KVR Audio

mztk · Post by **mztk** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:26 pm

s'pose you wouldn't even notice it.
seems a bit excessive, 8320..

Richard_Synapse · Post by **Richard_Synapse** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:12 pm

You don't get phasing when oscillators are in random phase. Similar to a huge choir, which doesn't phase, either.

The maximum amount of oscs (8320) is only reached at full polyphony. It may seem high, but then again on most synths it's too low, ie you hit a barrier quickly where you can't go further. As a simple example, suppose you have 30 sawtooths playing and now want to stack that with another 30 oscillators tuned one octave higher, playing a pulse wave. The vast majority of synths will already fail here, but not DUNE 2

And that's just a simple example, you could of course have a dozen layers doing all sorts of stuff, sweeping wavetables or doing FM, and all with lots of unison.

Richard

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:21 pm

Richard_Synapse wrote:You don't get phasing when oscillators are in random phase.

Hm, forgive me if i'm being stupid here, but with that amount of oscillators, don't they have to phase, even with random phase? What i know is that on many synths, the oscillators do phase in unison, even when they are free running.

trimph1 · Post by **trimph1** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:23 pm

I thought they could as well.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:25 pm

chk071 wrote:
Richard_Synapse wrote:You don't get phasing when oscillators are in random phase.
Hm, forgive me if i'm being stupid here, but with that amount of oscillators, don't they have to phase, even with random phase? What i know is that on many synths, the oscillators do phase in unison, even when they are free running.

Yes, you are correct. RIchard... I'm not sure what you're thinking. A chorus...well the whole "chorus effect" is named after it and it's all but messing with the phase of a signal for a lush "choral" like sound. However, in the case of that many oscs, you're just going to mask any "beating" that usually is the signature sound of that kind of phase distortion just due to the really large number of signals.

Touch The Universe · Post by **Touch The Universe** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:26 pm

Wouldn't it be in random phase there is a line in code preventing the same start phase of an osc, ie if 1 is .0001 start then all others can't occupy same start, etc

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:28 pm

But that wouldn't be random phase anymore then.

Touch The Universe · Post by **Touch The Universe** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:29 pm

@zerocrossing you mean the chorus 'sound' is produced by phase cancellations?

Touch The Universe · Post by **Touch The Universe** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:32 pm

chk071 wrote:But that wouldn't be random phase anymore then.

why not? the random phase must set a start point, and once it has, there is a code to prevent all further allocations from 'randomly' occupying the same location

Richard_Synapse · Post by **Richard_Synapse** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:27 pm

To me "phasing" describes the sound you get when starting several oscillators with the same phase, which can sound a bit like a phaser. This doesn't happen when in random phase.

Anyway, I don't see any reason to restrict the number of oscillators or synth voices too much. It doesn't cost any CPU to offer the option, and there's larger choirs in real life (you only need to attend a football game or something). Moreover, there is already a very popular and frequently used synth (hint: hardware) which can emit a large number of oscillators- just not as many as DUNE 2

Richard

DJ Warmonger · Post by **DJ Warmonger** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:10 am

how do you get 8320 oscillators without phasing?!

I would invert this question: how would you get 8320 oscilators phasing? This woudl require most of them have same pitch and waveform, which is not possible if we aim at 8320 different oscillators. The chance you notice any phase relation between them is zero.

Nighthawk77 · Post by **Nighthawk77** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:42 am

Richard_Synapse wrote:To me "phasing" describes the sound you get when starting several oscillators with the same phase, which can sound a bit like a phaser. This doesn't happen when in random phase.

Anyway, I don't see any reason to restrict the number of oscillators or synth voices too much. It doesn't cost any CPU to offer the option, and there's larger choirs in real life (you only need to attend a football game or something). Moreover, there is already a very popular and frequently used synth (hint: hardware) which can emit a large number of oscillators- just not as many as DUNE 2

Richard

The term "phasing" has gotten a bad rep in audio production circles.
In reality, it has multiple meanings.
In synthesis, it essentially offers a much broader range of options.
Options are always good.

fluffy_little_something · Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:59 am

I agree it is excessive. My default synth has 2 oscillator banks with 7 osc's each, i.e. up to 14 osc's per voice. That is already way too dense for almost any sound. I only have one patch where I use all 14 osc's, a huge pad. But really, when I use it, I have to turn it down quite a bit so that it does not suffocate the rest of the music.

Richard_Synapse · Post by **Richard_Synapse** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:39 am

It depends on what kind of sounds or music you make. There's plenty of patches in DUNE 2 which use 32 oscs per bank and they sound just fine. Furthermore, it is important to keep in mind that not all banks necessarily do the same thing at all. A bank might only synthesize the transient for instance, or use a different waveform or pitch. Plenty of examples in the factory doing just that.

Richard

kvaca · Post by **kvaca** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:48 pm

DJ Warmonger wrote:
how do you get 8320 oscillators without phasing?!
I would invert this question: how would you get 8320 oscilators phasing? This woudl require most of them have same pitch and waveform, which is not possible if we aim at 8320 different oscillators. The chance you notice any phase relation between them is zero.

maybe stupid question,but Im just curious-which instrument is capable of playing 8320 different waveforms in different pitch at same time?

Dune: how do you get 8320 oscillators without phasing?!