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DUNE 2 is out now!!

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Arksun
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936 posts since 28 May, 2002, from UK

Postby Arksun; Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:42 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

recursive one wrote:
When I started to dissect Dune's stock precets I thought that Dune2 is aimed at recreating this approach with the synth itself, i.e. constructing huge patches by layering thin and basic sounding components. On the one hand - why not if it works and people are used to this? On the other hand today the plugin creators have enough DSP knowledge to make plugins sounding as fat, big, sweet etc as the classic hardware synths and we have enough CPU power to run them so why clutter the mix with hundreds of layers if one can use fewer but better sounding synths/layers.


Because there is no written law that states the ultimate level of any synth sound is to recreate simple (yet fat sounding) single saw or square waves from ye oldy modular analog synths. That's an incredibly narrow view of what the possibilities of sound can be. I get that thats all some producers want, just square or saw waves with interesting filter movement and a kind of warm buzzy juicy tone to it, but this is absolutely not what all producers want, and there's so many fantastic intricate interesting sounds out there that go beyond that.

Have multiple layers isn't just about making incredibly complex sounding stuff (though that in itself can be useful!), its about adding all the little subtle elements that work cohesively to make one very interesting singular sound.

It just boggles my mind that Dasheesh is arguing to make a synth less capable, even though this extra capability is not adding any confusing complexity nor is it increasing cpu power for all presets, just because the kind of sounds he personally likes to make never involve more than 1 layer :dog:
Arksun
Music Producer | Sound Designer
www.arksun-sound.com
AnX
KVRAF
 
2006 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Postby AnX; Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:54 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Arksun wrote:
It just boggles my mind that Dasheesh is arguing to make a synth less capable, even though this extra capability is not adding any confusing complexity nor is it increasing cpu power for all presets, just because the kind of sounds he personally likes to make never involve more than 1 layer :dog:


He's an ignorant troll, what do you expect? :wink:
recursive one
KVRAF
 
2963 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:21 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Arksun wrote:
recursive one wrote:
When I started to dissect Dune's stock precets I thought that Dune2 is aimed at recreating this approach with the synth itself, i.e. constructing huge patches by layering thin and basic sounding components. On the one hand - why not if it works and people are used to this? On the other hand today the plugin creators have enough DSP knowledge to make plugins sounding as fat, big, sweet etc as the classic hardware synths and we have enough CPU power to run them so why clutter the mix with hundreds of layers if one can use fewer but better sounding synths/layers.


Because there is no written law that states the ultimate level of any synth sound is to recreate simple (yet fat sounding) single saw or square waves from ye oldy modular analog synths. That's an incredibly narrow view of what the possibilities of sound can be. I get that thats all some producers want, just square or saw waves with interesting filter movement and a kind of warm buzzy juicy tone to it, but this is absolutely not what all producers want, and there's so many fantastic intricate interesting sounds out there that go beyond that.

Have multiple layers isn't just about making incredibly complex sounding stuff (though that in itself can be useful!), its about adding all the little subtle elements that work cohesively to make one very interesting singular sound.

Sure, layering may be quite useful and it's use is not restricted to stacking tons of saws to get a fat sound. I do use layered sounds myself, I also see the benefits of doing this within a synth and not in the DAW in case the synth has global controls influencing all layers. E.g. I like how it is implemented in Parawave Rapid, where layering is not mixed up with global unison (TBH, I find such a design in Dune somehow confusing) and where you have several macro controls which may be assigned to various things in different layers.

But I don't see whay there should be either layering or simple sounds made of saw waves with buzzy feeling. There are many synths that sound big and powerful with many subtle interesting details in the sound within just one layer/instance and which go far beyond simple waves. TBH, to my ears Dune2 is somehow on the thin side unless you start adding layers or unison voices.

Btw the demosongs for your Dune presets sound really lovely :tu: (though I wouldn't expect anything less than awesome from the guy who has made Arisen)
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wagtunes
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8734 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:34 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Dune 2 is one of the best sounding synths out there.

I don't know what some of you guys are hearing.
recursive one
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2963 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:36 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!


Ouch... Indeed.

I thought at that time there was only EBM (electronic body music), like Front Line Assembly etc. Way too many abbreviations :(
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starflakeprj
KVRian
 
537 posts since 28 Feb, 2015

Postby starflakeprj; Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:42 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

wagtunes wrote:Dune 2 is one of the best sounding synths out there.

I don't know what some of you guys are hearing.


I agree, it has more "oomph" than most other synth plugins I own.
Neon Breath
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2491 posts since 15 Sep, 2010

Postby Neon Breath; Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:16 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Using the layers only to fatten the sound… :hihi:

Obviously some of you totally miss the point on the purpose of the layer stack system.
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Richard_Synapse
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760 posts since 19 Dec, 2010

Postby Richard_Synapse; Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:25 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

recursive one wrote:But I don't see whay there should be either layering or simple sounds made of saw waves with buzzy feeling. There are many synths that sound big and powerful with many subtle interesting details in the sound within just one layer/instance and which go far beyond simple waves.


Certainly. This is true for a single layer of DUNE 2 as well (and even more so for DUNE 3). But most sound designers want more, more and more features/capabilities... rarely ever less :hihi: And of course there is good reasons for this.

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
Neon Breath
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2491 posts since 15 Sep, 2010

Postby Neon Breath; Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:48 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

If you think or find that the layer system is useless for you, then just don't use it and case close. Does it really matter that it's there and probably useful for the others? I never use step sequencing in a synth, and I don't whine about it just cause it's there. I simple leave it there and don't use it, aware that it's a feature some other people might use...
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recursive one
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2963 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:58 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Neon Breath wrote:If you think or find that the layer system is useless for you, then just don't use it and case close. Does it really matter that it's there and probably useful for the others? I never use step sequencing in a synth, and I don't whine about it just cause it's there. I simple leave it there and don't use it, aware that it's a feature some other people might use...

I think you missed the point of the discussion. That's not about "I don't use layers so why on earth would anyone need them?". It's about focusing on layered structure of a synth should not lead to making the individal layers sound worse than they could because of simplifed/less CPU intensive algorithms. At least this is how I understood the Dasheesh's post and I agree with him.
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Arksun
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936 posts since 28 May, 2002, from UK

Postby Arksun; Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:13 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

recursive one wrote:
Neon Breath wrote:If you think or find that the layer system is useless for you, then just don't use it and case close. Does it really matter that it's there and probably useful for the others? I never use step sequencing in a synth, and I don't whine about it just cause it's there. I simple leave it there and don't use it, aware that it's a feature some other people might use...

I think you missed the point of the discussion. That's not about "I don't use layers so why on earth would anyone need them?". It's about focusing on layered structure of a synth should not lead to making the individal layers sound worse than they could because of simplifed/less CPU intensive algorithms. At least this is how I understood the Dasheesh's post and I agree with him.


That's not really how his posts came across, he seemed to focus very much on simply not ever needing more than a single layer. Pretty clear in his wording. But even if that was the point he was actually trying to make, given the lush thick warm sound Dune2 possesses largely thanks to the wonderful snap of the analog mode envelopes and those stunning filters this is hardly a concern, besides, once you've written the algorithms for 1 layer, you already have the same identical algorithms to use for the other layers, its an absolute non-issue in that regard :)

I do have to commend them for making such excellent sounding filters for relatively low cpu hit, this is a good thing!
Arksun
Music Producer | Sound Designer
www.arksun-sound.com
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Richard_Synapse
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760 posts since 19 Dec, 2010

Postby Richard_Synapse; Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:10 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

recursive one wrote:It's about focusing on layered structure of a synth should not lead to making the individal layers sound worse than they could because of simplifed/less CPU intensive algorithms. At least this is how I understood the Dasheesh's post and I agree with him.


Sure, but a layered structure has no impact on the CPU usage of a single voice. Playing back two layers just requires twice the voices, makes no difference to the engine as such. Or put differently, removing the layered structure would not save any CPU at all.

Furthermore one remark about simplified algorithms, say filters. When crafting complex athmospheric sounds or textures composed of several layers, it is often sufficient to choose a basic filter, rather than some CPU-intensive VA filter emulation. This is because it is often hard to hear any difference in such patches, as there is too much going on. You do have the choice though what filter model to use, so ihmo having flexibility here just adds value, without any cost.

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
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fluffy_little_something
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9776 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:37 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Maybe what some people would like to see is an updated Hydra :wink:
Saukar30
KVRian
 
877 posts since 2 Mar, 2005

Postby Saukar30; Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:36 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

fluffy_little_something wrote:Maybe what some people would like to see is an updated Hydra :wink:


Yassss!!! +1
AnX
KVRAF
 
2006 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Postby AnX; Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:44 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Im pretty sure Dune V1 does everything Hydra did. It may even have had the same WT....
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