any new competitor to Diva for fat sounds?

[deastman]

Well, i doubt that they would just put up some stuff to decorate their studio, when they do some "How track AB was made" production videos. And Jean-Michel Jarre e.g. always had the gear he used printed on the backside of his records. Unless that is some kind of conspiracy too.

Anyway, didn't Howard Scarr state somewhere that artists which do endorsements aren't paid, but really use, and love all the stuff they're endorsing? It may look weird, but, why not create a win-win situation, create publicity for yourself, AND for the company providing you with their gear?

I know of one guitar god who was paid to endorse a brand of amps. He would have them visible on stage, and the real amps hidden behind them.

[lacandon]

Reading the lists of gear on Tangerine Dream album covers was half the point of buying the albums

Although only a few actually had them, the live concerts IIRC.

But back then you couldn't just download the studio.

...and more often than not, you couldn't afford to buy it either. My first synth was a Juno 106. It was also my brother's first synth, as well as two other guys in the neighborhood's first synth. Four of us had to scrape all our cash together to get one and we passed it around like it was the holy grail. When I moved to California, they couldn't even come up with the money to buy my quarter, and I just left it. My synth for a long time after that was a Yamaha Portasound though guitar pedals. I think my dad bought a new Datsun B210 for what the Jupiter 8 sold for. I think we forget how expensive those instruments were, and to non Tangerine Dream level musicians, having one was often not an option.

Now we've got hardware synths that are in the neighborhood of a Model D going for $300. Considering what you need to run Legend, that's a bargain and a half, but if you already own that computer and sound card, what a world we live in that you can get close to that magic for $99. Maybe you buy both and polychain them for a 5 voice Model D... though every purest will yell, "every fifth voice still does't sound like an original Model D!" So, for those people, buy the original, or keep dreaming while you save.

What it really boils down to is, we live in amazing times. There's something in every price range that can make some amazing sounds. If the nature of your tools is holding you back in 2017, I can assure you, it ain't the tools.

Totally agree its not the space its the rocket... even the crapiest gear today was super lux yesterday ...

[pdxindy]

I do notice that the U-He fans are a bit less tolerant of any criticism than pretty much any other developer.

My observation of u-he 'fans' is that many of them are welcoming of criticism, and indeed offer their own sometimes. Many a good discussion has ensued.

Sometimes someone is being something of a dick and various people ('fans' and otherwise) respond to that which has nothing to do with critique.

And of course many people tend to not like being lumped into crude categories (which is usually done for the purpose of saying something derogatory about them)

Well, I don't know how stating that I felt the filter FM on Diva didn't sound as close to my hardware as RePro-1 could be taken as being a dick, but, whatever. It got ugly pretty fast, especially considering the other half of my argument was praising another U-He product. I've also been critical of Diva's UX (how anyone thinks the mod effect system is done well is beyond me... the filter is being modulated by... Add... wtf?) Anyway, I was similarly attacked for suggesting that there is a better way to present that. Maybe I come off as a dick, but I've worked in that job for a long time. If someone from U-He suggested a better way to code a softsynth that I was trying to make, I'd be all ears. Hell, I'd take UI criticism too, as I know from experience that designing a UI for something that you're making is very difficult, because no matter what you do, it makes sense, because you're making it! "Forest from the trees" type of thing. It's super difficult. I didn't really criticize the UI art, because it's good. Anyway, the torrent of personal attacks... sounded like cult members to me... being led by the cult's leader.

[edit] and if you think I'm not a fan, I do own most of U-He's stuff, and I think I even bought Bazille a few weeks after the above anecdote.

And for each instance where it went like you are describing, I can point to many more places where it didn't.

That could have just been some noise in the system. Sometimes all it takes is one cranky person. One or two random instances does not a pattern make... nor does it serve to lump all people into a category. How many people who like u-he stuff are there? What percentage of them said something in that thread? Maybe 1%? So from a very tiny percentage of total people and referencing one thread, you have drawn a conclusion about all the people all the time.

Of course you are free to do so, but it would not be surprising to lead to negative interactions.

[machinesworking]

I do notice that the U-He fans are a bit less tolerant of any criticism than pretty much any other developer. Granted, Urs deserves a lot of good will for the generous feature additions that go into his free updates, and the general high quality of all his plugins, but if you do some searching you'll find a thread where I criticized the tame, muted sound of the audio rate filter mod on Diva compared to RePro-1, Monark and Legend, and people came down on my like I was selling their 5 year olds heroin. Even Urs joined in and mocked and belittled me... until later in the thread admitting that he used lower frequency limits in Diva to achieve the polyphony he wanted at a usable CPU level. Totally understandable, but I didn't quite get why when I pointed it out the knee jerk reaction was to chase me out of the village with burning torches. So... yup, I see U-He's following as a little cultish at times.

I notice that the hive mind of KVR goes through cycles, at one point admitting you used macs or Logic meant instant flame war about how much Apple sucks. Most of the time when Arturia come up someone dogs their plug ins etc. At one point Reaper could do no wrong. etc. etc. Mostly people like to debate things here. To put it another way, You go to the Ableton forums or Motunation and talk about limitations of Live or Digital Performer respectively, and people will often take it the wrong way, acting like you're saying Live or DP are all bad, and that seems to be exactly what you experienced here, it's not surprising. Given that, I've read your posts enough to know you don't always come across like you're giving constructive criticism, rather berating a product or workflow, buying choice etc. Not saying I somehow manage to be the best at diplomacy, ( I suck at it really ) I just think it's a valuable thing to own your part in whatever perceived injustice you're experiencing. Any statement that X group of users is cult like for instance is going to come across like person Y has a cross to bear.

And in a totally different planet it seams we're talking about this in a thread started by someone who gives relatively vague reasons for not wanting to buy Diva, then goes on to post numerous instances where Dive is doing exactly what they want, and "what other softsynths can do this?" Hardly anyone has questioned why the OP doesn't just freaking buy Diva? but this place is filled with cult members willing to string up anyone admitting they like any of the two dozen recommendations this thread has in it for the OP, so they don't have to buy that awful Diva that makes all the sounds they like.

[chk071]

The only thing which put me off was the CPU load in the past.

So, i guess that's a valid reason to look elsewhere... even though, as has been pointed out, Diva isn't really THAT heavy from a nowadays perspective. But, i totally agree with you, i think OP should just get Diva. The older i get, the more i freaking hate second choices. Why waste your money and time with stuff which won't get you where you want to get? Doesn't make sense IMO. You will spend money on this hobby (or profession) anyway, so... and you won't be happy with second choices, if i learnt something, then that.

[wagtunes]

The only thing which put me off was the CPU load in the past.

So, i guess that's a valid reason to look elsewhere... even though, as has been pointed out, Diva isn't really THAT heavy from a nowadays perspective. But, i totally agree with you, i think OP should just get Diva. The older i get, the more i freaking hate second choices. Why waste your money and time with stuff which won't get you where you want to get? Doesn't make sense IMO. You will spend money on this hobby (or profession) anyway, so... and you won't be happy with second choices, if i learnt something, then that.

Except you know what? And don't get me wrong, I love Diva. I have it and every synth U-he put out. But the thing is, with the overall basic quality of MOST synths today, you don't really lose a ton going from one synth to another. And in the context of a mix, honestly, few people could tell one synth from another.

So yeah, if a synth might give you a little trouble CPU wise, it's not the end of the world to drop down to a "Lesser' model. It's not like we're talking about the difference between a MInimoog and a Commodore 64.

[pdxindy]

The only thing which put me off was the CPU load in the past.

So, i guess that's a valid reason to look elsewhere... even though, as has been pointed out, Diva isn't really THAT heavy from a nowadays perspective. But, i totally agree with you, i think OP should just get Diva. The older i get, the more i freaking hate second choices. Why waste your money and time with stuff which won't get you where you want to get? Doesn't make sense IMO. You will spend money on this hobby (or profession) anyway, so... and you won't be happy with second choices, if i learnt something, then that.

Except you know what? And don't get me wrong, I love Diva. I have it and every synth U-he put out. But the thing is, with the overall basic quality of MOST synths today, you don't really lose a ton going from one synth to another. And in the context of a mix, honestly, few people could tell one synth from another.

So yeah, if a synth might give you a little trouble CPU wise, it's not the end of the world to drop down to a "Lesser' model. It's not like we're talking about the difference between a MInimoog and a Commodore 64.

Except there is no synth that has the various modules that Diva has.

[Examigan]

The only thing which put me off was the CPU load in the past.

So, i guess that's a valid reason to look elsewhere... even though, as has been pointed out, Diva isn't really THAT heavy from a nowadays perspective. But, i totally agree with you, i think OP should just get Diva. The older i get, the more i freaking hate second choices. Why waste your money and time with stuff which won't get you where you want to get? Doesn't make sense IMO. You will spend money on this hobby (or profession) anyway, so... and you won't be happy with second choices, if i learnt something, then that.

Except you know what? And don't get me wrong, I love Diva. I have it and every synth U-he put out. But the thing is, with the overall basic quality of MOST synths today, you don't really lose a ton going from one synth to another. And in the context of a mix, honestly, few people could tell one synth from another.

So yeah, if a synth might give you a little trouble CPU wise, it's not the end of the world to drop down to a "Lesser' model. It's not like we're talking about the difference between a MInimoog and a Commodore 64.

It can sound pretty good even with just the "fast" accuracy setting, and using the Multicore button can help.

[wagtunes]

The only thing which put me off was the CPU load in the past.

So, i guess that's a valid reason to look elsewhere... even though, as has been pointed out, Diva isn't really THAT heavy from a nowadays perspective. But, i totally agree with you, i think OP should just get Diva. The older i get, the more i freaking hate second choices. Why waste your money and time with stuff which won't get you where you want to get? Doesn't make sense IMO. You will spend money on this hobby (or profession) anyway, so... and you won't be happy with second choices, if i learnt something, then that.

Except you know what? And don't get me wrong, I love Diva. I have it and every synth U-he put out. But the thing is, with the overall basic quality of MOST synths today, you don't really lose a ton going from one synth to another. And in the context of a mix, honestly, few people could tell one synth from another.

So yeah, if a synth might give you a little trouble CPU wise, it's not the end of the world to drop down to a "Lesser' model. It's not like we're talking about the difference between a MInimoog and a Commodore 64.

Except there is no synth that has the various modules that Diva has.

Well no, of course not. But for every sound that Diva can make, there is a synth somewhere that can approximate it. So if you have to get a a suite of synths (I mean who has just one VST these days) it's not the end of the world especially if, should you need 5 distinct sounds from Diva using 5 completely different combinations of oscillators and filters, you're going to use a lot more CPU with those 5 instances than with 5 different synths creating those 5 sounds, if in fact you have to use 5 different synths.

Look, I have some songs that I've done with upwards of 35 to 50 tracks. I can't squeeze 50 tracks of Diva into a tune even with my super powerful rig. I'm gonna blow a gasket trying to use that many instances. Sure, I could freeze everything but what a pain that is should I have to make changes.

Point is, you don't get that kind of sound at no cost. At least not yet. So yeah, if I can get a close enough sound with one of my other 100 VSTs and I know I'm going to be doing a 50 track song, I'm not going to be so quick to pull up Diva except for sounds that I absolutely won't compromise on.

[Ingonator]

The only thing which put me off was the CPU load in the past.

So, i guess that's a valid reason to look elsewhere... even though, as has been pointed out, Diva isn't really THAT heavy from a nowadays perspective. But, i totally agree with you, i think OP should just get Diva. The older i get, the more i freaking hate second choices. Why waste your money and time with stuff which won't get you where you want to get? Doesn't make sense IMO. You will spend money on this hobby (or profession) anyway, so... and you won't be happy with second choices, if i learnt something, then that.

Except you know what? And don't get me wrong, I love Diva. I have it and every synth U-he put out. But the thing is, with the overall basic quality of MOST synths today, you don't really lose a ton going from one synth to another. And in the context of a mix, honestly, few people could tell one synth from another.

So yeah, if a synth might give you a little trouble CPU wise, it's not the end of the world to drop down to a "Lesser' model. It's not like we're talking about the difference between a MInimoog and a Commodore 64.

Except there is no synth that has the various modules that Diva has.

Yes, i guess i mentioned that more than one time already. With another synth you could only replace parts of the modules in Diva.
For the Jupiter 6 and JP-8000 modules there does not seem to be a real replacement at all.
In other synths only teh Supersaw of the JP-8000 is available but not all the other waveshapes of the real thing.

As a dedicated Minimoog i prefer The Legend but the Minimoog modules in Diva got a few features not available in Teh Legend.

[machinesworking]

As a dedicated Minimoog i prefer The Legend but the Minimoog modules in Diva got a few features not available in Teh Legend.

I got Diva last, I still own some beast poly analogs from days of yore.
I never did, and I still don't treat it as somehow an emulation, Urs even said it was more of a homage, with the parts he didn't care for removed, and/or as Zero Crossing pointed out, some things compromised so it can do things the hardware can't like polyphony etc.

It's clearer sounding than my old analogs, so it sits in the mix in a different place, and I'm no purist by any means, the current song has dive and the Oberheim Xpander here on bass duty, since it sounds better that way than either alone to me. Just saying, don't downplay it's actual sound as sort of a jam of all it's predecessors without all the funk and slop.

Diva rules on it's own, without analyzing it compared to the synths it takes from, same thing is true for Arturia "emulations". I agree with Urs they're not as close, but they stand on their own quite well if you're not A/Bing them.

I have that Xpander, and occasionally I use the Matrix 12 from Arturia because the cleaner sound and snappier ADSR of the software works better. If I want grunge though, the real deal wins.

[ghettosynth]

Diva rules on it's own, without analyzing it compared to the synths it takes from, same thing is true for Arturia "emulations". I agree with Urs they're not as close, but they stand on their own quite well if you're not A/Bing them.

Of course all of this is relative to your own experiences and standards, and, I do own the Arturia stuff and even use it from time to time. For me though Diva marked a turning point in terms of the degree to which VAs were good enough to replace analog in sufficient cases for my taste.

I also have a number of vintage analogs and I find the difference between them and Diva isn't as often worth bothering with as the difference between Diva and the Arturia plugins. Said differently, if I only had the Arturia plugins then I'd work a bit harder to use my analog stuff more often.

I do think that the progress made with filters marks a transition and that it divides synths into pre-Diva and post-Diva, more or less. So, if it's older than Diva then I generally don't think it's comparable and I assume that's what people are asking when they ask questions like the OP asks.

YMMV

[machinesworking]

Diva rules on it's own, without analyzing it compared to the synths it takes from, same thing is true for Arturia "emulations". I agree with Urs they're not as close, but they stand on their own quite well if you're not A/Bing them.

Of course all of this is relative to your own experiences and standards, and, I do own the Arturia stuff and even use it from time to time. For me though Diva marked a turning point in terms of the degree to which VAs were good enough to replace analog in sufficient cases for my taste.

I also have a number of vintage analogs and I find the difference between them and Diva isn't as often worth bothering with as the difference between Diva and the Arturia plugins. Said differently, if I only had the Arturia plugins then I'd work a bit harder to use my analog stuff more often.

I do think that the progress made with filters marks a transition and that it divides synths into pre-Diva and post-Diva, more or less. So, if it's older than Diva then I generally don't think it's comparable and I assume that's what people are asking when they ask questions like the OP asks.

YMMV

I can agree with that, although I think it's not just filters. Oscillator drift is is a huge part of perceived warmth IMO. If there's any two parts that stand out when comparing the Xpander to Arturia's Matrix 12, it's the oscs, Arturia's are dead on, the Xpanders not in sync sound chorused naturally etc. Plus none of them do the tweaky high end of analog, and it generally includes aliasing or a filtered sound on the high end.
I still like the old analog stuff for "analog" pads and stacked mono bass etc. and mostly just for my own enjoyment. I tend to write too thickly to really hear the difference, but when messing around with the Xpander or Memorymoog, it's just pleasing to hear.

Diva is a game changer I agree, if Urs ever modeled the Memorymoog filters I would think of selling it, just for the cash! I'll give a heads up to the SEM here too, it might not sound just like it's real counterpart, but it fills a fuzzy analog role for sure.

[Ingonator]

Diva is a game changer I agree, if Urs ever modeled the Memorymoog filters I would think of selling it, just for the cash! I'll give a heads up to the SEM here too, it might not sound just like it's real counterpart, but it fills a fuzzy analog role for sure.

I guess the filters in Memorymoog are close to the Minimoog filters in Diva but the other parts of the Memorymoog like oscillators, envelope etc were based on CEM chips.

The Jupiter 6 oscillators oposing to the decrete Jupiter 8 ones seemed to be based on the CEM3340 chip and teh "Dual VCO" in Diva should be able to replicate that. That module in Diva liek in teh Memorymoog also offers using multiple waeshapes at once for each of teh 2 OScs. Of course the 3rd Osc would be missing from the Memorymoog then.

The best approach to a Memorymoog in Diva should be the "Dual Osc", "Ladder" filter and "analog" envelope modules.

[pdxindy]

Except there is no synth that has the various modules that Diva has.

Well no, of course not. But for every sound that Diva can make, there is a synth somewhere that can approximate it.

In otherwords... there is no real competitor for Diva except a suite of plugins. And I have not come across any other softsynth that emulates the JP-8000 Osc.

And of course, besides the range of osc and filter combinations, Diva just sounds lovely. It is almost effortless to get beautiful sounds. Diva is not replaceable.