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Cinebient
KVRAF
 
3406 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:13 am Re: Modern soft synths

ghettosynth wrote:Here is a quick example of what I think is a simple and interesting instrument.

It's built from some blocks and Chet Singer's excellent Serenade violin synthesizer.

I've modified Serenade slightly to allow for automatic bowing from the two synced LFOs that are summed with the mixer. This allows automatic tempo synced bowing, the manual bow is simply added to the tempo synced bow. Pressure is mapped to the shape of the LFOs so applying pressure changes the bowing in real time.

The second LFO and the Envelope above map to the filter and are also triggered by gate input.

This yields an expressive instrument that has is interesting above and beyond the capability of the physical model. It is, in fact, a synthesizer. Slow attack and decay times yield tones not possible with any real violin, but, the physical modeled violin yields tones that are just not easily accomplished with typical subtractive techniques. Even though this is a monosynth it's not possible to do this without an environment that lets you combine the elements at a voice level.

For those interested in building their reaktor skills, note how this seamlessly combines non-blocks instruments with blocks instruments. You are not limited to just using blocks by themselves.

Schematic is provided on the right, go build it yourself if you're interested. If anyone wants, I can post a clip of the modifications they're fairly simple, but I won't bother if nobody is interested.

Image


While this is very interesting i still think that the "few dollar app" Finger Fiddle does it a lot better f.e. Mainly due to the input options.
I wonder if it is possible to create multi-touch tools for windows 10 within Reaktor.
While i really think the sonic possibilities are awesome it doesn´t matter if the form of input and/or interaction with sound sources are limited.
For me that is not modern. But that is of course just my useless opinion here.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10799 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:28 am Re: Modern soft synths

Cinebient wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:Here is a quick example of what I think is a simple and interesting instrument.

It's built from some blocks and Chet Singer's excellent Serenade violin synthesizer.

I've modified Serenade slightly to allow for automatic bowing from the two synced LFOs that are summed with the mixer. This allows automatic tempo synced bowing, the manual bow is simply added to the tempo synced bow. Pressure is mapped to the shape of the LFOs so applying pressure changes the bowing in real time.

The second LFO and the Envelope above map to the filter and are also triggered by gate input.

This yields an expressive instrument that has is interesting above and beyond the capability of the physical model. It is, in fact, a synthesizer. Slow attack and decay times yield tones not possible with any real violin, but, the physical modeled violin yields tones that are just not easily accomplished with typical subtractive techniques. Even though this is a monosynth it's not possible to do this without an environment that lets you combine the elements at a voice level.

For those interested in building their reaktor skills, note how this seamlessly combines non-blocks instruments with blocks instruments. You are not limited to just using blocks by themselves.

Schematic is provided on the right, go build it yourself if you're interested. If anyone wants, I can post a clip of the modifications they're fairly simple, but I won't bother if nobody is interested.

Image


While this is very interesting i still think that the "few dollar app" Finger Fiddle does it a lot better f.e. Mainly due to the input options.


Does what better? Tempo synced automatic bowing, I don't believe that it does that. I know that it doesn't have a resonant acid filter with FM filter modulation on the output triggered by an envelope generator. It's not a synthesizer, it's just a virtual violin. I'm quite sure that it can't be modified to have the bowing intensity or, any other parameter, modulated by your DAW. At the end of the day it's yet another iphone app.

This is an example of combining synthesis techniques at the synthesizer level. I'm not trying to sell Chet Singer's violin, and frankly, neither is he, it doesn't cost a few dollars, it's free in the library.
Cinebient
KVRAF
 
3406 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:45 am Re: Modern soft synths

ghettosynth wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:Here is a quick example of what I think is a simple and interesting instrument.

It's built from some blocks and Chet Singer's excellent Serenade violin synthesizer.

I've modified Serenade slightly to allow for automatic bowing from the two synced LFOs that are summed with the mixer. This allows automatic tempo synced bowing, the manual bow is simply added to the tempo synced bow. Pressure is mapped to the shape of the LFOs so applying pressure changes the bowing in real time.

The second LFO and the Envelope above map to the filter and are also triggered by gate input.

This yields an expressive instrument that has is interesting above and beyond the capability of the physical model. It is, in fact, a synthesizer. Slow attack and decay times yield tones not possible with any real violin, but, the physical modeled violin yields tones that are just not easily accomplished with typical subtractive techniques. Even though this is a monosynth it's not possible to do this without an environment that lets you combine the elements at a voice level.

For those interested in building their reaktor skills, note how this seamlessly combines non-blocks instruments with blocks instruments. You are not limited to just using blocks by themselves.

Schematic is provided on the right, go build it yourself if you're interested. If anyone wants, I can post a clip of the modifications they're fairly simple, but I won't bother if nobody is interested.

Image


While this is very interesting i still think that the "few dollar app" Finger Fiddle does it a lot better f.e. Mainly due to the input options.


Does what better? Tempo synced automatic bowing, I don't believe that it does that. I know that it doesn't have a resonant acid filter with FM filter modulation on the output triggered by an envelope generator. It's not a synthesizer, it's just a virtual violin. I'm quite sure that it can't be modified to have the bowing intensity or, any other parameter, modulated by your DAW. At the end of the day it's yet another iphone app.

This is an example of combining synthesis techniques at the synthesizer level. I'm not trying to sell Chet Singer's violin, and frankly, neither is he, it doesn't cost a few dollars, it's free in the library.


It does everything you said in real time manually. It´s a synth since it uses physical modeling and no samples. I don´t know about the engine in detail behind it of course and what filters or whatever it uses.
But f.e. you use your finger to bow exact in the speed you would do with a real violin. You can change the speed in realtime like you want. You can add vibrato and you can morph between articulations in realtime as well. You can do tremolos morphing slowly into a long slow bow.
YOu can do slurs, portamento...everything without a single automation or keyswitch etc.
You can do things like going seemless into sulponticello when you change the pressure (yes it uses X, Y and Z axis) and/or position of your bowing.
It still doesn´t come close enough to a real string instrument or some good scripted sample libraries but it is the closest how you would play a real violin i think.
And that is what i mean with form of input. There are so many possibilities today with "modern" GUI´s to interact with a sound without you have to deal with tons of automations and keyswitches. Of course only if you like live playing with those instruments.
I mean i mainly use my desktop tools, synths etc. but there are a few little apps where i think they are far behind everything i see in my freaking VST collection.
Not the sound engine itself but how i can control and change sound in real-time and how expressive it can be.
If someone would combine these now with the advanced synthesis option within Reaktor i would be happy.
So my question again, could i create those multi-touch (MPE midi) GUI´s with Reaktor too?
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10799 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:51 am Re: Modern soft synths

Cinebient wrote:It does everything you said in real time manually.


Yes, that's not my interest here. This also has manual bowing, but I don't care. That wasn't the point of my post.

It´s a synth since it uses physical modeling and no samples.


It is not a subtractive synth built from a physical model as a sound source. That was the point of my post, I'm not talking about violins in general. I don't care about playing them manually.

So my question again, could i create those multi-touch (MPE midi) GUI´s with Reaktor too?


There's a thread on this over at the NI forum, ask over there. It's not an interest for me. To be clear, I'm not here to sell Reaktor, I'm talking about my approach to synthesizers in general. My post was just an example of the value of combining different methods. It could have just as easily been a PM modeled clarinet being used to emulate a 303 type sound.
Cinebient
KVRAF
 
3406 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:56 am Re: Modern soft synths

ghettosynth wrote:
Cinebient wrote:It does everything you said in real time manually.


Yes, that's not my interest here. This also has manual bowing, but I don't care. That wasn't the point of my post.

It´s a synth since it uses physical modeling and no samples.


It is not a subtractive synth built from a physical model as a sound source. That was the point of my post, I'm not talking about violins in general. I don't care about playing them manually.

So my question again, could i create those multi-touch (MPE midi) GUI´s with Reaktor too?


There's a thread on this over at the NI forum, ask over there. It's not an interest for me. To be clear, I'm not here to sell Reaktor, I'm talking about my approach to synthesizers in general. My post was just an example of the value of combining different methods. It could have just as easily been a PM modeled clarinet being used to emulate a 303 type sound.


It seems nothing what you don´t like, know or think is of interest for you.
This is of course O.K. but you might think about that you are not alone in this universe.
It sounding more and more like you will just sell Reaktor.
Maybe open your eyes a bit and respect other opinions as well.
I really accept your opinion but i wonder why you won´t understand that it´s not the holy synth grail for everyone.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10799 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:19 am Re: Modern soft synths

Cinebient wrote:It seems nothing what you don´t like, know or think is of interest for you.
This is of course O.K. but you might think about that you are not alone in this universe.

Seriously? You responded to my post, misunderstood it, bitched about this thread should be locked, and now you're telling me that I'm not alone?

Maybe open your eyes a bit and respect other opinions as well.

What opinion? If you had not responded to my post I just would have ignored that which I'm not interested in. Do the same.


I really accept your opinion but i wonder why you won´t understand that it´s not the holy synth grail for everyone.


Again, I don't care if it is or it isn't, if you're not interested, then why are you responding?

I told you that there is a thread on MPE over at NI, go look if you're ACTUALLY interested. Then you can come back here and report what you find. I'm not going to do your homework for you. It's not what I'm interested in.
User avatar
wagtunes
KVRAF
 
11732 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:28 am Re: Modern soft synths

ghettosynth wrote:
Cinebient wrote:It seems nothing what you don´t like, know or think is of interest for you.
This is of course O.K. but you might think about that you are not alone in this universe.

Seriously? You responded to my post, misunderstood it, bitched about this thread should be locked, and now you're telling me that I'm not alone?

Maybe open your eyes a bit and respect other opinions as well.

What opinion? If you had not responded to my post I just would have ignored that which I'm not interested in. Do the same.


I really accept your opinion but i wonder why you won´t understand that it´s not the holy synth grail for everyone.


Again, I don't care if it is or it isn't, if you're not interested, then why are you responding?

I told you that there is a thread on MPE over at NI, go look if you're ACTUALLY interested. Then you can come back here and report what you find. I'm not going to do your homework for you. It's not what I'm interested in.


I think the problem people are having (I've long gotten past it) is that you come off kind of like this to sum up.

"Reaktor is the best. If you don't see that there's something wrong with you."

It may not be your intention, but that's how you come off to people.

Me? Eh, don't really care anymore. When I find some time, I'm going to actually give Reaktor a 2nd chance and try to learn it at least enough to do simple things with it. I know at least if I do that much and get stuck on something and come here with questions, I can pretty much count on you to fill in the blanks for me as you seem to understand the system well enough.
Cinebient
KVRAF
 
3406 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:39 am Re: Modern soft synths

I agree with wagtunes here.
Of course ghettosynth has some valid points.
And yes, best thing is of course to ignore all this stuff and create something.
But we humans always need to say something...even if that doesn´t matter or interest anyone else. I´m guilty too. At least i know that.
Bitched about this thread? Maybe you misunderstood the " :D "
But i have a "strange" kind of humor sometimes i know.
Maybe we just all talking bullshit here.
But if several people say there is something wrong.....maybe it is.
Don´t take it so serious. Call me an asshole...i´m fine with it.
Life is too short. :D
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10799 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:43 am Re: Modern soft synths

wagtunes wrote:I think the problem people are having (I've long gotten past it) is that you come off kind of like this to sum up.

"Reaktor is the best. If you don't see that there's something wrong with you."

It may not be your intention, but that's how you come off to people.


No, I think that the only problem is that I responded in the first place against my better judgement. That's alright, problem fixed.

In any case, there is nothing more flexible than Reaktor other than native coding. That's not just an opinion. In fact, if you know of something more flexible and powerful, I'd love to hear about it.
Cinebient
KVRAF
 
3406 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Postby Cinebient; Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:49 am Re: Modern soft synths

ghettosynth wrote:
wagtunes wrote:I think the problem people are having (I've long gotten past it) is that you come off kind of like this to sum up.

"Reaktor is the best. If you don't see that there's something wrong with you."

It may not be your intention, but that's how you come off to people.


No, I think that the only problem is that I responded in the first place against my better judgement. That's alright, problem fixed.

In any case, there is nothing more flexible than Reaktor other than native coding. That's not just an opinion. In fact, if you know of something more flexible and powerful, I'd love to hear about it.


It´s still your opinion and the term "flexible" is flexible as well.
When it comes to pure synthesis i really agree here with you! But there are other things which other people might find more "modern" and useful which Reaktor never could do (at least for now).
I hope i don´t offended you in any way because that was not my intention.
User avatar
wagtunes
KVRAF
 
11732 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:59 am Re: Modern soft synths

ghettosynth wrote:
wagtunes wrote:I think the problem people are having (I've long gotten past it) is that you come off kind of like this to sum up.

"Reaktor is the best. If you don't see that there's something wrong with you."

It may not be your intention, but that's how you come off to people.


No, I think that the only problem is that I responded in the first place against my better judgement. That's alright, problem fixed.

In any case, there is nothing more flexible than Reaktor other than native coding. That's not just an opinion. In fact, if you know of something more flexible and powerful, I'd love to hear about it.


Let me tell you a little story. Don't worry, I'll keep it short.

I was on the fence about getting Komplete 9 (yes, that long ago) until somebody started describing Reaktor. As a modular synth lover, I was intrigued enough to buy Komplete just to get Reaktor.

There is no question that nothing I own is more flexible. However, with that flexibility comes a very steep learning curve. For some people, myself included, that learning curve is just too steep. We don't have the brain power and/or patience to deal with it.

So in that respect, Reaktor is not for everybody. It doesn't matter how good it is if people can't wrap their brains around it.

xoxos thinks everybody should be able to dive into C++ and build their own synth from scratch. He can't conceive that for some people this is beyond difficult. I don't think you're quite at that point of arrogance yet but you have a twinge of it. You throw these schematics of Reaktor at me like it's child's play, expecting me to pick it up just like that. Well, to some of us, it's far from child's play. It's a royal headache.

It's your failure to understand and/or accept that, that bothers us.

Well, at least it did.

Now I just don't care anymore. My day with Reaktor will come or it won't. But I'm done being allowed to be made to feel stupid just because right now I don't get it.

Again, if that wasn't your intention, it's just the way you come off.

And with that, I think I've said all I need to say on this subject.

Modern synth? Let me see if I can come up with another one.
stratum
KVRAF
 
1800 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:07 am Re: Modern soft synths

If I coded a synth with c++ it would probably be easier than doing the same with Reactor. That's a problem with age though, not reactor's fault:) Similarly a child can spend a lot of time with a violin without getting frustrated, at age 40 it either has to happen within half an hour, or I'll quit trying.
~stratum~
chk071
KVRAF
 
15767 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:24 am Re: Modern soft synths

wagtunes wrote:xoxos thinks everybody should be able to dive into C++ and build their own synth from scratch. He can't conceive that for some people this is beyond difficult.

It seems like it is equally difficult for him to empathize or judge others, as it will be for most people to learn, and master C++, or programming in general. ;)
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10799 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:25 am Re: Modern soft synths

stratum wrote:If I coded a synth with c++ it would probably be easier than doing the same with Reactor. That's a problem with age though, not reactor's fault:) Similarly a child can spend a lot of time with a violin without getting frustrated, at age 40 it either has to happen within half an hour, or I'll quit trying.


There's no way that you could complete what I just posted in C++ in less time than it would take you to learn Reaktor from scratch, download the single ensemble from the library, and combine it with the other library instruments.

I don't care how good you are at C++, and to be clear, I've been paid to program in C++ for a good portion of my life, you will not be that efficient. Even if you could find code that was just like the violin.

Sometimes things are worth coding in a native language, even if you aren't selling them, but they're not more efficient even if you are skilled.

There's a reason NI uses Reaktor for a lot of their development and FM8 and Absynth are still in the dark ages.
stratum
KVRAF
 
1800 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby stratum; Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:29 am Re: Modern soft synths

There's no way that you could complete what I just posted in C++ in less time than it would take you to learn Reaktor from scratch, download the single ensemble from the library, and combine it with the other library instruments.


Quite correct, but I can make something in the right direction, like installing the vst sdk :wink:
It's just that trying learn how to do simple things again and again using different tools is quite boring. Find something that works for you and stick with it.
~stratum~
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