BW-Tron Beta Tests

[BlackWinny]

Hello !

• The positions of the tone/pan knobs could be changed, as the "symmetry" plan has become obsolote because of the added effect section.

Yes. It was originally thought as a symmetry, thing which is now truly obsolete, and in the last beta updates I forgot to put them back to the same place in the Set A and the Set B. Today I'm fixing this relic of the past.

• The patch mem for the background colors should be set to "ignore program change" so it's not saved in the presets.

Yes. My question then is "How could I find a way to prevent the user to change the skin to his own preference each time he loads the plugin?" I'm a bit worried about this question. A solution to make the user skin permanent would be very nice.

• There are no presets appearing when opening the plugin. Did you save it as VST with the option "Programs: 1" (which should be "Programs: 128)?

Yes. I did like this for the beta version, since there are no real internal presets for the moment. I didn't think that it could lead to that kind of issue. But of course I can set it immediately to 128. No problem.

• After adding/removing knobs including patchmems in a project, sometimes Synthedit gets buggy. You may have to copy the first preset to the other 128 in the "patch automator" (or remove the "patch automator", save and reopen the project in SE and add it again).

So, the solution would be to set the number of internal presets to 128 and make a dummy ("Init") preset and copy it to the 127 other slots?
Ok, no problem. I'm going to make that.

The last two points may be responsible for the described problems with presets / knob changes and crashes with the background color selection.

I'm open to any suggestion.


Now, to Steve (and a friend who wrote me in private with the same reaction):
I don't know another way to say "C'est dommage que..." than "It is a shame that..." or "It is a pity that...". Both are although a so common expressions...
So I don't know how to tell Steve that thing, to tell that I regretted his leaving.
It is not my fault if in English two totally different things ("C'est dommage" and "C'est honteux") use a same word ! In the French vocabulary these two things are clearly distinct, in words as well as in tought. In English, would I use the expression "It is a shame that" of "It is a pity that"... it could always be understood with the same confusion by someone or whoever else! And Steve took it with the wrong sense, precisely the one I didn't express.
So... what can I do? Present apologies? I have NEVER intended to offense anybody! It has even never crossed my mind! So what? It is not my fault if the English language use same words for totally different things.

[planetearth]

Hello !

Now, to Steve (and a friend who wrote me in private with the same reaction):
I don't know another way to say "C'est dommage que..." than "It is a shame that..." or "It is a pity that...". Both are although a so common expressions...
So I don't know how to tell Steve that thing, to tell that I regretted his leaving.
It is not my fault if in English two totally different things ("C'est dommage" and "C'est honteux") use a same word ! In the French vocabulary these two things are clearly distinct, in words as well as in tought. In English, would I use the expression "It is a shame that" of "It is a pity that"... it could always be understood with the same confusion by someone or whoever else! And Steve took it with the wrong sense, precisely the one I didn't express.
So... what can I do? Present apologies? I have NEVER intended to offense anybody! It has even never crossed my mind! So what? It is not my fault if the English language use same words for totally different things.

BlackWinny, don't worry about the miscommunication. I'm not upset, and I actually read and write enough French to know that it was just a misunderstanding, based upon how it was used. We're fine, and I really do hope you get everything sorted out in the synth. I appreciate your attempts to resolve these issues much more than WOK's "this is how we want it to work, and you're getting a free synth out of the deal, so don't worry!" (Those aren't his words, but that appears to be his attitude. But since I'm not getting a "free" anything, it doesn't apply to me.)

Honestly, I'm sorry--and frankly, very surprised--that not one of your other beta-testers has come back here in the past week to either try to reproduce these issues, or offer their comments on whether the things that work the opposite of the way they do on other synths would be an issue for them. Unless, as WOK virtually implies, you two are making this synth for just yourselves, it might be good to let your "testers"--or the general public--decide what works best for them.

Bonne chance, et bonne soirée, mon ami!

Steve

[evilantal]

Okay, I'll bite and chime in since you asked @planetearth.

Your first post here was fine and actually quite helpful. WOK's reply to that was short, but certainly not as dismissive as you seem to think. Simply stating his own experiences with your reported issues.

Now your next post was just condescending and insulting to the OP. Calling things a "mistake at best", "backwards", "opposite how it's supposed to work". Then you continued insulting all the other posters in this thread by referring to them as "so-called beta-testers". It all went down hill from there.

You don't seem to get that this is a project to make a free plugin using free samples as a hobby project. The samples themselves have been around for a LONG while and have much respect in the community. I for one loved them and used them long before this project. I actually like them better than the standard set in MTron Pro that I owned (not the Streetly Tapes, though). So, I see this as a great shell for those samples with some added functionality.

You seem to have approached this with an expectation and, frankly, air of entitlement like this was NI's latest plugin. It may have all been meant well, but it didn't come across that way to me.

Having said that, I haven't had much time to play with it myself. Have an album to write and record at the moment...
I wouldn't mind the occasional flickering (even though I don't experience it..in Reaper as well).
The symmetry thing and loading of presets is a thing to look at of course.

I'll post more soon, when I finally get some spare free time.

[planetearth]

Okay, I'll bite and chime in since you asked @planetearth.

Your first post here was fine and actually quite helpful. WOK's reply to that was short, but certainly not as dismissive as you seem to think. Simply stating his own experiences with your reported issues.

Now your next post was just condescending and insulting to the OP. Calling things a "mistake at best", "backwards", "opposite how it's supposed to work". Then you continued insulting all the other posters in this thread by referring to them as "so-called beta-testers". It all went down hill from there.

You don't seem to get that this is a project to make a free plugin using free samples as a hobby project. The samples themselves have been around for a LONG while and have much respect in the community. I for one loved them and used them long before this project. I actually like them better than the standard set in MTron Pro that I owned (not the Streetly Tapes, though). So, I see this as a great shell for those samples with some added functionality.

You seem to have approached this with an expectation and, frankly, air of entitlement like this was NI's latest plugin. It may have all been meant well, but it didn't come across that way to me.

Having said that, I haven't had much time to play with it myself. Have an album to write and record at the moment...
I wouldn't mind the occasional flickering (even though I don't experience it..in Reaper as well).
The symmetry thing and loading of presets is a thing to look at of course.

I'll post more soon, when I finally get some spare free time.

WOK wasn't "simply stating his own experiences with my reported issues". He dismissed half of them, and said that (in effect) he wasn't concerned that some features were the opposite of what all the other synths do.

I didn't attack any of the beta-testers. I was simply pointing out that I found it odd that no one had mentioned any of these issues in the almost two months this thing has been out and in their hands. I found these issues in less than 10 minutes, just trying out two patches. Why is it no one has mentioned that the knobs don't update their settings or that some of the samples have audible hum in them? And where have these testers been since I posted? It's been 6 days, and no one else has commented on this (other than you). If enough people chimed in, BlackWinny could determine if this was a SONAR issue or a bigger issue. But they've left him in the dark.

I don't know how "much respect" these samples have in the community, but if you can't play a chord because the notes stop at different times, that's a problem. Audible hum that accumulates with each note played is a problem. Notes that sound like they're re-triggering when they reach the end is a problem. Frankly, I don't "respect" those issues much at all.

And it doesn't matter if this is a "free" synth. It's not "free" for BlackWinny--he's putting a lot of time and effort into learning how to code and how to work with all the different aspects of this. I'm sure he'd like something he can stand behind and be proud of when he's finished, instead of having to constantly make the excuse "Well, it was free--what do you expect?". Is everyone else so afraid to tell him there are some problems?

I don't expect this to be "NI's latest offering". I appreciate it for what it was, and that is why I tried to tell BlackWinny where I found problems. It was only when WOK dismissed them that I got upset and realized I'd wasted my time. Everything I reported is an actual issue. These are NOT my opinions. And I know a free synth won't be "perfect", but if it's very difficult to use because the knobs don't update when you load a new patch, or you have hum in the samples, then it doesn't matter how much it cost--it's no value.

Like you, I have other projects to work on, including beta-testing other synths (for developers who are eager to hear about --and fix--problems), as well as music projects. I didn't have time for this either, but I did it as a favor to someone. I still respect BlackWinny (as I have for 3 years now), and I appreciate his efforts to address some of these things.

When you've used it a bit, maybe you'll find some of these issues to be problematic, too. If you do, I'm sure BlackWinny would like to know.

Steve

[evilantal]

I don't know how "much respect" these samples have in the community, but if you can't play a chord because the notes stop at different times, that's a problem. Audible hum that accumulates with each note played is a problem. Notes that sound like they're re-triggering when they reach the end is a problem. Frankly, I don't "respect" those issues much at all.

FWIW these are classic characteristics of a Mellotron in use vs. a pristine 'Tron.
Its notoriously hard to keep the tapes in exact sync (a 'Tron doesn't use tape loops) and they have been known to have tapes of not exactly the same length and not staying exactly in sync all the time.
The retriggering at the end of the samples is the sound of the tape coming to it's end.

These two problems required 'Tron players to use a special technique for playing sustained chords called "spider crawling", whereby one needs to retrigger each finger constantly to avoid the problems above. Keeping all fingers but one pressed on the keys and alternating depressing the other fingers. A 'Tron tape is about 8 seconds long.

In fact...to REALLY model a Mellotron accurately one would have to do the exact opposite of fixing the sync issue. In a real Tron, after pressing a key, the tape needs to rewind to it's start position. Which takes a tiny amount of time. But...if you then press the same key again very quickly, the tape wouldn't have rewinded all the way back to the start yet. So you'd start the sound again somewhere along the sample. Which, would in turn lead to the sound really not being exactly as long as the other sounds anymore and changing the attack characteristic.
Come to the think of it, that could be a feature request for me. Changing the sample start position per key based on a timer since releasing that same key.

I, for one, love these authentic characteristics and would never play a looped 'Tron instrument.

The hum is something else entirely of course and could be cleaned up. But I didn't expect BW to do this, 'cause he isn't a sample editor and just takes the samples as they are. Someone with more experience in sample editing than the rest of us could maybe look into that. Or it could be worked around perhaps by putting those samples through a highpass filter (?).

[sfd]

You might be surprised about the tremendous work blackwinny is laying down on...well. I'll stop there and let him tel the rest !

[planetearth]

Yep. I agree with you on almost all of this, and I wouldn't want a looped 'Tron, either. And having the characteristics that make a 'Tron a 'Tron is fine in an emulation--as long as they're fairly consistent, I'd say. Otherwise, it's difficult to work around them.

The only thing I might disagree with is on the hum. It could be filtered out, but in lower notes it would be rather difficult, since it would be part of the instrument sound. In something like SoundForge, it would be very easy to batch-process the samples, either way. I haven't looked to see how many have the hum, but the violins do.

I wouldn't expect the end-user to have to filter them, though. If the hum were removed from the samples before they got to the end-user, the synth would be easier to use (and sound better, too). You don't want to have to send out a disclaimer with the synth telling potential users that they'll have to engage a high-pass (or notch) filter just to use the synth.

Steve

[evilantal]

I wouldn't expect the end-user to have to filter them, though. If the hum were removed from the samples before they got to the end-user, the synth would be easier to use (and sound better, too). You don't want to have to send out a disclaimer with the synth telling potential users that they'll have to engage a high-pass (or notch) filter just to use the synth.

No exactly, that's what I would suggest as well. Filtering and cleaning the samples before adding them to the dll. Could be as crude as a highpass filter, maybe as an alternate sample set, because it introduces it's own problems (in the lower registers as you mentioned).
But for that aspect to be really succesful, the team'd need an experienced sample manipulator.

You sure you won't "stay on the team"? Seems we're getting constructive again. Your useability comments were valid as well, even though the subsequent delivery and annotations from everyone distracted from the message.

[BlackWinny]

Hello everybody

I'm currently working (in Wavosaur) on each sample, one by one, to cut the glitches that I find. 350 samples one by one...

Previously to that task I have had to learn how to do. It would have been nice to have a clue to find the way to do. I have finally found alone, it took me a full day to understand how to do... but also to struggle with the three free audio editor tools (Audacity, Ocenaudio, Wavosaur) that I have, in order to manipulate easily the samples. I'm a bit visually impaired and it's not easy... especially when in addition I had never modified samples. And these glitches are extremely discrete (perhaps my ears are not as good as those of the "experts") so it is sometimes not by the ears that I find them... but by browsing them cycle after cycle ! 350 samples of around 8 seconds each one ! Phew ! To finish the cello (only the cello) yesterday evening it asked me 4 hours. It means that there will be for about 40 hours to watch the samples by browsing them given that there are 10 instruments. An extremely long and repetitive task. But I like it because (sorry if I ramble) it gives me new occasions to continue to learn.

I would have simply liked planetearth to react in a more kind way when I wrote that I didn't hear these glitches. Because it is true, I don't hear many of them, but only some of them, and I couldn't think that these samples would present a problem in BW-Tron given that they are exactly the same in RedTron and other tools based on the famous Taijiguy samples. Same thing about their lengths by the way. Why would it suddenly be a problem when it is not the case when they are used in RedTron... and worse: in the original Mellotron itself.

I would have liked other reactions than an interlocutor feeling offended by a confusion on an expression ("It's a shame that...") which has two totally different senses in English and than "I'm not going to be the one 'teaching' you anything. Have a good day, gentlemen. And I wish you luck.". Everybody needs to learn things he doesn't know. And there are other ways to say "Sorry I can't help you". Because your reply, Steve, was rather crudely telling "I don't want to explain you even shortly how to do. Adios!"

I'm happy to see you back, Steve.

There are other things that I don't understand. You told about the world "Mellotron" that you see somewhere about BW-Tron in your Sonar plugin list. For me it is a subject of great perplexity... because I have hunted the world "Mellotron" in the plugin many versions ago. And as far as I can check, this word isn't present anywhere any more in the new versions since the beginning of February.

There is another thing that I don't see here at home in Mulab 6, Mulab 7, Reaper 5, Reaper 4, Cantabile 2, and SAVIhost 1.42. It is the behavior of the knobs when changing the presets of the timbres. Here, in all these DAWS and hosts, the knobs behave correctly. That's why I answered two days ago that I don't understand. Hey... it is legitimate to answer this.

Once more, it is Wolfgang who gave me a clue. Perhaps the issue would disappear by changing the number of internal presets declared in BW-Tron (currently "1") to 128 and by copying a first "dummy preset" to all the 128 slots of the table. Synthedit is known to have issues with the management of the presets, so perhaps the issue would disappear by this attempt. So in addition to the cleaning of the 350 samples I'm also doing this change. But I shall not be able to test it myself, of course... given that I don't observe this issue on my system. So it will be to the beta-testers to check if it fixes the issue.

And about the "mirror" between the knobs in Set A and Set B, as I replied it is simply a relic of the very first beta-versions that I have just forgot to correct in the last ones.

Nobody, neither me nor Wolfgang, hasn't ever wanted to "dismiss" anything. It is normal to discuss and to see if the origin of an issue is in the plugin itself or in the way we understand it... or sometimes (yes, it happens to everybody) in one's own environment.

I want to finish this post by a point I really want to be clear: Wolfgang is NOT a developer of BW-Tron. Wolfgang is simply the man who here in this thread brings me a huge help on the understanding of technical things that I'm learning. He has perfectly understood that I'm a beginner in development but that I'm also passionate in what I do and he has the wonderful generosity to help me by giving me clues to progress in my knowledge using my development of BW-Tron as an excellent subject of experiments. And for that, he (and SFD too for many other aspects not related to the coding but to the GUI) receives my very great gratitude.

[evilantal]

I can confirm that the latest version of the plugin is called "Mellotron" in Reaper 5 as well. Or it would have to be that Reaper has cached the name with the pluginID somehow and just presents the old title again. Don't know how to check that, though.

The preset behavior is as follows for me:
- If I turn some knobs, they are not reset when I choose a different instrument/sample set/timbre from either the left or right dropdown. That's what I would expect and indeed how I would like it.
- If I save presets as fxp with my DAW and recall them later the knobs do change to what was saved in the fxp. Also what I would expect and what I would like.

Seems the presets are working as intended for me at least.

I can also see how the "Octave" button's functionality could be confusing for people used to "Transpose +-" functionality.

[WOK]

Here, I can't see the name "Mellotron" neither in Energy-xt nore in Reaper.
But I found another problem: opening and closing the GUI window several times crashes the plugin and the host.

[evilantal]

Here, I can't see the name "Mellotron" neither in Energy-xt nore in Reaper.

Seems a cache thing then.....

[Yeager]

Same here W7 FLStudio

But I found another problem: opening and closing the GUI window several times crashes the plugin and the host.

[sfd]

Blackwinny won't be able to respond for at least a week. He had go go away to participate in a burial of a loved familly member.
He hope to be able to get back this sunday.

[WOK]

I hope everything is OK with Blackwinny
after his bereavement.....