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Teksonik
KVRAF
 
11424 posts since 15 Sep, 2001, from Las Vegas,USA
AnX wrote:As the MM has none of those, "better" is not relevant.


It's just as relevant as to whether or not The Legend sounds like the MiniMoog. But in this case it doesn't work both ways....the MiniMoog will never sound like the The Legend. The MM is an evolutionary dead end as are all the hardware analogs. The Legend is the next step in evolution. Ever forward..... :arrow:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
AnX
KVRAF
 
2884 posts since 17 Nov, 2015
Teksonik wrote:
AnX wrote:As the MM has none of those, "better" is not relevant.


It's just as relevant as to whether or not The Legend sounds like the MiniMoog.


No, it isnt. Its nothing to do with emulating the sound of a MM.
kmonkey
KVRAF
 
3864 posts since 17 Aug, 2004
AnX wrote:
No, it isnt. Its nothing to do with emulating the sound of a MM.


Man i by accident pressed "Display this post" and i soon realized why you are on my ignore list.

Your bickering in all threads with most of the people is so boring. Why don't you just stop trolling? Go away and miss your points in other forum please? Just for a day or two?

Allow us to enjoy Viper release by not reading about your piano and moog missed points..
chk071
KVRAF
 
16799 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany
AnX wrote:
Teksonik wrote:Yep the Unison on a MiniMoog is far better than that found on The Legend. The 4 note polyphony of the hardware MiniMoog is impressive as well. :wink:

The question shouldn't be can the software emulate the hardware but can the hardware emulate the software......of course not.


As the MM has none of those, "better" is not relevant.

Noise hum and tuning drift are an absolute pain in the arse, but devs seem to think its an important part of the sound. Ask anyone who used/uses old hardware and they will tell you these things are not "better".

On the other hand, most people who are fond of analog synths and their sound, will tell you these are exactly the things which makes a synthesizer sound "musical", and not sterile. Maybe not noise hum so much, but, oscillator drift for sure. And, i tend to agree. The synthesizers which model have, by default, a more pleasant tone to them, because they vary ever so slightly. Or the ones which model a tad of saturation in the filter, or the signal path. Take a sine wave, or a sawtooth wave, which doesn't drift, and it just sounds plain boring. Add a bit of drift, and it already can sound interesting, using only one oscillator. So, IMO, developers should model as much as possible from these things, without focusing on the things which aren't so pleasant, or which don't contribute much to the character. Noise, for example, is something which doesn't need to be modelled IMO, because you can ALWAYS add that with a noise generator. But, if you have it by default, you can't just switch it off, if you don't need or want it.
AnX
KVRAF
 
2884 posts since 17 Nov, 2015
kmonkey wrote:
AnX wrote:
No, it isnt. Its nothing to do with emulating the sound of a MM.


Man i by accident pressed "Display this post" and i soon realized why you are on my ignore list.

Your bickering in all threads with most of the people is so boring. Why don't you just stop trolling? Go away and miss your points in other forum please? Just for a day or two?

Allow us to enjoy Viper release by not reading about your piano and moog missed points..


1. This isnt the viper thread
2. If im on your ignore list, ignore me.

Bye :tu:
AnX
KVRAF
 
2884 posts since 17 Nov, 2015
chk071 wrote:
AnX wrote:
Teksonik wrote:Yep the Unison on a MiniMoog is far better than that found on The Legend. The 4 note polyphony of the hardware MiniMoog is impressive as well. :wink:

The question shouldn't be can the software emulate the hardware but can the hardware emulate the software......of course not.


As the MM has none of those, "better" is not relevant.

Noise hum and tuning drift are an absolute pain in the arse, but devs seem to think its an important part of the sound. Ask anyone who used/uses old hardware and they will tell you these things are not "better".

On the other hand, most people who are fond of analog synths and their sound, will tell you these are exactly the things which makes a synthesizer sound "musical", and not sterile..


Well, im of an age where i was brought up on these. Let me tell you, playing live with some stuff that drifted alot, was no fun at all. I prefer to be in tune (sterile...) than sound like im playing the wrong notes :wink:
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fmr
KVRAF
 
7446 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal
AnX wrote: Well, im of an age where i was brought up on these. Let me tell you, playing live with some stuff that drifted alot, was no fun at all. I prefer to be in tune (sterile...) than sound like im playing the wrong notes :wink:

Me too. I think that only those that never used analog synths think that was what makes them sound "analog". It isn't, and it doesn't. It makes them sound bad (awfully bad). Fortunately, my MKS-80 (which sometimes drifts really bad) has a button that says AUTO TUNE :hihi:

A very slight amount of "drifting" may be desirable, but you easily achieve the same effect by slightly detune one oscillagtor against the other.
Fernando (FMR)
chk071
KVRAF
 
16799 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany
AnX wrote:
chk071 wrote:
AnX wrote:
Teksonik wrote:Yep the Unison on a MiniMoog is far better than that found on The Legend. The 4 note polyphony of the hardware MiniMoog is impressive as well. :wink:

The question shouldn't be can the software emulate the hardware but can the hardware emulate the software......of course not.


As the MM has none of those, "better" is not relevant.

Noise hum and tuning drift are an absolute pain in the arse, but devs seem to think its an important part of the sound. Ask anyone who used/uses old hardware and they will tell you these things are not "better".

On the other hand, most people who are fond of analog synths and their sound, will tell you these are exactly the things which makes a synthesizer sound "musical", and not sterile..


Well, im of an age where i was brought up on these. Let me tell you, playing live with some stuff that drifted alot, was no fun at all. I prefer to be in tune (sterile...) than sound like im playing the wrong notes :wink:

I get that. And, i think that most people know the video of Jean Michel Jarre tuning his Minimoog on stage. :D Still, i think the way most soft synths, or VA's model oscillator drift can quite add to the sound. And, if you don't want that, you can just turn it off. At least that's the way how it is on Spire or Monark.

fmr wrote:A very slight amount of "drifting" may be desirable, but you easily achieve the same effect by slightly detune one oscillagtor against the other.


AFAIK (someone correct me if i'm wrong), analog oscillator drift doesn't work like a LFO on the pitch, but rather randomly alters the pitch. So, it may sound similar, but, it's not quite the same.
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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
 
11890 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:14 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

One can use an LFO and the random or sample&hold waveform for modulating the pitch, I occasionally do that in Sylenth1. The result is similar to Phonec :hihi:
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
9271 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area
Ingonator wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:The digital synths were rather compact, not as bulky as analog synths, and they had Midi, stable pitch, patch memories etc., things that make daily usage much more comfortable.


Well, one main reason to sell my real Minimoog Model D back in 2005 was the lack of patch memory and MIDI (while sound wise it was indeed awesome...). At the beginning this was no big problem but after a while the lack of patch memory and MIDI was a major PITA...
With some parameters even small differences could make a difference in the sound so replicating patches from patch sheets (or photos of the knob settings...) could be really tricky in several cases.
As i mentioned several times Synapse Audio The Legend finally is a perfect replacement for me and has several useful additions compared to the real thing (independent of the usual advantages of using a plugin instead of hardware).

Besides that many of the new/newer analog synths got the advantages you mentioned too.
For example both my Naovation Bass Station 2 and Waldorf Pulse 2 are small (also due to using much smaller SMD components for the circuits instead of full size ones), have a stable pitch (both use DCOs which does NOT mean the oscillators are fully digital!!!), MIDI (both standard MIDI and USB) and patch memory.
Both are also capable of using velocity and aftertouch for modulation purposes.

Though I never owned a Model D, that’s pretty much my take on things. I went into synthesis with little regard for the underlying tech. Could I make cool sounds with it? I’m in! To me, the effects I ran synths in were just as big a part of it as the synth itself. When I got some cash in my pocket, digital was king, and while I liked the sound, the biggest reason I bought a TS-10 was for the ability to do entire productions with it. I’m totally sure I never even asked if any of the guts were analog. I didn’t care. But, when analog started to come back into vogue, I did remember back to my early days and think, “yeah, I am missing that.” The problem was, the TS-10 stretched me out. It was hard to go backwards in a lot of ways, including the ones you mentioned. Aftertouch just became part of how I interacted with a synth and now when I play one that does not use it, it feels like it’s broken. So, things like Legend really open up the world to me because I can get a taste of that vintage vibe, but also maintain my style of playing.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
 
845 posts since 19 Dec, 2010
chk071 wrote:AFAIK (someone correct me if i'm wrong), analog oscillator drift doesn't work like a LFO on the pitch, but rather randomly alters the pitch. So, it may sound similar, but, it's not quite the same.


Yes, correct. There is no regular pattern in analog drift, it is random.

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
11957 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany
Richard_Synapse wrote:
chk071 wrote:AFAIK (someone correct me if i'm wrong), analog oscillator drift doesn't work like a LFO on the pitch, but rather randomly alters the pitch. So, it may sound similar, but, it's not quite the same.


Yes, correct. There is no regular pattern in analog drift, it is random.

Richard


When i did a polyphonoc version of U-He Repro-1 (which soon with the upcoming Repro-5 should not be longer necessary...) using multiple instances and the "Polymind" Max 4 Live plugin in Live 9 i also added/routed Max 4 Live LFO modules to each instance that slightly detuned the instances using a "random" LFO shape (not a fixed shape).

I had used the same "trick" to create polyphonic Unison with The Legend. In the 4-voice Unison mode The Legend is monophonic (opposing to the poly mode).
Ingo Weidner
notebook: HP Omen 15.6" / Win 10 Home 64-bit / i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM / 256GB SSD + 1TB HDD (internal) // audio: Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 (2nd gen)
DAWs: Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 // controller: Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1
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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
 
845 posts since 19 Dec, 2010
Ingonator wrote:When i did a polyphonoc version of U-He Repro-1 (which soon with the upcoming Repro-5 should not be longer necessary...) using multiple instances and the "Polymind" Max 4 Live plugin in Live 9 i also added/routed Max 4 Live LFO modules to each instance that slightly detuned the instances using a "random" LFO shape (not a fixed shape).


Yes, the behavior can be emulated with a slow LFO set to some random shape (e.g. S+H or S+G, I quite like the latter for smooth transitions).

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
v1o
KVRian
 
1073 posts since 1 Oct, 2004
fmr wrote:
AnX wrote: Well, im of an age where i was brought up on these. Let me tell you, playing live with some stuff that drifted alot, was no fun at all. I prefer to be in tune (sterile...) than sound like im playing the wrong notes :wink:

Me too. I think that only those that never used analog synths think that was what makes them sound "analog". It isn't, and it doesn't. It makes them sound bad (awfully bad). Fortunately, my MKS-80 (which sometimes drifts really bad) has a button that says AUTO TUNE :hihi:

A very slight amount of "drifting" may be desirable, but you easily achieve the same effect by slightly detune one oscillagtor against the other.

Many modern analogue synths are criticised for sounding too digital because they are too accurate and don’t have enough slop.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2
AnX
KVRAF
 
2884 posts since 17 Nov, 2015
v1o wrote:Many modern analogue synths are criticised for sounding too digital because they are too accurate and don’t have enough slop.


By who? Not musicians, thats for sure.
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