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AnX
KVRAF
 
2006 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Postby AnX; Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:41 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

chk071 wrote:
AnX wrote:
Teksonik wrote:Yep the Unison on a MiniMoog is far better than that found on The Legend. The 4 note polyphony of the hardware MiniMoog is impressive as well. :wink:

The question shouldn't be can the software emulate the hardware but can the hardware emulate the software......of course not.


As the MM has none of those, "better" is not relevant.

Noise hum and tuning drift are an absolute pain in the arse, but devs seem to think its an important part of the sound. Ask anyone who used/uses old hardware and they will tell you these things are not "better".

On the other hand, most people who are fond of analog synths and their sound, will tell you these are exactly the things which makes a synthesizer sound "musical", and not sterile..


Well, im of an age where i was brought up on these. Let me tell you, playing live with some stuff that drifted alot, was no fun at all. I prefer to be in tune (sterile...) than sound like im playing the wrong notes :wink:
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fmr
KVRAF
 
6257 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:12 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

AnX wrote: Well, im of an age where i was brought up on these. Let me tell you, playing live with some stuff that drifted alot, was no fun at all. I prefer to be in tune (sterile...) than sound like im playing the wrong notes :wink:

Me too. I think that only those that never used analog synths think that was what makes them sound "analog". It isn't, and it doesn't. It makes them sound bad (awfully bad). Fortunately, my MKS-80 (which sometimes drifts really bad) has a button that says AUTO TUNE :hihi:

A very slight amount of "drifting" may be desirable, but you easily achieve the same effect by slightly detune one oscillagtor against the other.
Fernando (FMR)
chk071
KVRAF
 
13533 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:52 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

AnX wrote:
chk071 wrote:
AnX wrote:
Teksonik wrote:Yep the Unison on a MiniMoog is far better than that found on The Legend. The 4 note polyphony of the hardware MiniMoog is impressive as well. :wink:

The question shouldn't be can the software emulate the hardware but can the hardware emulate the software......of course not.


As the MM has none of those, "better" is not relevant.

Noise hum and tuning drift are an absolute pain in the arse, but devs seem to think its an important part of the sound. Ask anyone who used/uses old hardware and they will tell you these things are not "better".

On the other hand, most people who are fond of analog synths and their sound, will tell you these are exactly the things which makes a synthesizer sound "musical", and not sterile..


Well, im of an age where i was brought up on these. Let me tell you, playing live with some stuff that drifted alot, was no fun at all. I prefer to be in tune (sterile...) than sound like im playing the wrong notes :wink:

I get that. And, i think that most people know the video of Jean Michel Jarre tuning his Minimoog on stage. :D Still, i think the way most soft synths, or VA's model oscillator drift can quite add to the sound. And, if you don't want that, you can just turn it off. At least that's the way how it is on Spire or Monark.

fmr wrote:A very slight amount of "drifting" may be desirable, but you easily achieve the same effect by slightly detune one oscillagtor against the other.


AFAIK (someone correct me if i'm wrong), analog oscillator drift doesn't work like a LFO on the pitch, but rather randomly alters the pitch. So, it may sound similar, but, it's not quite the same.
It's not "news" anymore, it's "infotainment".
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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
 
9776 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:14 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

One can use an LFO and the random or sample&hold waveform for modulating the pitch, I occasionally do that in Sylenth1. The result is similar to Phonec :hihi:
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
9005 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:22 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Ingonator wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:The digital synths were rather compact, not as bulky as analog synths, and they had Midi, stable pitch, patch memories etc., things that make daily usage much more comfortable.


Well, one main reason to sell my real Minimoog Model D back in 2005 was the lack of patch memory and MIDI (while sound wise it was indeed awesome...). At the beginning this was no big problem but after a while the lack of patch memory and MIDI was a major PITA...
With some parameters even small differences could make a difference in the sound so replicating patches from patch sheets (or photos of the knob settings...) could be really tricky in several cases.
As i mentioned several times Synapse Audio The Legend finally is a perfect replacement for me and has several useful additions compared to the real thing (independent of the usual advantages of using a plugin instead of hardware).

Besides that many of the new/newer analog synths got the advantages you mentioned too.
For example both my Naovation Bass Station 2 and Waldorf Pulse 2 are small (also due to using much smaller SMD components for the circuits instead of full size ones), have a stable pitch (both use DCOs which does NOT mean the oscillators are fully digital!!!), MIDI (both standard MIDI and USB) and patch memory.
Both are also capable of using velocity and aftertouch for modulation purposes.

Though I never owned a Model D, that’s pretty much my take on things. I went into synthesis with little regard for the underlying tech. Could I make cool sounds with it? I’m in! To me, the effects I ran synths in were just as big a part of it as the synth itself. When I got some cash in my pocket, digital was king, and while I liked the sound, the biggest reason I bought a TS-10 was for the ability to do entire productions with it. I’m totally sure I never even asked if any of the guts were analog. I didn’t care. But, when analog started to come back into vogue, I did remember back to my early days and think, “yeah, I am missing that.” The problem was, the TS-10 stretched me out. It was hard to go backwards in a lot of ways, including the ones you mentioned. Aftertouch just became part of how I interacted with a synth and now when I play one that does not use it, it feels like it’s broken. So, things like Legend really open up the world to me because I can get a taste of that vintage vibe, but also maintain my style of playing.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
 
760 posts since 19 Dec, 2010

Postby Richard_Synapse; Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:09 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

chk071 wrote:AFAIK (someone correct me if i'm wrong), analog oscillator drift doesn't work like a LFO on the pitch, but rather randomly alters the pitch. So, it may sound similar, but, it's not quite the same.


Yes, correct. There is no regular pattern in analog drift, it is random.

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
11362 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:11 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:
chk071 wrote:AFAIK (someone correct me if i'm wrong), analog oscillator drift doesn't work like a LFO on the pitch, but rather randomly alters the pitch. So, it may sound similar, but, it's not quite the same.


Yes, correct. There is no regular pattern in analog drift, it is random.

Richard


When i did a polyphonoc version of U-He Repro-1 (which soon with the upcoming Repro-5 should not be longer necessary...) using multiple instances and the "Polymind" Max 4 Live plugin in Live 9 i also added/routed Max 4 Live LFO modules to each instance that slightly detuned the instances using a "random" LFO shape (not a fixed shape).

I had used the same "trick" to create polyphonic Unison with The Legend. In the 4-voice Unison mode The Legend is monophonic (opposing to the poly mode).
Ingo Weidner - Sound Design
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9 / Studio One 3 / Bitwig 2
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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
 
760 posts since 19 Dec, 2010

Postby Richard_Synapse; Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:15 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Ingonator wrote:When i did a polyphonoc version of U-He Repro-1 (which soon with the upcoming Repro-5 should not be longer necessary...) using multiple instances and the "Polymind" Max 4 Live plugin in Live 9 i also added/routed Max 4 Live LFO modules to each instance that slightly detuned the instances using a "random" LFO shape (not a fixed shape).


Yes, the behavior can be emulated with a slow LFO set to some random shape (e.g. S+H or S+G, I quite like the latter for smooth transitions).

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
v1o
KVRian
 
820 posts since 1 Oct, 2004

Postby v1o; Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:25 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

fmr wrote:
AnX wrote: Well, im of an age where i was brought up on these. Let me tell you, playing live with some stuff that drifted alot, was no fun at all. I prefer to be in tune (sterile...) than sound like im playing the wrong notes :wink:

Me too. I think that only those that never used analog synths think that was what makes them sound "analog". It isn't, and it doesn't. It makes them sound bad (awfully bad). Fortunately, my MKS-80 (which sometimes drifts really bad) has a button that says AUTO TUNE :hihi:

A very slight amount of "drifting" may be desirable, but you easily achieve the same effect by slightly detune one oscillagtor against the other.

Many modern analogue synths are criticised for sounding too digital because they are too accurate and don’t have enough slop.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2
AnX
KVRAF
 
2006 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Postby AnX; Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:30 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

v1o wrote:Many modern analogue synths are criticised for sounding too digital because they are too accurate and don’t have enough slop.


By who? Not musicians, thats for sure.
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fmr
KVRAF
 
6257 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:27 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

AnX wrote:
v1o wrote:Many modern analogue synths are criticised for sounding too digital because they are too accurate and don’t have enough slop.


By who? Not musicians, thats for sure.

I think those who criticize modern synths for being "too accurate" never knew what is a really "inaccurate" synth. The moment they experience how "good" it was in the "old days", I'm sure they would change their opinion. :hihi:
Fernando (FMR)
Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
 
4862 posts since 15 Aug, 2006

Postby Funkybot's Evil Twin; Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:42 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

It's more likely that people's expectations have changed. They want some of the quirks of the slop without any of the hassle, like outright tuning or voice instability. So some slight tuning drift is ok, or even some slight variation in the voices in terms of filters and envelopes can add to the sound in a generally pleasing way. But no one wants oscillators that will lose tuning as the unit heats up or due to humidity. And no one likes having to get the damn things serviced regularly.
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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
 
760 posts since 19 Dec, 2010

Postby Richard_Synapse; Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:04 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:It's more likely that people's expectations have changed. They want some of the quirks of the slop without any of the hassle, like outright tuning or voice instability. So some slight tuning drift is ok, or even some slight variation in the voices in terms of filters and envelopes can add to the sound in a generally pleasing way. But no one wants oscillators that will lose tuning as the unit heats up or due to humidity. And no one likes having to get the damn things serviced regularly.


I think the need for service is the biggest issue of old hardware by far. Tuning problems can usually be fixed in a heartbeat by turning a single knob, but a broken voice is not easily repaired. Furthermore keys, switches and pots usually cause problems after some time, as well as old batteries for certain units.

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
 
9776 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:33 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Makes me wonder, would Synapse Audio buy me a new computer if the battery in Legend leaked and destroyed my motherboard? 8)
Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
 
4862 posts since 15 Aug, 2006

Postby Funkybot's Evil Twin; Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:42 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:I think the need for service is the biggest issue of old hardware by far. Tuning problems can usually be fixed in a heartbeat by turning a single knob, but a broken voice is not easily repaired. Furthermore keys, switches and pots usually cause problems after some time, as well as old batteries for certain units.

Richard


Agreed. Synthesizers and transister organs in particular are the worst offenders in my experience. A 40 year old Wurlitzer EP may run and sound great with minimal maintenance costs, even less so on a passive Rhodes. Electric guitars? Very low cost of ownership. Amps? More costly, but still not unreasonable. Vintage analog synths (and at least Farfisa organs), in particular, just seem horrible in terms of reliability, maintenance, and costs.

I consider The Legend and RePro to be museum quality emulations in how well they preserve the sound and feel of the originals, without all the horrible costs. For that I'm very appreciative. Especially now that I've got a controller (System-8) that allows for hands on programming with minimal mouse clicks. It makes a big difference.
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