-processed, stereo presets, and they weren't even on par with Edirol Orchestral -- and many of Edirol Orchestral's sounds came from the SC-8850.

A Sound Canvas should be a selection of Roland's best sounds -- at the cost of losing a lot of editing features and the ability to expand. The SD-50 had neither the editing features nor the excellent sounds.

It was a step back.

If they stopped over-processing their sounds and trying to compete with the likes of SampleTank, and instead they focused strictly on usability and GM (and the versatility GM provides), they'd have more fans.

GM is a big part of the problem. You can't market General MIDI anymore. The term has so many negative connotations these days.

But what they can do is tell you, "This synth has every sound you'll ever need in it."

That's what GS really means to us, and it's why we use it.

It makes me so angry. Roland is that boyfriend you see the good in but everyone else hates. They're making it really hard for me to advocate for them.

My understanding is that they basically used MOD files that were in their own proprietary format. They did import the samples, which usually had to be EQed and processed beforehand.

I knew about the MOD files, but it's still hard to believe that they had to import and compress every single sample one by one. I mean, that must be A LOT of work ... wow making game music back in the day wasn't easy at all

They used to have dedicated "synthesizer operators" who were sometimes aspiring composers, themselves.

[niu]

It was pretty bad. They ruined the Sound Canvas sounds, and you couldn't un-ruin them.

Sound Canvases were great because of how plug-n-play they were. You had a box of dry, instantly usable mono sounds. There were no frills, no tricks -- you could use them in anything, for anything.

The SD-50 was full of over-processed, stereo presets, and they weren't even on par with Edirol Orchestral -- and many of Edirol Orchestral's sounds came from the SC-8850.

A Sound Canvas should be a selection of Roland's best sounds -- at the cost of losing a lot of editing features and the ability to expand. The SD-50 had neither the editing features nor the excellent sounds.

It was a step back.

If they stopped over-processing their sounds and trying to compete with the likes of SampleTank, and instead they focused strictly on usability and GM (and the versatility GM provides), they'd have more fans.

GM is a big part of the problem. You can't market General MIDI anymore. The term has so many negative connotations these days.

But what they can do is tell you, "This synth has every sound you'll ever need in it."

That's what GS really means to us, and it's why we use it.

It makes me so angry. Roland is that boyfriend you see the good in but everyone else hates. They're making it really hard for me to advocate for them.

Unfortunately they have to do that in order to sell more. People today don't want to spend time learning how to use gear and tweak their own patches, they want everything sound great right out of the box. In order to be competitive in this industry the companies have to bend to the user's will ... It looks like people like you and me are not the majority anymore.

[HaganeSteel]

I have to warn you, though. If you do plan to use a JV2080, you should know that nearly all of the strings have a noticeable and annoying loop point that renders them unusable in the C3-C4 range.

Final Fantasy Tactics and Chrono Cross avoided this issue because they fixed the loop points when they processed the samples.

This is why so many composers used Bright Strings instead. A demonstration of the sound is here (they play in the intro and as the melody):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDxRV7yYz8

This is Tsuyoshi Sekito. Notice how Bright Strings don't sound like strings -- what they are instead is usable. They had a really tight attack that made them perfect for fast runs, and they mixed into the background perfectly.

I haven't been able to find this sound on one of the SR-JV expansions. My advice would be to track it down if you want to use a Roland and use the same techniques the Japanese did in the 90's.

[niu]

WHAT?? A noticeable loop point in such a famous and praised machine? How is that possible? And why no one talks about it anywhere on the web?

[niu]

Were you talking about the Orchestral I expansion, the Orchestral II or both?
I'm listening to the demos on Synthmania, but I can't hear the loop point that you're talking about. Maybe they need to be played longer in order hear it?

[niu]

This is why so many composers used Bright Strings instead. A demonstration of the sound is here (they play in the intro and as the melody):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDxRV7yYz8

This is Tsuyoshi Sekito. Notice how Bright Strings don't sound like strings -- what they are instead is usable. They had a really tight attack that made them perfect for fast runs, and they mixed into the background perfectly.

I haven't been able to find this sound on one of the SR-JV expansions. My advice would be to track it down if you want to use a Roland and use the same techniques the Japanese did in the 90's.

Mmm sorry but I don't get it, what's the point of using a different sound with a fast attack if the problem is a loop point? I guess that it would be noticeable with long notes, right?

[HaganeSteel]

WHAT?? A noticeable loop point in such a famous and praised machine? How is that possible? And why no one talks about it anywhere on the web?

Most people aren't as critical as I am. At the time, they sounded incredible no matter what. The loop point is noticeable, but it still sounds very much like an actual violin section. They were beautiful in the bass/cello and upper violin ranges, too, and that helped make it easy to forgive.

There were string sounds in other expansions that didn't have those problems, too. In particular, the stereo full strings patch from Edirol Orchestral (that came from the SC-8850) was clean and usable. But I never found the expansion that this sound was on.

I have a specific musical style that I developed from composing with General MIDI and working within its limitations. Windows GM contains sounds from the SC-55, and the SC-55 sounded very different from the later Roland models.

I like to have violins, violas, and celli playing chords in the background. I do it a lot because when you're working with General MIDI, you have so few options for filling out a song. When I try to do this with the strings on my XP-30, for example, it doesn't work -- the loop points aren't smooth enough, and so the strings don't fade into the background like they should.

Were you talking about the Orchestral I expansion, the Orchestral II or both?
I'm listening to the demos on Synthmania, but I can't hear the loop point that you're talking about. Maybe they need to be played longer in order hear it?

It's there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE0Cfeh ... B1334D7685

The staccato strings are from an Emu Proteus 2000. The legato strings are the ones we're looking at. The audio is clipping, but it's a good demonstration of the sound, especially at 00:14. Martin O'Donnell layered his strings to try to fix it, but it's still audible.

Mmm sorry but I don't get it, what's the point of using a different sound with a fast attack if the problem is a loop point? I guess that it would be noticeable with long notes, right?

Bright Strings had a very smooth loop point and an excellent fast attack. They almost singlehandedly made the later Roland Sound Canvases usable.

More Bright Strings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2NXMp_KfuQ

An incredible sound with a unique personality -- it fit so perfectly in the background, and it could be used for the melody, either on its own or layered.

[niu]

It's there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE0Cfeh ... B1334D7685

The staccato strings are from an Emu Proteus 2000. The legato strings are the ones we're looking at. The audio is clipping, but it's a good demonstration of the sound, especially at 00:14. Martin O'Donnell layered his strings to try to fix it, but it's still audible.

Yeah I can hear it, it's definitely there. Although I initially thought that he made it on purpose.
It might become annoying after a while, but this won't stop me from buying one

Bright Strings had a very smooth loop point and an excellent fast attack. They almost singlehandedly made the later Roland Sound Canvases usable.

More Bright Strings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2NXMp_KfuQ

An incredible sound with a unique personality -- it fit so perfectly in the background, and it could be used for the melody, either on its own or layered.

Ohh Ikaruga! I've been listening to this OST a lot, I know what you're talking about. That is such a peculiar sound indeed, very "Japanese" if that makes any sense. I heard it a lot in many soundtracks, but I can't think of any right now. DBGT Final Bout, maybe? I should do some research.

I have a specific musical style that I developed from composing with General MIDI and working within its limitations.

Yeah imitations are good, they help define a style and give consistency.