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SampleScience
KVRAF
 
3643 posts since 31 Oct, 2004, from Mtl, Canada

Postby SampleScience; Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:12 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

There is already a couple of developers testing Hise at the moment. Mostly indie developers like me, but also one big developer. There's even one developer who's already dropping Kontakt in favor of Hise. On Facebook, Hise as been discussed among developers and the general outlook is positive. Will it be a viable Kontakt alternative? Only time will tell, but there is certainly advantages against Maize Sampler; the scripting capabilities, a good selection of high quality effects, the possibility to modify the code which is a big plus for any developers.

As I said, I'm going to test it out in more details. I hope the latest build will be better than the previous. A developer pointed me towards some good tutorials to make a sample based instrument in Hise. I'll give it a shot and follow the development closely.
Last edited by SampleScience on Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
padillac
KVRist
 
461 posts since 27 Nov, 2011

Postby padillac; Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:27 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

So with the current HISE release, can you create a custom plugin for free? Or do you basically build patches for HISE itself?

The idea of using it to make custom plugins is cool... but with all the bickering about licenses, I'm having a tough time figuring out the technical aspects of how it works.
Chrisboy2000
KVRist
 
30 posts since 21 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby Chrisboy2000; Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:43 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

I am doing everything in my power to make it a viable alternative to KONTAKT and this will most certainly involve rethinking the licencing and step up my PR game ;)

So thanks for everybody who contributed to this thread. I have some thinking to do and will discuss it with the few developers I know to come up with something that is attractive for everybody.

Christoph
Paree
KVRist
 
181 posts since 20 Jun, 2015, from India

Postby Paree; Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:03 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

Chrisboy2000 wrote:I am doing everything in my power to make it a viable alternative to KONTAKT and this will most certainly involve rethinking the licencing and step up my PR game ;)

So thanks for everybody who contributed to this thread. I have some thinking to do and will discuss it with the few developers I know to come up with something that is attractive for everybody.

Christoph

Nice to hear. And HISE really requires some tutorials.

And a question releated to making open source vsts using HISE. Does open source meaning distribution of HISE project+samples used?
Chrisboy2000
KVRist
 
30 posts since 21 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby Chrisboy2000; Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:09 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

GPL means everything you need to compile and use the plugin must be made availabe to the public, which includes samples and all HISE files.

And tutorials are the next thing on my TODO list
kbaccki
KVRAF
 
2290 posts since 12 Sep, 2004

Postby kbaccki; Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:00 pm Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

Architeuthis wrote:I don't know what kind of money Chris needs to earn so that HISE can be developed to be a good Kontakt competitor


There's a forum for that... it's called Kickstarter...
You need to limit that rez, bro.
bungle
KVRian
 
1352 posts since 12 Mar, 2004

Postby bungle; Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:06 pm Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

Chrisboy2000 wrote:GPL means everything you need to compile and use the plugin must be made availabe to the public, which includes samples and all HISE files.

And tutorials are the next thing on my TODO list


If the plugin is loading external samples, why do you need them to compile ?
If your plugin is a C++ creation, please don't say so.
If it is, pop round Marcos, he has just bought you a Mac to port it.
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Numanoid
KVRAF
 
24234 posts since 20 Jan, 2008

Postby Numanoid; Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:15 pm Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

Chrisboy2000 wrote:I am doing everything in my power to make it a viable alternative to KONTAKT and this will most certainly involve rethinking the licencing and step up my PR game ;)

For regular "every day" sample playing/manipulation Kontakt can be far too complex.

I would rather welcome HISE as a viable alternative to MaizeSampler.
Chrisboy2000
KVRist
 
30 posts since 21 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby Chrisboy2000; Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:53 pm Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

If the plugin is loading external samples, why do you need them to compile ?


There are two reasons, one technical and one legal:

The samples have to be external because you can't embed gigabytes of audio data into a binary file. Also streaming would not be possible because you load everything in the memory as soon as you start the app / plugin. But you get some benefits by compiling the plugin, like deactivated scripting safe checks, licence key validation via RSA etc.

The legal reason is that by definition of the GPL everything that is needed to execute (and not only compile) your modified binary must be published along with the source code, and the plugin alone without samples would not have the same functionality - in fact, no functionality :)

Source:

If you only use source code provided in that release, and you can use this source code to produce a working form of the executable code, then the source code release seems complete.

If the build process fails, or you end up with a non-working executable, or you have no way to install the resulting executable, then clearly something is missing.


(Taken from: http://gpl-violations.org/faq/sourcecode-faq/)
kbaccki
KVRAF
 
2290 posts since 12 Sep, 2004

Postby kbaccki; Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:08 pm Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

Conversation seems to be stuck on GPL requirements. And GPL requirements come from JUCE. If the need is simply for x-platform GUI/system framework, then there are non-GPL options for that. For example, wxWidgets, which uses a very limited variant of GPL called L-GPL. There may be other options that use MIT license, etc. If GPL is causing such consternation, even for unbundled content dist, then just remove it from the equation... make your life easier. GPL sucks for devs because it's all or nothing... an indie dev selling a $20 sample set is not going to just release the rights to their proprietary content to the world at large under very liberal GPL/copyleft terms. The required usage license may be simplistic, but typicaly it will at least contain one sentence stating "I own this content and grant you a license to use it", and another stating "you may not produce a derived product". Kitchen sink copyleft licensing cuts too far into those simple requirements for restricting/protecting rights on proprietary content. Who knows, I'm no lawyer and I don't play one on tv... but as a software dev I've always viewed GPL in particular as a big P.I.T.A., unless your only objective is to produce a bunch of free stuff.

Then adding the commercial licensing cost if JUCE on top, and it just seems to me to not be a practical route if the plan is to get a foothold in the market in any way shape or form. Your priority should be thinking about how to saturate the market with HISE content and build a competitive user base, NOT what are the ways I can make money on this thing. Build the user base and demand for content, the money follows. Somebody saying "well, a kontakt player license is $10K, and JUCE is only $1K" is not exactly an incentive to take a risk on your specific platform.

Here's the world we live in: any person with a mac and some programming chops can pay apple $100, write a fantatstic mobile app or game, and make $1M. Or $1B. Or $1. Similarly for android. The tech barriers for entry are LOWERING year after year, across the board... digital content creation and distribution, desktop app dev, mobile dev, web dev, game dev, etc. Hell, in line with industry push for security, web ISPs are giving out free SSL certs so every joeblow.com can have a verifiable presence. When I was your age an SSL cert was a pricey thing, as were the dedicated T3 lines, and the MSDN subscriptions. This is the world we live in: free SSL certs for everybody.

I would look at non-GPL options to replace JUCE. Wx or similar for x-platform GUI. Real attention needs to be payed to the disk streaming... a general purpose framework probably doesn't meet the performance and capacity requirements, so a small bit of platform specific code may be required there anyway. If you want to compete w kontakt, efficiently streaming hundreds of voices simultaneously is one of your use cases. Maybe look to sublicense a working streaming engine/framework from an established dev (e.g., plogue?) and factor that into a low cost ($20) content provider version. Player+basic editing is free for everybody. Advanced editing for providers is $20. Packaged custom libraries are whatever.
You need to limit that rez, bro.
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Architeuthis
KVRAF
 
2749 posts since 27 Jan, 2006, from Phoenix, AZ

Postby Architeuthis; Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:01 pm Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

kbaccki wrote:If you want to compete w kontakt, efficiently streaming hundreds of voices simultaneously is one of your use cases. Maybe look to sublicense a working streaming engine/framework from an established dev (e.g., plogue?) and factor that into a low cost ($20) content provider version. Player+basic editing is free for everybody. Advanced editing for providers is $20. Packaged custom libraries are whatever.
Interesting idea... Well, HISE already can compete with kontakt in terms of disk streaming / RAM usage / number of voices at once... but you bring up an interesting point... At the end of the day, disk streaming stuff is the number one reason why sample library companies don't just make their own sampler, and maybe a few other factors.

What if you could strip out the most important bits from HISE and offer a GUI-less solution? Could you remove JUCE from the equation? Let the indie developer make their own GUI stuff.

At the end of the day, programming a set of sample playback instructions (provided the right C++ framework) is probably easier than using the HISE Instrument Builder GUI + javascript for complex stuff. Round robins are easily handled with your own data structure... you see where I'm going with this?

...I dunno, just throwing out ideas....

Edit: Personally, I think the x/y grid of velocity/midi note doesn't make sense for modern sample libraries. Do away with it, I say! Sample playback should be pure instructions, not based on any pre-conceived structures.
Chrisboy2000
KVRist
 
30 posts since 21 Apr, 2008, from Germany

Postby Chrisboy2000; Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:47 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

Your priority should be thinking about how to saturate the market with HISE content and build a competitive user base, NOT what are the ways I can make money on this thing. Build the user base and demand for content, the money follows.


Amen to that. I am really sorry if I struck you as some kind of scroogy-capitalist guy but this is really not the case. I might have done more market research instead of writing code - the latter is just more fun :)

Could you remove JUCE from the equation?


There are many more dependencies than just the GUI stuff so removing JUCE is not an option. However with a free HISE Player the GPLness of JUCE shouldn't play a role anymore (the GPL will only become relevant when you want your own plugin).

I think it will come down something Paree suggested: to offer the HISE Player for free, charge licences from commercial developers who want to publish libraries there (with the licence fee depending on the retail price so small / low budget libraries stay attractive and also offer an upgrade path to a unlimited licence).

If developers want their own plugin, they have to get a JUCE licence.

Personally, I think the x/y grid of velocity/midi note doesn't make sense for modern sample libraries


Finally, back to some technical issues! Actually you don't have a two-dimensional grid in HISE, you get 4 dimensions:

- note number
- velocity
- group index (per sampler can be used for stuff like RR or true legato)
- multimic index

Also you get the channel information, which I raised to 256 instead of 16 for the internal event system (this was another request from you).

I think you get 99% of all use cases covered with this scheme. For the rest I could also add scripting functions to directly play a certain sample which gives you the total freedom of organizing them into a multidimensional array (IIRC you wanted this solution for varying amounts of round robin samples). However you'll have to be careful about performance then (as we all know, Javascript is not quite as fast as C++, but if you organize the samples right, it should be OK).
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Architeuthis
KVRAF
 
2749 posts since 27 Jan, 2006, from Phoenix, AZ

Postby Architeuthis; Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:19 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

Alright, sounds good. From a newcomer perspective I feel that HISE can seem a bit all over the place, it feels a bit like that for me at the moment. In time, with videos and demos of HISE and clear explanations of licensing and opportunities for small developers (if there are some), it will be a lot more inviting of new users. We will have to keep an eye on HISE.
bungle
KVRian
 
1352 posts since 12 Mar, 2004

Postby bungle; Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:13 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

Chrisboy2000 wrote:I think it will come down something Paree suggested: to offer the HISE Player for free, charge licences from commercial developers who want to publish libraries there (with the licence fee depending on the retail price so small / low budget libraries stay attractive and also offer an upgrade path to a unlimited licence).

If developers want their own plugin, they have to get a JUCE licence.



Yes but this tells us nothing at all
1 Charge licences to library creators for the free player with licence fee based on retail price
2 If you want your own plugin you need to buy JUCE
So if i want to make my own plugin i just need to buy JUCE, i no longer need to buy a licence for HISE ?
You are very confusing with all of this, all it does is make everything blurred and there is zero real information.
If you want this to go away and start building a community of interest around HISE, you need to state concrete facts (Including exact pricing) nobody has any interest in investing time and effort in to a project when they have no idea what and if they will ever be able to release it.
If your plugin is a C++ creation, please don't say so.
If it is, pop round Marcos, he has just bought you a Mac to port it.
bungle
KVRian
 
1352 posts since 12 Mar, 2004

Postby bungle; Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:16 am Re: HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

And as for the GPL and compiling, i guess that this prevents add on sample packs too then ?
Because how can i create an open source package for anybody to compile if i do not have the add on sample packs even created yet.
If i can create an open source compilable pack with just the built in samples, and do that for free, then charge for add on sample packs but not need to include those in the source ??
Again this is all very confusing and just blurs any interest.
If your plugin is a C++ creation, please don't say so.
If it is, pop round Marcos, he has just bought you a Mac to port it.
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