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chk071
KVRAF
 
16056 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:04 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

v1o wrote:
nichttuntun wrote:After delving further in the depths of The Legend I really ask why the developers didn't give this awesome sounding VST some more modulation options. It sounds really fantastic but is totally boring regarded on the long run.

I compared it with my still unbeatable hardware synth Waldorf PULSE 1 which has also 3 OSCs, cross modulation and Sync and a fully analog filter and that beast sounds simular to a MOOG and has a similar concept BUT it has several freely choosable modulation sources with which you can make totally creative unusual sounds in no time.

In my opinion the bone dry PULSE beats The Legend with ease due to the sound sculpture possibilities.

Why are such features missing in The Legend??? Yes it may be great to have the low budget possibility to sound like the cult synthesizer of the 70th. But at the same time it is so limiting that you only can sound like the original. I think it is not creative at all to mimic sounds - legendary or not - heard a million time before.

Here I have to positively point out the way GForce went with their great ODDITY2 - it's pure modulation and sound design heaven plus having the original core character of the real ARP transported to the modern time.

What do you think? Cheers.

Because it won’t sound like a Moog anymore once you do that. It’s the limitations which enable it to be an exacting emulation of a Model D.

Well... obviously, they didn't feel that way when they implemented 4 voice unison, full ADSR envelopes, and velocity modulation. Not that i think that is wrong in any way, it just defeats your point about the "pure emulation".
v1o
KVRian
 
1051 posts since 1 Oct, 2004

Postby v1o; Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:37 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

chk071 wrote:
v1o wrote:
nichttuntun wrote:After delving further in the depths of The Legend I really ask why the developers didn't give this awesome sounding VST some more modulation options. It sounds really fantastic but is totally boring regarded on the long run.

I compared it with my still unbeatable hardware synth Waldorf PULSE 1 which has also 3 OSCs, cross modulation and Sync and a fully analog filter and that beast sounds simular to a MOOG and has a similar concept BUT it has several freely choosable modulation sources with which you can make totally creative unusual sounds in no time.

In my opinion the bone dry PULSE beats The Legend with ease due to the sound sculpture possibilities.

Why are such features missing in The Legend??? Yes it may be great to have the low budget possibility to sound like the cult synthesizer of the 70th. But at the same time it is so limiting that you only can sound like the original. I think it is not creative at all to mimic sounds - legendary or not - heard a million time before.

Here I have to positively point out the way GForce went with their great ODDITY2 - it's pure modulation and sound design heaven plus having the original core character of the real ARP transported to the modern time.

What do you think? Cheers.

Because it won’t sound like a Moog anymore once you do that. It’s the limitations which enable it to be an exacting emulation of a Model D.

Well... obviously, they didn't feel that way when they implemented 4 voice unison, full ADSR envelopes, and velocity modulation. Not that i think that is wrong in any way, it just defeats your point about the "pure emulation".

They chose to add features that don’t change the character of the synth too much. Things like unison, reverb and delay people would tend to get from effects pedals which are commonly used on stage with the Moog. They still keep within the spirit of the original and how it was commonly used.

To satisfy those people who say it’s impossible for software to sound exactly like hardware. They had to stay within the ranges of the hardware. For everyone else there are synths like Dune and Zebra which cover much more sonic territory but don’t sound like any hardware.
Last edited by v1o on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2
v1o
KVRian
 
1051 posts since 1 Oct, 2004

Postby v1o; Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:51 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2
chk071
KVRAF
 
16056 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:58 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

But where would the fun be, if it isn't real-time? I rather go with Urs Heckmann's saying that, at some point, it becomes irrelevant when you model any single poop an anlog circuit does. At least in a musical context. I won't have the illusion that, one day, you will have an emulation which matches the original in every single aspect, i don't think that's possible even. Of course, there always will be a difference.
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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
 
11486 posts since 5 Jun, 2012, from Portugal

Postby fluffy_little_something; Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:51 pm Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

v1o wrote:You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.


I don't think that's a great analogy because the eye and the ear are rather different. There is only one visible reality that needs to be approached by render techniques. Either it looks realistic or it doesn't.
With synths sounds there are a lot of different realities. You can change various parameters and it still is an authentic reality. When you change any visual parameters (colors, gamma etc.), the eye will think it doesn't look realistic anymore.

Also, I think vision is much more demanding and sophisticated than hearing. Which is also why to most people going blind is more problematic than going deaf.
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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
 
824 posts since 19 Dec, 2010

Postby Richard_Synapse; Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:32 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

v1o wrote:You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.


While I have the highest respect for Andrew, I cannot fully agree with him here.

We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet). Our problem has rarely been CPU usage, but the sheer amount of details that need to be modeled. Those details are not always computationally expensive, just very time consuming to implement. As an example, getting the transients right is very important in a vintage synth emulation. This requires a lot of work to make sure it works properly in all possible parameter settings (especially the "snappy" ones), but does not really require much CPU at the end of the day.

Of course there is stuff like the filter core or the VCA that can eat quite some CPU, but a lot of stuff that sounds good / is important in a vintage synth boils down to something trivial in terms of the algorithms required. The analogy with the photo-realism is ihmo better if you consider the time we spend on an emulation, rather than the computer. Analog synth modeling could be compared to creating a photo-realistic image by setting every pixel, a nightmare but entirely possible. If a synth emulation is not 100% there yet, some pixels are simply lacking ;)

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
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Niowiad
KVRist
 
161 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Postby Niowiad; Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:24 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet)

Didn't know that...

Image
EnGee
KVRAF
 
4691 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Postby EnGee; Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:42 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet).

:party: :party: :party:
My lovely setup: Windows 10, Reason 10, Cubase 9.5, AudioBox iTwo, Casio PX-5S, Korg microKey & nanoKontrol and a bunch of great soft synths and instruments :)
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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
12398 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:34 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:
v1o wrote:You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.


While I have the highest respect for Andrew, I cannot fully agree with him here.

We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet). Our problem has rarely been CPU usage, but the sheer amount of details that need to be modeled. Those details are not always computationally expensive, just very time consuming to implement. As an example, getting the transients right is very important in a vintage synth emulation. This requires a lot of work to make sure it works properly in all possible parameter settings (especially the "snappy" ones), but does not really require much CPU at the end of the day.

Of course there is stuff like the filter core or the VCA that can eat quite some CPU, but a lot of stuff that sounds good / is important in a vintage synth boils down to something trivial in terms of the algorithms required. The analogy with the photo-realism is ihmo better if you consider the time we spend on an emulation, rather than the computer. Analog synth modeling could be compared to creating a photo-realistic image by setting every pixel, a nightmare but entirely possible. If a synth emulation is not 100% there yet, some pixels are simply lacking ;)

Richard


Richard, FWIW, I listen to The Legend and I listen to a minimoog and I can't tell the difference. Of course I have the intelligence of a can of sardines so take that for what it's worth to you.

If pixels are missing, I can't tell.
Dullee
KVRist
 
74 posts since 9 Mar, 2018

Postby Dullee; Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:45 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet)


Hmm, wonder what would that be. If we're talking 70's-early 80's type of vintage, there's hardly one left that wasn't done to death. So if you're coming up with a product in, say, 2018, a vintage synth, it has to be interesting, relevant, useful... or hold that "nostalgic value", at least :hihi:

I'd say, wouldn't be Memorymoog, since The Legend already has polyphony and ironically is a better polyphonic Minimoog than Memorymoog was.

I wouldn't say no to Moog Taurus, but I can already tell it's definitely not that. Hardly anyone needs Taurus in 2018, except for my overly nostalgic ass.

Wouldn't be anything ARP or Roland, I figure. Except for 2600 maybe...... but no.

It could be Pro One/Prophet-5 before one fairly maniacal (other) German individual thought otherwise.

I wouldn't say no to OB-X myself, with a different layout than OP-X Pro II, but still, I don't think it's that. Though I wish it would. I would buy an alternative high quality OB-X emulation without hesitation.

Another couple of vintage synths I'd definitely get would be Yamaha CS-80 and Elka Synthex. Probably EMS VCS/AKS sort of thing too. Though Elka is highly unlikely to happen. If there was a sufficient demand for it, the crowdfunding campaign for the hardware Synthex comeback would be successful. And it wasn't.

So what are your thoughts, gentlemen? What could possibly the next "vintage synth" emulation from Synapse Audio be?
Last edited by Dullee on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
recursive one
KVRAF
 
3417 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:21 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations
Well, good to know. I guess whatever it will be it will sell really well, but I'd still prefer seeing something less focued on being "vintage" and "an emulation" but rather more innovative, perhaps a continuation to Dune series with better sound (like more coloured/characterful/analogue-like).
I hate incomplete sentences because they ...
EnGee
KVRAF
 
4691 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Postby EnGee; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:34 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Maybe we need to look into BT hardware synths or what he bought lately if we want to guess :hihi:
My lovely setup: Windows 10, Reason 10, Cubase 9.5, AudioBox iTwo, Casio PX-5S, Korg microKey & nanoKontrol and a bunch of great soft synths and instruments :)
recursive one
KVRAF
 
3417 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:36 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

EnGee wrote:Maybe we need to look into BT hardware synths or what he bought lately if we want to guess :hihi:

Brian Transeau?

What is the connection?
I hate incomplete sentences because they ...
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Yorrrrrr
KVRian
 
666 posts since 25 Sep, 2011, from Cartagena - Colombia

Postby Yorrrrrr; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:37 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

recursive one wrote:
Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations
Well, good to know. I guess whatever it will be it will sell really well, but I'd still prefer seeing something less focued on being "vintage" and "an emulation" but rather more innovative, perhaps a continuation to Dune series with better sound (like more coloured/characterful/analogue-like).


DUNE 3 is also coming, very soon.
AnX
KVRAF
 
2776 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Postby AnX; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:44 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

recursive one wrote:
Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations
Well, good to know. I guess whatever it will be it will sell really well, but I'd still prefer seeing something less focued on being "vintage" and "an emulation" but rather more innovative, perhaps a continuation to Dune series with better sound (like more coloured/characterful/analogue-like).


D3 is coming this year
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