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Richard_Synapse
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811 posts since 19 Dec, 2010

Postby Richard_Synapse; Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:32 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

v1o wrote:You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.


While I have the highest respect for Andrew, I cannot fully agree with him here.

We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet). Our problem has rarely been CPU usage, but the sheer amount of details that need to be modeled. Those details are not always computationally expensive, just very time consuming to implement. As an example, getting the transients right is very important in a vintage synth emulation. This requires a lot of work to make sure it works properly in all possible parameter settings (especially the "snappy" ones), but does not really require much CPU at the end of the day.

Of course there is stuff like the filter core or the VCA that can eat quite some CPU, but a lot of stuff that sounds good / is important in a vintage synth boils down to something trivial in terms of the algorithms required. The analogy with the photo-realism is ihmo better if you consider the time we spend on an emulation, rather than the computer. Analog synth modeling could be compared to creating a photo-realistic image by setting every pixel, a nightmare but entirely possible. If a synth emulation is not 100% there yet, some pixels are simply lacking ;)

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com
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Niowiad
KVRist
 
107 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Postby Niowiad; Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:24 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet)

Didn't know that...

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EnGee
KVRAF
 
4407 posts since 7 Oct, 2005, from NZ

Postby EnGee; Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:42 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet).

:party: :party: :party:

Win 10 Ryzen 5 1600x PC with Reason 10, Cubase 9 Pro, FL Studio 12 & Reaper 5, nektar P4, Casio PX-5S, AudioBox iTwo and Yamaha HS7
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wagtunes
KVRAF
 
11019 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:34 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:
v1o wrote:You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.


While I have the highest respect for Andrew, I cannot fully agree with him here.

We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet). Our problem has rarely been CPU usage, but the sheer amount of details that need to be modeled. Those details are not always computationally expensive, just very time consuming to implement. As an example, getting the transients right is very important in a vintage synth emulation. This requires a lot of work to make sure it works properly in all possible parameter settings (especially the "snappy" ones), but does not really require much CPU at the end of the day.

Of course there is stuff like the filter core or the VCA that can eat quite some CPU, but a lot of stuff that sounds good / is important in a vintage synth boils down to something trivial in terms of the algorithms required. The analogy with the photo-realism is ihmo better if you consider the time we spend on an emulation, rather than the computer. Analog synth modeling could be compared to creating a photo-realistic image by setting every pixel, a nightmare but entirely possible. If a synth emulation is not 100% there yet, some pixels are simply lacking ;)

Richard


Richard, FWIW, I listen to The Legend and I listen to a minimoog and I can't tell the difference. Of course I have the intelligence of a can of sardines so take that for what it's worth to you.

If pixels are missing, I can't tell.
Dullee
KVRist
 
49 posts since 9 Mar, 2018

Postby Dullee; Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:45 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations (with only The Legend released yet)


Hmm, wonder what would that be. If we're talking 70's-early 80's type of vintage, there's hardly one left that wasn't done to death. So if you're coming up with a product in, say, 2018, a vintage synth, it has to be interesting, relevant, useful... or hold that "nostalgic value", at least :hihi:

I'd say, wouldn't be Memorymoog, since The Legend already has polyphony and ironically is a better polyphonic Minimoog than Memorymoog was.

I wouldn't say no to Moog Taurus, but I can already tell it's definitely not that. Hardly anyone needs Taurus in 2018, except for my overly nostalgic ass.

Wouldn't be anything ARP or Roland, I figure. Except for 2600 maybe...... but no.

It could be Pro One/Prophet-5 before one fairly maniacal (other) German individual thought otherwise.

I wouldn't say no to OB-X myself, with a different layout than OP-X Pro II, but still, I don't think it's that. Though I wish it would. I would buy an alternative high quality OB-X emulation without hesitation.

Another couple of vintage synths I'd definitely get would be Yamaha CS-80 and Elka Synthex. Probably EMS VCS/AKS sort of thing too. Though Elka is highly unlikely to happen. If there was a sufficient demand for it, the crowdfunding campaign for the hardware Synthex comeback would be successful. And it wasn't.

So what are your thoughts, gentlemen? What could possibly the next "vintage synth" emulation from Synapse Audio be?
Last edited by Dullee on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
recursive one
KVRAF
 
3310 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:21 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations
Well, good to know. I guess whatever it will be it will sell really well, but I'd still prefer seeing something less focued on being "vintage" and "an emulation" but rather more innovative, perhaps a continuation to Dune series with better sound (like more coloured/characterful/analogue-like).
I hate incomplete sentences because they ...
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EnGee
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4407 posts since 7 Oct, 2005, from NZ

Postby EnGee; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:34 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Maybe we need to look into BT hardware synths or what he bought lately if we want to guess :hihi:

Win 10 Ryzen 5 1600x PC with Reason 10, Cubase 9 Pro, FL Studio 12 & Reaper 5, nektar P4, Casio PX-5S, AudioBox iTwo and Yamaha HS7
recursive one
KVRAF
 
3310 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:36 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

EnGee wrote:Maybe we need to look into BT hardware synths or what he bought lately if we want to guess :hihi:

Brian Transeau?

What is the connection?
I hate incomplete sentences because they ...
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Yorrrrrr
KVRian
 
644 posts since 25 Sep, 2011, from Cartagena - Colombia

Postby Yorrrrrr; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:37 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

recursive one wrote:
Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations
Well, good to know. I guess whatever it will be it will sell really well, but I'd still prefer seeing something less focued on being "vintage" and "an emulation" but rather more innovative, perhaps a continuation to Dune series with better sound (like more coloured/characterful/analogue-like).


DUNE 3 is also coming, very soon.
AnX
KVRAF
 
2553 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Postby AnX; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:44 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

recursive one wrote:
Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations
Well, good to know. I guess whatever it will be it will sell really well, but I'd still prefer seeing something less focued on being "vintage" and "an emulation" but rather more innovative, perhaps a continuation to Dune series with better sound (like more coloured/characterful/analogue-like).


D3 is coming this year
recursive one
KVRAF
 
3310 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:51 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

AnX wrote:
recursive one wrote:
Richard_Synapse wrote:We have now been working on a couple of vintage synth emulations
Well, good to know. I guess whatever it will be it will sell really well, but I'd still prefer seeing something less focued on being "vintage" and "an emulation" but rather more innovative, perhaps a continuation to Dune series with better sound (like more coloured/characterful/analogue-like).


D3 is coming this year

Now that's good news. :tu:
I hate incomplete sentences because they ...
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Yorrrrrr
KVRian
 
644 posts since 25 Sep, 2011, from Cartagena - Colombia

Postby Yorrrrrr; Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:57 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

recursive one wrote:
EnGee wrote:Maybe we need to look into BT hardware synths or what he bought lately if we want to guess :hihi:

Brian Transeau?

What is the connection?


It's BigTone (Nico Herz).
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nichttuntun
KVRist
 
184 posts since 21 Nov, 2017

Postby nichttuntun; Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:19 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

fluffy_little_something wrote:
v1o wrote:You know despite the advancements made by groundbreaking synths like the Legend (and also Monark, Repro-5 etc) there are still people not convinced that plugins can sound like real discrete analogue hardware.

I was recently reading posts by Andrew Simper on GS. He was saying there still isn’t enough computational power to do the job, too many corners are cut by current methods commonly used in plugins. He was talking about having VST plugins that work more like 3D raytrace renderers which strive for greater realism by taking hours (even days) to do the calculations to generate images. So he was talking about having your plugins that work overnight to render your audio in the highest possible quality.


I don't think that's a great analogy because the eye and the ear are rather different. There is only one visible reality that needs to be approached by render techniques. Either it looks realistic or it doesn't.
With synths sounds there are a lot of different realities. You can change various parameters and it still is an authentic reality. When you change any visual parameters (colors, gamma etc.), the eye will think it doesn't look realistic anymore.

Also, I think vision is much more demanding and sophisticated than hearing. Which is also why to most people going blind is more problematic than going deaf.


Hi. interesting positions. Maybe I share my experience as a person who is practicing meditation for several years.

I experienced that the only thing the eye is able to see is form and colour. The only thing the ear is able to hear is sonic waves. Everything else is made up by the mind based on trained concepts. To make it simple. It's all an illusion. :D Due to this fact nearly no-one is able to see and hear thins as they really are. We see and hear concepts and we decide whether we like or dislike them on the base of preferences.
Cinebient
KVRAF
 
3299 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:54 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

"Couple of vintage synth emulations"....plus Dune 3 soon maybe.
Seems i have to save some money.
What about a Synapse Audio complete bundle....i would be on board :D
(if Synapse Audio synths just would have microtuning it would be awesome).
Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
 
5267 posts since 15 Aug, 2006

Postby Funkybot's Evil Twin; Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:01 am Re: Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!

Dullee wrote:
I'd say, wouldn't be Memorymoog, since The Legend already has polyphony and ironically is a better polyphonic Minimoog than Memorymoog was.


I wouldn't be too sure about that. Richard recently purchased a Memorymoog and as pointed out to me on Gearslutz when I made a similar post questioning how close a Memorymoog and a Mini are, the Memorymoog has CEM chips and a few more differences. I'm pretty convinced the Memory is at least one of the vintage emulations.

Also, if my memory isn't completely failing, I believe Richard also recently acquired another vintage poly synth which was mentioned in the same thread. I'm thinking Oberheim because I remember someone relating the purchase to the Behringer OB-X clone in the works. If you're Richard, and gonna drop that kind of coin on vintage polys, I'd think emulation was on the agenda.
Last edited by Funkybot's Evil Twin on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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