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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16015 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:16 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

No host can modulate at audio rate, it's all limited to the audio buffer size - unless the host AND plugin in question support sample accurate automation, which not many actually do.


I would argue that you don't necessarily NEED audio rate modulation if you just want to liven up the sound a little bit (due to the plugin not offering certain modulation possibilities).
Cinebient
KVRAF
 
3299 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:19 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

EvilDragon wrote:No host can modulate at audio rate, it's all limited to the audio buffer size - unless the host AND plugin in question support sample accurate automation, which not many actually do.


I would argue that you don't necessarily NEED audio rate modulation if you just want to liven up the sound a little bit (due to the plugin not offering certain modulation possibilities).


Thank‘s.
And because of that a DAW won‘t replace a modular set-up yet.
Of course i dream for the day where all plug-ins and DAW‘s offer zero delay feedback and audio rate at anything i could imagine :)
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16015 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:16 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Zero delay feedback is impossible in a DAW. In fact, majority of DAWs won't even allow you to have feedback routing - for obvious reasons. Reaper has an option for that, though. :)
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Julien Unison
KVRist
 
235 posts since 9 Oct, 2006

Postby Julien Unison; Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:17 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

nichttuntun wrote:I don't need one. Want one.


Image
U N I S O N : shoegaze / electronic / black metal wall of sound with heavenly voice
https://soundcloud.com/weareunison / https://www.facebook.com/unison666 / https://weareunison.com/
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EnGee
KVRAF
 
4407 posts since 7 Oct, 2005, from NZ

Postby EnGee; Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:19 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

If you have Reason, then you might be interested in the Rack Extension, which has much more modulation inside Reason :love:

The_Legend_RE_Back.png


If you have the VSTi version, you can get the RE version for free, but your license of the VSTi would be NFR (which I didn't' mind and got it because the VSTi is a keeper anyway ;) )
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Win 10 Ryzen 5 1600x PC with Reason 10, Cubase 9 Pro, FL Studio 12 & Reaper 5, nektar P4, Casio PX-5S, AudioBox iTwo and Yamaha HS7
Echoes in the Attic
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5928 posts since 12 May, 2008

Postby Echoes in the Attic; Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:23 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Cinebient wrote:
Echoes in the Attic wrote:Want crazy endless modulation for any synth plugin you want? Get Bitwig.


On a side note, This time limited demo is really annoying. Every once in a while I think, maybe I'll try the Legend again. And then remember oh yeah, my demo period is up. Can't try it again. That is the worse way to make sales I can imagine. I'm no need for a moog since I have Monark, however if I could try the demo every once in a while to see if it filled a gap or did something that I was looking for better than what I have. Time limited demos don' tallow that casual check-in.


But does Bitwig modulate at audio rate?
Simple envelopes and slow LFO‘s might not replace a real modular set-up.


Bitwig does indeed have audio rate modulation though how anplugin parameter handles that is another question.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.
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EvilDragon
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16015 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:52 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

So, in majority of cases, it won't be audio rate because great majority of plugins don't support sample accurate automation (i.e. all VST2 plugins, and despite VST3 introducing sample accurate automation, not even Steinberg's own seem to support it, ironically, AFAIK).
Cinebient
KVRAF
 
3299 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:42 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

EvilDragon wrote:So, in majority of cases, it won't be audio rate because great majority of plugins don't support sample accurate automation (i.e. all VST2 plugins, and despite VST3 introducing sample accurate automation, not even Steinberg's own seem to support it, ironically, AFAIK).


Does that mean i could use sample accurate automation as kind of audio rate modulation.
F.e. if i use very fast LFO‘s like the Cableguys stuff to modulate a filter cutoff in a synth which doesn‘t has itself fast LFO‘s or OSC as modulation source?
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16015 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:31 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Only if the plugin and host supports sample accurate automation, yeah, you can modulate up to Nyquist limit (half the sample rate) without aliasing.
v1o
KVRian
 
979 posts since 1 Oct, 2004

Postby v1o; Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:56 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

nichttuntun wrote:After delving further in the depths of The Legend I really ask why the developers didn't give this awesome sounding VST some more modulation options. It sounds really fantastic but is totally boring regarded on the long run.

I compared it with my still unbeatable hardware synth Waldorf PULSE 1 which has also 3 OSCs, cross modulation and Sync and a fully analog filter and that beast sounds simular to a MOOG and has a similar concept BUT it has several freely choosable modulation sources with which you can make totally creative unusual sounds in no time.

In my opinion the bone dry PULSE beats The Legend with ease due to the sound sculpture possibilities.

Why are such features missing in The Legend??? Yes it may be great to have the low budget possibility to sound like the cult synthesizer of the 70th. But at the same time it is so limiting that you only can sound like the original. I think it is not creative at all to mimic sounds - legendary or not - heard a million time before.

Here I have to positively point out the way GForce went with their great ODDITY2 - it's pure modulation and sound design heaven plus having the original core character of the real ARP transported to the modern time.

What do you think? Cheers.

Because it won’t sound like a Moog anymore once you do that. It’s the limitations which enable it to be an exacting emulation of a Model D. If you want more options there is Dune 2, that does a lot more. And yes they are going to add the tech in the Legend to Dune but it won’t sound the same because the parameter ranges are wider in Dune.
Last edited by v1o on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2
chk071
KVRAF
 
15141 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:04 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

v1o wrote:
nichttuntun wrote:After delving further in the depths of The Legend I really ask why the developers didn't give this awesome sounding VST some more modulation options. It sounds really fantastic but is totally boring regarded on the long run.

I compared it with my still unbeatable hardware synth Waldorf PULSE 1 which has also 3 OSCs, cross modulation and Sync and a fully analog filter and that beast sounds simular to a MOOG and has a similar concept BUT it has several freely choosable modulation sources with which you can make totally creative unusual sounds in no time.

In my opinion the bone dry PULSE beats The Legend with ease due to the sound sculpture possibilities.

Why are such features missing in The Legend??? Yes it may be great to have the low budget possibility to sound like the cult synthesizer of the 70th. But at the same time it is so limiting that you only can sound like the original. I think it is not creative at all to mimic sounds - legendary or not - heard a million time before.

Here I have to positively point out the way GForce went with their great ODDITY2 - it's pure modulation and sound design heaven plus having the original core character of the real ARP transported to the modern time.

What do you think? Cheers.

Because it won’t sound like a Moog anymore once you do that. It’s the limitations which enable it to be an exacting emulation of a Model D.

Well... obviously, they didn't feel that way when they implemented 4 voice unison, full ADSR envelopes, and velocity modulation. Not that i think that is wrong in any way, it just defeats your point about the "pure emulation".
v1o
KVRian
 
979 posts since 1 Oct, 2004

Postby v1o; Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:37 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

chk071 wrote:
v1o wrote:
nichttuntun wrote:After delving further in the depths of The Legend I really ask why the developers didn't give this awesome sounding VST some more modulation options. It sounds really fantastic but is totally boring regarded on the long run.

I compared it with my still unbeatable hardware synth Waldorf PULSE 1 which has also 3 OSCs, cross modulation and Sync and a fully analog filter and that beast sounds simular to a MOOG and has a similar concept BUT it has several freely choosable modulation sources with which you can make totally creative unusual sounds in no time.

In my opinion the bone dry PULSE beats The Legend with ease due to the sound sculpture possibilities.

Why are such features missing in The Legend??? Yes it may be great to have the low budget possibility to sound like the cult synthesizer of the 70th. But at the same time it is so limiting that you only can sound like the original. I think it is not creative at all to mimic sounds - legendary or not - heard a million time before.

Here I have to positively point out the way GForce went with their great ODDITY2 - it's pure modulation and sound design heaven plus having the original core character of the real ARP transported to the modern time.

What do you think? Cheers.

Because it won’t sound like a Moog anymore once you do that. It’s the limitations which enable it to be an exacting emulation of a Model D.

Well... obviously, they didn't feel that way when they implemented 4 voice unison, full ADSR envelopes, and velocity modulation. Not that i think that is wrong in any way, it just defeats your point about the "pure emulation".

They chose to add features that don’t change the character of the synth too much. Things like unison, reverb and delay people would tend to get from effects pedals which are commonly used on stage with the Moog. They still keep within the spirit of the original and how it was commonly used.

To satisfy those people who say it’s impossible for software to sound exactly like hardware. They had to stay within the ranges of the hardware. For everyone else there are synths like Dune and Zebra which cover much more sonic territory but don’t sound like any hardware.
Last edited by v1o on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2
v1o
KVRian
 
979 posts since 1 Oct, 2004

Postby v1o; Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:51 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2
chk071
KVRAF
 
15141 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:58 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

But where would the fun be, if it isn't real-time? I rather go with Urs Heckmann's saying that, at some point, it becomes irrelevant when you model any single poop an anlog circuit does. At least in a musical context. I won't have the illusion that, one day, you will have an emulation which matches the original in every single aspect, i don't think that's possible even. Of course, there always will be a difference.
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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
 
11081 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:51 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

v1o wrote:You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.


I don't think that's a great analogy because the eye and the ear are rather different. There is only one visible reality that needs to be approached by render techniques. Either it looks realistic or it doesn't.
With synths sounds there are a lot of different realities. You can change various parameters and it still is an authentic reality. When you change any visual parameters (colors, gamma etc.), the eye will think it doesn't look realistic anymore.

Also, I think vision is much more demanding and sophisticated than hearing. Which is also why to most people going blind is more problematic than going deaf.
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