Best Piano - PIANOTEQ

[fmr]

I'm not a good player and so i might be dissqualified to judge. But especially for more non standard pianos i find there is nothing in Pianoteq which could please me (f.e. something like the wing tack piano in Keyscape).
At the end there is no best software piano tool for everyone as there is no best real piano for everyone.

I agree that in the end there is no best software piano tool for everyone. Some piano styles (for example, I came across a thread in Gearslutz where they performed an extensive comaprison that basically spanned ALL the libraries available in the market, including the most expensive ones) they used a (IMO rather dull) ballad piano accompaniment small piece, which in no way could push the piano to its boundaries, and would not show any flaws in dynamics and expressiveness, simply because the piece lacks in those chapters. But for someone that basically plays in that style, the conclusions may be more important than when we are discussing the real boundaries of a real acoustic grand.

The same applies to your "wing tack piano". That's a modified piano. If that's what you're looking for, no regular piano library will fulfill your needs.

[Cinebient]

I'm not a good player and so i might be dissqualified to judge. But especially for more non standard pianos i find there is nothing in Pianoteq which could please me (f.e. something like the wing tack piano in Keyscape).
At the end there is no best software piano tool for everyone as there is no best real piano for everyone.

I agree that in the end there is no best software piano tool for everyone. Some piano styles (for example, I came across a thread in Gearslutz where they performed an extensive comaprison that basically spanned ALL the libraries available in the market, including the most expensive ones) they used a (IMO rather dull) ballad piano accompaniment small piece, which in now way could push the piano to its boundaries, and would not show any flaws in dynamics and expressiveness, simply because the piece lacks in those chapters. But for someone that basically plays in that style, the conclusions may be more important than when we are discussing the real boundaries of a real acoustic grand.

The same applies to your "wing tack piano". That's a modified piano. If that's what you're looking for, no regular piano library will fulfill your needs.

Yes, but it´s a real acoustic instrument and it has a fantastic character for me. Sure it is my personal flavour and i love those things. I just thought it might be possible to build those pianos with Pianoteq but it seems there are also limits in physical modelling of course and there is no way around to record such instruments to catch (a part) of it´s unique character.
But you are right, i´m searching more for this kind of rare prepared, tacked, whatever pianos and Pianoteq might more suited to more traditionell things.
So in this case Keyscape is my "personal" best piano.
But i saw that there is mainly the C7 judged in many threads, so you might be right that most people looking for traditionell pianos rather than looking for what unique things are included there.
And i would agree that the C7 in Keyscape sounds awesome but it doesn´t impress me more than other libraries or the Pianoteq models.
A few weeks ago i saw a few you-tube videos where people performe on some of the oldest pianos and key instruments which still exist. They often sounds really imperfect but what a damn great character those instruments have. It seems all lost today sometimes.

[fmr]

Yes, but it´s a real acoustic instrument and it has a fantastic character for me. Sure it is my personal flavour and i love those things. I just thought it might be possible to build those pianos with Pianoteq but it seems there are also limits in physical modelling of course and there is no way around to record such instruments to catch (a part) of it´s unique character.
But you are right, i´m searching more for this kind of rare prepared, tacked, whatever pianos and Pianoteq might more suited to more traditionell things.

Oh I disagree. I believe that Pianoteq CAN come up with a good "transformed piano". That model simply doesn't exist (yet), probably because that's not the kind of market Pianoteq is aiming for. Maybe in the future, if they will seek to spread their audience, they will come up with more specialized models like that one.

For what I heard in the demos, the C7 in Keyscape seems to be nothing special. A good sampled piano, but with limitations. Within the regular boundaries of the usual jazz and ballad piano, it sounds good, but when pressed to the extremes, it seems to lack what I mentioned before: dynamics, expressiveness and depth.

[nineofkings]

Further complicating things is the fact that a recording of a piano is also a snapshot of the real thing, and not the thing itself. Should a virtual piano sound like a piano, or like a recording of a piano?

[fmr]

Further complicating things is the fact that a recording of a piano is also a snapshot of the real thing, and not the thing itself. Should a virtual piano sound like a piano, or like a recording of a piano?

If you want a virtual piano to "sound" like a real acoustic piano in a hall, then you are doomed, IMO. The piano produces sound by diffusing lots of complex sound waves through its body. To emulate that, you would need a very complex system of loudspeakers, positioned in a rather complex way around the keyboard that is playing. That's something where the video posted failed, IMO. They tried to compare the sound of a virtual piano diffused by a pair of loudspeakers with the sound of a real piano, diffused in the rather complex way I mentioned.

I'd say that I am already happy if a virtual piano sounds like a "recorded" real piano in a piece I use it. After all, it is aimed at that - to replace the recording of a real piano. Pretending that it will replace a real Acoustic Grand in a concert hall is WAY TOO MUCH to ask. First one has to devise a way to consistently create a diffusing system of loudspeakers that will properly emulate the way a real piano sound is diffused through the same hall.

The problem is that the sample libraries many times don't even sound like a recording of a real piano, but as a recording of a recording.

[EvilDragon]

Pianoteq Pro, you can adjust each and every key up to n-th harmonic, completely transforming the sound. And adjust more than 20 other modeling parameters, per key, as well. So, it's possible to transform the sound tremendously.

[fmr]

Pianoteq Pro, you can adjust each and every key up to n-th harmonic, completely transforming the sound. And adjust more than 20 other modeling parameters, per key, as well. So, it's possible to transform the sound tremendously.

Yes, I'm aware. But I am talking about diffusing the sound in a hall. This has nothing to do with the instrument anymore, but with the sound system itself (amplification, number, kind and type of loudspeakers, positioning, etc.). In a real acoustic grand piano, the "sound amplification and diffusion" so to speak, are built-in and very complex.

Two excelent links (IMO): One regarding tips on recording a piano (take attention especially to the comments and answer by the author - they are more enlightening, IMO, than the article itself, although in it he focus on the different miking tecxhniques, and explain what they are for, and the consequences they have in the natural sound of the piano - that's exactly these consequences that are further discussed in the comments below) - https://theproaudiofiles.com/tips-for-s ... no-part-i/

The other is about the anatomy of the piano, and may help some people who, apparently, are not completely aware of the specific characteristics of an acoustic grand: http://www.pianonoise.com/Article.Piano.htm

[EvilDragon]

Was talking to Cinebient about that, I know you're aware

[Cinebient]

Pianoteq Pro, you can adjust each and every key up to n-th harmonic, completely transforming the sound. And adjust more than 20 other modeling parameters, per key, as well. So, it's possible to transform the sound tremendously.

I know but sadly i can´t demo the pro version and i didn´t find any demos, videos or sound examples which shows of if it can create a real organic sounding tacked or prepared instrument like real samples.
F.e. i find the Glockenspiel and some other modelled instruments sounds not really organic compared to e few real sampled instruments i tryed, heard and own myself. Even if you could have 128 velocity layers and stuff with Pianoteq it doesn´t sound close to a real organic sound for me.
In this case i also compared it to a real Glockenspiel i have
But it´s a bit off topic....back to piano.
Pianoteq is a great tool for sure but is it the best piano? Sometimes, sometimes not

[crystalmsc]

Just added the Bluthner and U4 to the collections. Both now are my favorite pair, especially for composing. While Bluthner is bold sounding with a great low end, triggers idea for instrumental track. The U4 has that intimate Japanese piano feel that inspires lyric based song. I'm getting so far away from the rompler world for piano. Anyone who are having a less satisfactory result, don't forget to calibrate your controller several times. I've had my best result after the 5th attempts.

[martinjuenke]

@cinebient Have a look at Soniccouture Xtended Piano, that's for the crazy side of keys. At least I'm addicted to it

[Alex Cremers]

I have been wanting to love Pianoteq for years, but for the life of me it just doesn't sound as good to my ears as my favorite sampled piano libraries. For lack of better words, it just sounds somewhat "plasticky" or "synthetic" to my ears. I have no doubt that it will keep getting better and better with every new version, but I still think it's going to be 5 or 10 more years before it sounds as good as the real deal.

Pianoteq does get better and better ... but it's still a slow process. In 10 years, they might get there. For now, some regions sound good but there are always a few notes in the mid region that I want to avoid.

[Cinebient]

@cinebient Have a look at Soniccouture Xtended Piano, that's for the crazy side of keys. At least I'm addicted to it

Damn you
I have to take this to my wishlist as well now.
Looks like my cup of tea. Microtuning per key/octave...what i want too.
Well, going to play the lottery today....

[martinjuenke]

@cinebient Have a look at Soniccouture Xtended Piano, that's for the crazy side of keys. At least I'm addicted to it

Damn you
I have to take this to my wishlist as well now.
Looks like my cup of tea. Microtuning per key/octave...what i want too.
Well, going to play the lottery today....

[crystalmsc]

For lack of better words, it just sounds somewhat "plasticky" or "synthetic" to my ears.

Pianoteq does get better and better ...

Just upgraded to the Studio Bundle, the pro version is amazing with a detail editing compared to the stage. The Sound Recording output is what's been missing all this time. It has a detail microphone setting and made all the presets sounds better imho. Used to feel that synthetic sound with the Stage, but not anymore.

I have a new favorite, the YC5 which has that Yamaha sound I've been looking for. Didn't really like the demo on Stage before, but it sounds different now. Also the Hohner is amazing, especially the low register. The same with EPs, after adjusting the tine's noise it's becoming much better now. To get the most it's recommended to at least upgrade to the Standard version, the extra parameters are worth it.