One-Synth-Challenge 57: Tunefish - Chat & Gossip

[idfpower]

If it's just from the synth (no samples involved) then yes, it's ok.
But IMO is risky...when ppl need to listen to 20 - 30 tracks in order to vote, some might not pay really close attention to what's going on and mistake it for a sample. On the other hand, the rules also state that you shouldn't tweak a preset up to the point that it can't be recognized as coming from the OSC synth. So it's a bit of a grey area thing...but that's just my opinion.

[bjporter]

Nice

Sooooo ...for clarification's sake, are vocal "sounding" patches quite legit or generally discouraged?

There's nothing in the rules that discourages that. The only thing discouraged is abusing / distorting the sound of the Synth too much or illegal effects.

I've done many vocal sounds before, some were from the synth, other times I used a bit of EQ to sculpt the sound to make it more vocalish.

You're all encouraged to experiment

[H-man]

All clear now. Thx

[crimsonwarlock]

the rules also state that you shouldn't tweak a preset up to the point that it can't be recognized as coming from the OSC synth.

Just to be clear on this; the rules state that you are not allowed to change the sound beyond recognition OUTSIDE of the synth (i.e. using external FX). If you can do things with a synth that others can't simply because you are good at programming it, that's obviously no problem. For example, the piano-patch I got from CM-101 is even for myself pretty much beyond belief. That reminds me to upload my patches for CM-101 btw

[idfpower]

the rules also state that you shouldn't tweak a preset up to the point that it can't be recognized as coming from the OSC synth.

Just to be clear on this; the rules state that you are not allowed to change the sound beyond recognition OUTSIDE of the synth (i.e. using external FX). If you can do things with a synth that others can't simply because you are good at programming it, that's obviously no problem. For example, the piano-patch I got from CM-101 is even for myself pretty much beyond belief. That reminds me to upload my patches for CM-101 btw

You're right, but consider this - from the practical point of view: when I'm going through the entire list of songs and I hear something very different/weird/etc, what do you think I'll do? Asking for the project files to see if that sound comes for real from the synth and not from an external effect/sample or simply give a lower rating and move on?

All I'm saying is that sometimes is better to play safe than using a controversial sound - it may get you some extra points, but then again it may have the opposite effect. Just my opinion.

[chilledpanda]

the rules also state that you shouldn't tweak a preset up to the point that it can't be recognized as coming from the OSC synth.

Just to be clear on this; the rules state that you are not allowed to change the sound beyond recognition OUTSIDE of the synth (i.e. using external FX). If you can do things with a synth that others can't simply because you are good at programming it, that's obviously no problem. For example, the piano-patch I got from CM-101 is even for myself pretty much beyond belief. That reminds me to upload my patches for CM-101 btw

You're right, but consider this - from the practical point of view: when I'm going through the entire list of songs and I hear something very different/weird/etc, what do you think I'll do? Asking for the project files to see if that sound comes for real from the synth and not from an external effect/sample or simply give a lower rating and move on?

All I'm saying is that sometimes is better to play safe than using a controversial sound - it may get you some extra points, but then again it may have the opposite effect. Just my opinion.

Sorry got to comment on this, just this really comes across as sour grapes, especially suggesting what someone should and should not do, because you will mark someone down because they manage todo such a good job. Actually it almost comes across as you want him to "play it" safe so you have a better chance?
Seems to be very far away from the good spirit/will/feedback/encouragement I have seen and experienced in this comp.
I'm sure the admins listen to the tracks and any they feel are so good they need to validate, if you feel that something that is borderline you could simply flag it with the admins to check and mark them on merit as if they have done it, any discrepencies should be dealt with the admin.

IMHO what your essentially saying your marking people whether you think they are cheating, rather than marking someone on merit.

[crimsonwarlock]

You're right, but consider this - from the practical point of view: when I'm going through the entire list of songs and I hear something very different/weird/etc, what do you think I'll do? Asking for the project files to see if that sound comes for real from the synth and not from an external effect/sample or simply give a lower rating and move on?

All I'm saying is that sometimes is better to play safe than using a controversial sound - it may get you some extra points, but then again it may have the opposite effect. Just my opinion.

I totally disagree with this: one of the challenges is to push a synth as far as you can and see what it can do. That is exactly why there are rules about NOT using external FX to change the synth sound; the idea is that this limitation will push the contestants to get as good sounds as possible from a chosen synth.

Besides that, most contestants do upload their patches after (or sometimes even during) the contest, so it's pretty obvious that the patches are legit. So far nobody has questioned my CM-101 sounds although several people where somewhat stunned that this came out of that little synth. I haven't uploaded the patches yet because I want to put my Reaper FX-chains in the upload as well to show how the sounds where processed and give the exact result as I used in the compo.

IMHO what your essentially saying your marking people whether you think they are cheating, rather than marking someone on merit.

I have to agree with that.

[idfpower]

Sorry got to comment on this, just this really comes across as sour grapes, especially suggesting what someone should and should not do, because you will mark someone down because they manage todo such a good job. Actually it almost comes across as you want him to "play it" safe so you have a better chance?
Seems to be very far away from the good spirit/will/feedback/encouragement I have seen and experienced in this comp.
I'm sure the admins listen to the tracks and any they feel are so good they need to validate, if you feel that something that is borderline you could simply flag it with the admins to check and mark them on merit as if they have done it, any discrepencies should be dealt with the admin.

IMHO what your essentially saying your marking people whether you think they are cheating, rather than marking someone on merit.

I think you got it all wrong

First off, I am fully aware of my own limitations and of the skill level of other participants. I know it's highly unlikely to ever rank higher in OSC and tbh I couldn't care less

Second, ppl should start posting more details regarding their entries on Soundcloud. Often a lot of entries display only the number of instances. Nothing about effects and so on. That is if all voters actually bother to read that info anyway.

Third, you can rank a lower position in spite of showing brilliant programming skills. Ppl see and hear different things in a song: some focus on the technical aspect, others on emotion, etc. We all have different scoring criteria.

All in all, I was just stating my opinion - like it or not. Ppl are free to do whatever they feel like But all this debate could have been avoided if more detailed info would have been provided - I really thought that was a sample.

[chilledpanda]

Sorry got to comment on this, just this really comes across as sour grapes, especially suggesting what someone should and should not do, because you will mark someone down because they manage todo such a good job. Actually it almost comes across as you want him to "play it" safe so you have a better chance?
Seems to be very far away from the good spirit/will/feedback/encouragement I have seen and experienced in this comp.
I'm sure the admins listen to the tracks and any they feel are so good they need to validate, if you feel that something that is borderline you could simply flag it with the admins to check and mark them on merit as if they have done it, any discrepencies should be dealt with the admin.

IMHO what your essentially saying your marking people whether you think they are cheating, rather than marking someone on merit.

I think you got it all wrong

First off, I am fully aware of my own limitations and of the skill level of other participants. I know it's highly unlikely to ever rank higher in OSC and tbh I couldn't care less

Second, ppl should start posting more details regarding their entries on Soundcloud. Often a lot of entries display only the number of instances. Nothing about effects and so on. That is if all voters actually bother to read that info anyway.

Third, you can rank a lower position in spite of showing brilliant programming skills. Ppl see and hear different things in a song: some focus on the technical aspect, others on emotion, etc. We all have different scoring criteria.

All in all, I was just stating my opinion - like it or not. Ppl are free to do whatever they feel like But all this debate could have been avoided if more detailed info would have been provided - I really thought that was a sample.

@First off - well just my opinion, on how it came across opposed to defining any limitations, my skills are fairly basic anyway

@Second - AFAIA Richard did post all that on sound cloud, though only states in the rules to post in forum.

@Third - Yes, people hear different things and voting is subjective, not sure many would vote someone less because they thought it was to good to be true, imho things like that tends to fall in the reams of "game playing".

Of course, your entitiled to you opinion, but initially you stated Richard was breaking the rules, when he didn't. Would be nice if you simply said sorry to him for your misinterpretation of the rules .

Anyway's I will shutup, Richard seems a really nice guy, who probably hates the fuss over his entry .

[idfpower]

@Second - AFAIA Richard did post all that on sound cloud, though only states in the rules to post in forum.

@Third - Yes, people hear different things and voting is subjective, not sure many would vote someone less because they thought it was to good to be true, imho things like that tends to fall in the reams of "game playing".

Yes, and he also said he used "lyrics" for the track - which is part of why I thought that was a sample.

Second, in order to be able to influence "game playing" you need to be a major player - otherwise all that "effort" is futile. I'm not a top dog. It would be pointless to go after another contestant, even if I'd be the type of person you (might) think I am. After all, what exactly is the stake in OSC that would be worth relying on such dishonest maneuvers?

Last, the reason for saying all that to him in the first place was not to get him out of OSC, quite the opposite, I was afraid his song might be disqualified for using samples because he didn't know that was not allowed - and I hated seeing that since I think it's a good song. That's also why I haven't scored that song the lowest, in spite of being certain at the time that was a proccessed voice.

Anyway, it's good things got sorted out

[chilledpanda]

@Second - AFAIA Richard did post all that on sound cloud, though only states in the rules to post in forum.

@Third - Yes, people hear different things and voting is subjective, not sure many would vote someone less because they thought it was to good to be true, imho things like that tends to fall in the reams of "game playing".

Yes, and he also said he used "lyrics" for the track - which is part of why I thought that was a sample.

Second, in order to be able to influence "game playing" you need to be a major player - otherwise all that "effort" is futile. I'm not a top dog. It would be pointless to go after another contestant, even if I'd be the type of person you (might) think I am. After all, what exactly is the stake in OSC that would be worth relying on such dishonest maneuvers?

Last, the reason for saying all that to him in the first place was not to get him out of OSC, quite the opposite, I was afraid his song might be disqualified for using samples because he didn't know that was not allowed - and I hated seeing that since I think it's a good song. That's also why I haven't scored that song the lowest, in spite of being certain at the time that was a proccessed voice.

Anyway, it's good things got sorted out

Guess you missed his wink on the end of lyrics. Just a shame he has less points. But hey ho.
One positive thing is I finish higher than 68th this time lol

[RichardSemper]

Anybody care to give input on how to do this properly? I've not implemented one so far in Tunefish4 so everything is possible

IMHO it's a little ironic, the built-in patch management was full-featured but tedious, eg:

1. Tweak existing patch
2. Click Manage
3. Copy to new empty slot
4. Save
5. Click manage
6. Rename new patch
7. Click save
8. Navigate back to original patch (from step 1)
9. Click Restore

While on the other hand Podium was able to store all current settings for TuneFish(es)over 25 + instances without fail, to the point where I stopped worrying about saving patches to the internal patch management at all and just relied on the fact that my latest refinements would be saved with the project.

This is a lot more than I can say for some other commercial synths

My suggestion would be to stream-line the above to:

1. Tweak existing patch
2. Click Save As (or even save as new version - like Aalto)
3. Enter name
4. Click save

Any tweaks to the original patch would be dropped when the plugin loads next (ie. The vsti reads from the patch bank on loading.

I could not have put it better myself

Re: timing issues - I have recorded several wav files to demonstrate:-
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1hvfb60bmlx5 ... 0tests.zip

tests carried out at 145bpm 48000khz, similar results obtained with different speeds and resolution.
metronome played with percussive patches, quantised precisely to the beat.
tf sound seems to play ahead of the metronome, but by varying amounts.
Hope this helps.

What you said about anti-aliasing not being implemented. I thought it might be something like this. Would explain it.

[RichardSemper]

you need to be a major player

For the record, the excellent Jungle Green was the most underrated of my top choices for the cm special. How it only made 55 I don't know

Anyway, it's good things got sorted out

I'm glad thats over. Thanks to bjporter for checking my project files out, and all those fighting my corner. I need say no more

[payne_bc]

Re: timing issues - I have recorded several wav files to demonstrate:-
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1hvfb60bmlx5 ... 0tests.zip

tests carried out at 145bpm 48000khz, similar results obtained with different speeds and resolution.
metronome played with percussive patches, quantised precisely to the beat.
tf sound seems to play ahead of the metronome, but by varying amounts.
Hope this helps.

What you said about anti-aliasing not being implemented. I thought it might be something like this. Would explain it.

okay, I can hear it now I have a vague idea what could be the reason for that. I'll try to reproduce it here in Renoise or Ableton Live (which I have no clue yet how to use, but I'll figure it out
Oh btw, is that problem in the first betas? I remember I implemented this fancy buffer that will split packages up into smaller ones and I have the feeling this is to blame. But if those timing problems are in the first beta, then this is not it.
Even then, I have a second idea what could be the reason

The ideas for the patch management are good I'll try to do something like that in tf4. I think the first beta should not be far. Some minor things to iron out and I think monday could bring a first release.

[idfpower]

For the record, the excellent Jungle Green was the most underrated of my top choices for the cm special. How it only made 55 I don't know

Richard, sorry for dragging you in the middle of all this, like I said my intention was quite the opposite and I'm not the kind of guy who starts a "war" for no reason whatsoever.

As for my song, it's very simple: that's OSC Like I said, some ppl pay more attention to technical aspects rather than composition; without a perfect production there's little chance to rank in the top 5. On the other hand, every single time the top songs are pretty much flawless from top to bottom, so it's not like someone that didn't deserve to win was "helped" to get there. The thing is that we go against really amazingly talented guys, so you don't rank low among average musicians, you go head to head with the best

When I submitted my first OSC song I was sure "it's in the bag" - needless to say, that was not the case When I submitted my best song (or so I thought), it ranked the lowest of all my entries You never know what happens in an OSC and how and why ppl vote for certain songs so the best thing you can do is to just have fun writing your song and enjoy the ride



On a different note, payne, now that most of the issues were ironed out and ppl have already submitted a good number of presets, can we hope for a full nicely organized bank for the future release? (it's a a pain - no pun intended - to do it manually) I'd really like to see one organized by category: bass/lead/keys/pads/arps/seq/etc.