Physical Modeling synths. More than just emulation?

[ThomasHelzle]

Too bad it doesn't do pitch detection, then it would be really a blazing combination. But I found some interesting results even so. Maybe I need a bass to midi plugin to "play" Prism FX...

Just when I wrote this I thought - hey, there was that Midi Bass Beta that I always wanted to try. Downloaded (still v0.1 but it basically works) and built a device chain in Bitwig in an audio track: Uhbik-Q -> Midi Bass -> Reaktor PrismFX. Now that's "physical modelling" I like

Yeeeehawwww

I love how such discussions trigger new ideas!

Cheers,

Tom

[whyterabbyt]

What do you personally find interesting about what you are adding to the discussion?

well i particularly find it interesting that in a thread that was specifically about exploring the most abstract results of PM has so many people bothered by an opening-up of the definition of PM.

What are your favourite "insert correct name here" synths in that realm?

funnily enough, the hybrids like tassman, but according to this thread they supposedly dont count. which is where I came in.

[ThomasHelzle]

What are your favourite "insert correct name here" synths in that realm?

funnily enough, the hybrids like tassman, but according to this thread they supposedly dont count. which is where I came in.

It counts allright but I'm under the impression that hardly anybody is really using it. Apart from the very high price, I guess it has a lot to do with the uninviting GUI. I repeatedly tried to get into it, I don't know how often I downloaded the demo just to put it down rather quickly and go on to brighter meadows.
I guess it could be close to what we are looking for if it would see a bit more love from AAS. I love Chromaphone and to a lesser degree String Studio, but Tassman somehow didn't grab me...
And it somehow feels very dated.

Maybe Version 5 will get a fresh new face and some other improvements...
Could become a winner I guess.

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

When someone says Physical Modeled Synth, I expect a synth that can emulate the characteristics of acoustic instruments. String, Wind, Reed and Percussion instruments.

so not electric guitars, wurlis, clavinets, electric pianos or hammonds then.

because its merely being 'pedantic' to point out that models of those necessarily include electronic and electromagnetic interactions, not purely acoustic ones.
because electronic modelling is only for subtractive synthesis. and anyway it seemingly wouldnt be a 'unified model'.

An electric guitar is still a guitar... any physical instrument can be electrified

As I said, it is my impression that most users (and that includes myself), when they hear the term physical modeling, think of modeling the sound of actual vibrating objects (acoustic meaning no electricity is needed for them to produce the initial sound)... a plucked string, a reed vibrating from the passage of air, a struck tine and so on.

Put another way, if U-he had said they were releasing a physical modeled synth and said nothing more about it, then made a public demo of Diva available, it would not be what most people expected.

As in life in general, no label ever 100% describes that which it represents... language is imperfect.

and of course you are free to think of it however you wish.

[whyterabbyt]

It counts allright but I'm under the impression that hardly anybody is really using it. Apart from the very high price, I guess it has a lot to do with the uninviting GUI. I repeatedly tried to get into it, I don't know how often I downloaded the demo just to put it down rather quickly and go on to brighter meadows.
I guess it could be close to what we are looking for if it would see a bit more love from AAS. I love Chromaphone and to a lesser degree String Studio, but Tassman somehow didn't grab me...
And it somehow feels very dated.

Maybe Version 5 will get a fresh new face and some other improvements...
Could become a winner I guess.

Unfortunately, by now, I'd be genuinely shocked to see a T5. I expect it so little I keep hoping some clever puppy will come along and do a PM equivalent of the Reaktor-based Ampere modules so that there was something in the modular vein that had a future to it.

And yeah, I can see how the UI would put people off; its pretty much an exercise in how to do things most conveniently for the programmers but least conveniently for the user.
Still, if you want abstract PM, its the only fully modular PM--style-thingy out there, I think, and as such gives a fairly broad scope for the abstract.

[pdxindy]

I guess it could be close to what we are looking for if it would see a bit more love from AAS. I love Chromaphone and to a lesser degree String Studio, but Tassman somehow didn't grab me...
And it somehow feels very dated.

Maybe Version 5 will get a fresh new face and some other improvements...
Could become a winner I guess.

Cheers,

Tom

I don't know if Tassman 5 will ever materialize... String Studio is one of my all time favorites and I so like the various modules and the way you can 'degrade' the sound in a manner that sounds like the 'real world' in character

[aMUSEd]

I still think Harm Visser's Tassman collection is the best collection of PM patches available. I prefer them to anything I have heard String Studio make - although Chromaphone is surprisingly versatile.

I quite like the Tassman main interface - reminds me somewhat of some of the Eurorack modules like Modcam. The builder interface is rather minimal though and the fact that you can't test out sounds in realtime is a bit of a pain.

[fmr]

Well, if AAS is reading this - YOU MUST RELEASE A VERSION 5 OF TASSMAN, with a modern, more user friednly GUI. Tassman totally deserves it. It's like "their" Reaktor. I bet they test all the other instruments they build in Tassman, like NI does.
And I also want a modular PM based synth. More modules would be welcome, but if not, at least update the whole program, like you did with Lounge Lizard and Ultra Analog.

[whyterabbyt]

An electric guitar is still a guitar... any physical instrument can be electrified

My point, though is that a model of an electric guitar isn't just a model of the acoustic behaviour. Im pretty sure any guitarist would agree that the electromagnetic pickups are pretty important to its sonic characteristics.

As I said, it is my impression that most users (and that includes myself), when they hear the term physical modeling, think of modeling the sound of actual vibrating objects (acoustic meaning no electricity is needed for them to produce the initial sound)... a plucked string, a reed vibrating from the passage of air, a struck tine and so on.

I'd agree with you; they do. But I think they'd also agree that Lounge Lizard was physically modelled. Electromagnetism and all. And Xhun claim Iron Axe, an electric guitar emulation is 'physically modelled' so I reckon anyone who'd heard of that would accept that it is too.

[aMUSEd]

More modules would be welcome, but if not, at least update the whole program, like you did with Lounge Lizard and Ultra Analog.

Personally I hope not like Ultra Analog - the new interface is dreadful.

[pdxindy]

I still think Harm Visser's Tassman collection is the best collection of PM patches available. I prefer them to anything I have heard String Studio make - although Chromaphone is surprisingly versatile.

I quite like the Tassman main interface - reminds me somewhat of some of the Eurorack modules like Modcam. The builder interface is rather minimal though and the fact that you can't test out sounds in realtime is a bit of a pain.

I much prefer String Studio cause it has the Damper and Termination modules and there is no equivalent in Tassman. Also, You can modulate Excitor parameters in String Studio that cannot be modulated in Tassman. String Studio is far more expressive while playing for these reasons.

[pdxindy]

An electric guitar is still a guitar... any physical instrument can be electrified

My point, though is that a model of an electric guitar isn't just a model of the acoustic behaviour. Im pretty sure any guitarist would agree that the electromagnetic pickups are pretty important to its sonic characteristics.

Sure, and there is some circuit modeling to go along with the physical modeling to represent the electronic part of it...

Diva is not a physical modeled synth...

[fmr]

Diva is not a physical modeled synth...

Why not? I guess Urs could make some light on this, but if he is emulating specific circuits using mathematical models, as I think he did, that may be considered like "Physical Modeling", IMO.

What would you classify it?

[whyterabbyt]

An electric guitar is still a guitar... any physical instrument can be electrified

My point, though is that a model of an electric guitar isn't just a model of the acoustic behaviour. Im pretty sure any guitarist would agree that the electromagnetic pickups are pretty important to its sonic characteristics.

Sure, and there is some circuit modeling to go along with the physical modeling to represent the electronic part of it...

So there'd be acoustic, electronic, and electromagnetic modelling going on. A hybrid of three subcategories of model.

But accepted as 'physical modelled' to most people.

Diva is not a physical modeled synth...

Well, its entirely possible Urs thinks it is, depending on how its algorithms were written, and whether he subscribes to your sorta localised layman's use of the term that is variably restricted to just acoustic models, or just electro-acoustic models or some hybrids as long as they're not 'too' electronic (or whatever it now resolves to), or the broader one which might also include electronic circuit modelling too.
That'd be his call, somewhat.

[BBFG#]

Yep, forgot about the Lizard, which I like much more than the XLN electric pianos.
Again, it just sounds/feels more responsive. TBH though, I use the ones in my Kronos as the go-to electric. And yes, it's a modeled engine. I like Tassman, but like others have said, the GUI kind of turns me off. Chromaphone lacks pitch/mod controls. String Studio is my favorite of the AAS line.