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ghettosynth
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10170 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:42 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

fmr wrote:
aciddose wrote:When you don't understand something like "two quadrant vs. four quadrant modulation" it won't help you to just change the subject to something entirely unrelated.

I'll explain what you two are very clearly missing out on:

In an operation there are two variables: x, y

Each of these variables has two "quadrants": negative and positive.

This reduces to a simple multiplication:

1 quadrant * 2 quadrants = 2 quadrants (two quadrant multiplication / modulation)
2 quadrant * 2 quadrants = 4 quadrants (four quadrant multiplication / modulation)

Idiotic post as usual. First, you confused tremolo with vibrato (a noob mistake), and said that RM is similar to FM. Now, you come with this, maybe attempting to launch a cloud over your previous dumb assertion. I only pointed the mistakes, politely (without video links).

here is what you wrote:

aciddose wrote: In fact ring mod is more like FM than AM, which is a partial (reduced depth) version of ring mod. In that sense ring mod is like FM; AM is like vibrato.


Your last answer is the usual, and as usual, nothing of what you said above adds anything useful to the discussion.

And, of course, the usual pict and video links, that "enlighten" a lot. Typical :borg:


I think that you're missing something. There's little wrong with either of his posts. I'm not clear on the analogy to AM with vibrato, but it was qualified by the prior statement and his entire post was about technical understanding and analogy so I can't say that the analogy was incorrect, per se. Please don't bang on about vibrato vs tremolo, I know what the difference is and I'm giving acidose the benefit of the doubt here and believe that he does as well. It's possible that his comment was in error, it's also possible, that he was drawing an analogy from a different perspective, I will let him comment on that. In either case, it does not dismiss the rest of his post.

On Edit: Ok, it's clear now that all he meant was that AM is like vibrato in that they both are examples of two quadrant multiplication, one in amplitude, the other in frequency. Similarly, Ring Mod is like FM in that they are both examples of four quadrant multiplication, one in amplitude, the other in frequency. Sorry for the repetition below, I'm just going to leave the post intact.

.............................................................

FM is like RM in the sense that it's four quadrant multiplication applied to frequency as opposed to amplitude. That defines a sense of comparison from a technical point of view, it is not incongruent with RM is a form of AM, both statements are true.

His post above should not "launch a cloud" for anyone who understands what a quadrant is. In mathematics a quadrant is a region of the x/y plane partitioned by the axes. Since there are four of them, they are called, naturally, quadrants.

A VCA is the classic example of a two quadrant multiplier. The signal is bipolar, i.e. lies in two quadrants, whereas the CV (or modulator) is unipolar, i.e., it lies in one quadrant. Hence the result lies in two quadrants. That is, the output is a scaled version of the input signal. We don't expect a VCA to accept negative control voltages.

Now, if we use a four quadrant multiplier we could apply negative control voltages as well. Positive control voltages would behave as the VCA, negative control voltages would also scale just as positive voltages do, but would invert the signal.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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planetearth
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1219 posts since 10 Jul, 2006, from Tampa

Postby planetearth; Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:05 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ingonator wrote:@aciddose:
First i am not sure if you did actually read my last post above which i updated with some additions a few times.

Well, i had used AM, RM and FM in an actual synth (Xfer Serum) and in the same synth i was able to nail the resulting AM and RM waveshapes with quite simple formulas using the formula parser in the waveform editor of that synth. Not sure what should be "dumb" or wrong about that.

If you have a better example including screenshots, audio demos etc. nobody holds you back to do that.
Personally i stopped just talking and today did some "real world" examples based on actual synths while i admit that those are mostly oscillaoscope screenshots. If i see it makes sense i would also post audio examples but posts like yours do not really encourage me to do that.

Well, while all of this engineer-speak has clearly chased the OP away from this thread :wink:, I for one would appreciate some audio examples, @Ingonator. I'd like to see how musically useful/useless AM synthesis is. Reading the formulas doesn't tell most of us what the sounds could be, so if you have some time (and can ignore those who always seem to talk down to people on here), I believe some audio examples would be interesting to hear.

Steve
Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife.
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aciddose
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11568 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:49 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Amplitude modulation by definition can only produce sum+difference frequencies. It is possible to produce a specific image by using quadrature modulation (not quadrant, that's different) to cancel out either the sum or difference image of the modulator as well as the carrier signal: although one of the two will always be inverted (high frequency becomes low frequency) and therefore not often useful.

Such a quadrature modulation (quadrature = sin + cos, 90 degrees phase) is used in pitch-shifting effects for example.

So unlike frequency modulation the content in the modulated signal can not be greater than the sum of the content in the carrier and modulator signals. See the previous comment in this thread regarding bandwidth.

Amplitude modulation can be thought of as one step higher than "mixing" or addition. It is multiplication.

Frequency modulation however is applied in log/frequency space which makes the effect perceptually more like raising to a power in terms of complexity.

So it is possible to order them like so (by ratio of complexity of input to result):
  1. Additive synthesis (addition, least complex)
  2. AM synthesis (multiplication)
  3. FM synthesis (exponentiation, most complex)

Technically and perhaps by a stretch one might consider any sort of synthesizer including any sort of modulation to be at least AM synthesis. Even additive synthesis including modulation like an amplitude envelope is inherently AM synthesis.

That should explain why you almost never see "AM synthesizers": they're mostly redundant once you already have subtractive synthesizers. The advice that one should consider a modular synthesizer and apply it as desired (purely limited to using "AM synthesis") is likely the best possible option available.

As for examples:
https://soundcloud.com/xhip/quack

Although this is additive, AM, FM and subtractive all at once. If you input pure sine-waves as carrier and modulator and used half depth (single quadrant) AM it is identical to ring mod with the carrier mixed in.

ring mod = sum + difference of modulator and carrier partials
AM = ring mod + carrier

So that would be rather boring.

You can also think of it this way:
AM = sum + difference + carrier
ring mod = AM - carrier
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aciddose
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11568 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:14 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

jancivil wrote:
fmr wrote:
aciddose wrote:When you don't understand something like...

First, you confused tremolo with vibrato (a noob mistake), and said that RM is similar to FM.

Yeah that cuts right through a whole pile of bullshit. To confound tremolo (amplitude variance) with vibrato (frequency or pitch variance) indicates he will misconstruct the very essence of FM, or be simply mistaken about it.


This has already been explained very clearly, but again:

Tremolo = two quadrant modulation of amplitude.
Vibrato = two quadrant modulation of frequency.
"Ring mod" = four quadrant modulation of amplitude.
FM = four quadrant modulation of frequency.

Image
(Some people are visual learners and can't easily comprehend literature. Edited to add this awesome graph. Edited again to place it on imgur for public access. Edited again, LOLs on "tremelo".)

As you can see, since we have two axes there are four quadrants here.
Last edited by aciddose on Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10170 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:20 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

planetearth wrote:
Ingonator wrote:@aciddose:
First i am not sure if you did actually read my last post above which i updated with some additions a few times.

Well, i had used AM, RM and FM in an actual synth (Xfer Serum) and in the same synth i was able to nail the resulting AM and RM waveshapes with quite simple formulas using the formula parser in the waveform editor of that synth. Not sure what should be "dumb" or wrong about that.

If you have a better example including screenshots, audio demos etc. nobody holds you back to do that.
Personally i stopped just talking and today did some "real world" examples based on actual synths while i admit that those are mostly oscillaoscope screenshots. If i see it makes sense i would also post audio examples but posts like yours do not really encourage me to do that.

Well, while all of this engineer-speak has clearly chased the OP away from this thread :wink:, I for one would appreciate some audio examples, @Ingonator. I'd like to see how musically useful/useless AM synthesis is. Reading the formulas doesn't tell most of us what the sounds could be, so if you have some time (and can ignore those who always seem to talk down to people on here), I believe some audio examples would be interesting to hear.

Steve


I think that the upshot is that it isn't really that musically useful. Several of us are playing with it in different contexts for fun but the upshot is that you're not going to get that much out of AM, per se, in terms of rich spectrum beyond what you get with ring modulation as a module in a typical subtractive synth.

Here's a simple sound played three times. The first time it is as originally intended as an FM guitar patch. It's not mine, it's the patch called Alg08: Guitar 1 in FM6. The second time it's played it is with no changes other than all FM modulation has been replaced with AM modulation. The third time that it is played, all modulation has been removed, that is, it's in effect, a simple additive sound from two sine waves each modulated by their respective envelope generator.

https://soundcloud.com/ghettosynth/fmamexample

You can, of course, increase the modulation and the AM example will sound more clangorous whereas for the same settings the FM variant will tend to noise.

So, as a synthesis "method", I'm not convinced that it's useful in and of itself. What I do like, however, is that the AM variant of an FM patch is a mellower version without simply being filtered, and, at the same time, is more interesting than the unmodulated variant.

From a practical point of view, however, I'm not really convinced that one can't obtain similar results by just scaling down the FM modulation globally. In fact, when I do that, it sounds very similar to the AM example.

So, in order to get to "it's a useful method", we have to find the sounds that are unique in some way. There are other sounds that are more interesting than this, however, this was short and easy to create a sound file for, which is what you asked. My favorite sounds so far have been complex and atonal pads that are created in the same way you create FM sounds, however, because it's AM, it is far less likely that they devolve into noise.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aciddose
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11568 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:31 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

This application of quadrature amplitude modulation (bode frequency shifting) is a bit boring but I'm sure people could find more "awesome" examples if enough time browsing around on youtube were invested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP9DazihgoQ

After replacing the link five times this one is actually slightly interesting to listen to since it focuses on manual shifting rather than being driven by a sequence or otherwise.
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planetearth
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1219 posts since 10 Jul, 2006, from Tampa

Postby planetearth; Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:10 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

ghettosynth wrote:
planetearth wrote:
Ingonator wrote:@aciddose:
First i am not sure if you did actually read my last post above which i updated with some additions a few times.

Well, i had used AM, RM and FM in an actual synth (Xfer Serum) and in the same synth i was able to nail the resulting AM and RM waveshapes with quite simple formulas using the formula parser in the waveform editor of that synth. Not sure what should be "dumb" or wrong about that.

If you have a better example including screenshots, audio demos etc. nobody holds you back to do that.
Personally i stopped just talking and today did some "real world" examples based on actual synths while i admit that those are mostly oscillaoscope screenshots. If i see it makes sense i would also post audio examples but posts like yours do not really encourage me to do that.

Well, while all of this engineer-speak has clearly chased the OP away from this thread :wink:, I for one would appreciate some audio examples, @Ingonator. I'd like to see how musically useful/useless AM synthesis is. Reading the formulas doesn't tell most of us what the sounds could be, so if you have some time (and can ignore those who always seem to talk down to people on here), I believe some audio examples would be interesting to hear.

Steve


I think that the upshot is that it isn't really that musically useful. Several of us are playing with it in different contexts for fun but the upshot is that you're not going to get that much out of AM, per se, in terms of rich spectrum beyond what you get with ring modulation as a module in a typical subtractive synth.

Here's a simple sound played three times. The first time it is as originally intended as an FM guitar patch. It's not mine, it's the patch called Alg08: Guitar 1 in FM6. The second time it's played it is with no changes other than all FM modulation has been replaced with AM modulation. The third time that it is played, all modulation has been removed, that is, it's in effect, a simple additive sound from two sine waves each modulated by their respective envelope generator.

https://soundcloud.com/ghettosynth/fmamexample

You can, of course, increase the modulation and the AM example will sound more clangorous whereas for the same settings the FM variant will tend to noise.

So, as a synthesis "method", I'm not convinced that it's useful in and of itself. What I do like, however, is that the AM variant of an FM patch is a mellower version without simply being filtered, and, at the same time, is more interesting than the unmodulated variant.

From a practical point of view, however, I'm not really convinced that one can't obtain similar results by just scaling down the FM modulation globally. In fact, when I do that, it sounds very similar to the AM example.

So, in order to get to "it's a useful method", we have to find the sounds that are unique in some way. There are other sounds that are more interesting than this, however, this was short and easy to create a sound file for, which is what you asked. My favorite sounds so far have been complex and atonal pads that are created in the same way you create FM sounds, however, because it's AM, it is far less likely that they devolve into noise.

I see what you're saying here (and thanks for the examples). And I guess that, while the AM version of the patch could get more clangorous, the initial FM version already has that, so you're right--it doesn't appear that "AM synthesis" brings much to the table.

Complex, atonal pads could be interesting too, and I can see where musicians might want to use them. But from what I've read here, you can pretty much get all the sounds you need from the currently available synthesis methods (including the "AM"/ring modulators currently available in synths), so having a purely "AM Synthesis" synth wouldn't really expand the artist's palette much--thought it might require a degree in engineering just to operate the damn thing. :?

This wasn't my dog or my race, but I do appreciate some of the pointers you all have offered as to where we can find "AM synthesis" (or something like it) in synths we might already have. I'm going to play around with FM8 and Gladiator (and maybe Spire) to see how much damage I can do! Hope the OP gets something useful from all this, too.

Steve
Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife.
ghettosynth
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10170 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:14 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

planetearth wrote:I see what you're saying here (and thanks for the examples). And I guess that, while the AM version of the patch could get more clangorous, the initial FM version already has that, so you're right--it doesn't appear that "AM synthesis" brings much to the table.

Complex, atonal pads could be interesting too, and I can see where musicians might want to use them. But from what I've read here, you can pretty much get all the sounds you need from the currently available synthesis methods (including the "AM"/ring modulators currently available in synths), so having a purely "AM Synthesis" synth wouldn't really expand the artist's palette much--thought it might require a degree in engineering just to operate the damn thing. :?


I do want to say that I think that it's not always about the "sounds that we need." One can make the case that, for example, both FM and additive synths can give us many sounds, if not all the sounds, that we need. It seems to me that it's more about how much effort that it takes to get the sound that we want. For that, most of us turn to particular synths that we favor for certain sounds.

Really, then, the question is less about whether AM can give us some unique sounds but rather, can it get us to the sounds that we want more quickly. Part of the problem with FM synthesis, as a technology, not as a theory, is that it is not particularly amenable to simplistic experimentation. You do have to come at it in a somewhat principled manner. While some may argue that all synths are this way, I suggest that there is something of a continuum and that subtractive synths are more approachable for most people than FM synths are.

So here's another example. Sorry for the gaps, I'm being lazy and I'm using Reaktor's sound recorder so I have to change the synth settings in between each example.

https://soundcloud.com/ghettosynth/fmamexample2

This is a sound that I created quickly as an AM sound. It took me all of a minute to set the operators. I used the FM6 (not FM8, more below) init patch and silenced operators 1 and 2. This yields four operators in a chain 6->5->4->3. So operator 6 AM's 5 which AM's4 which AM's 3 which generates the output.

The second sound that you hear is this patch. The first sound is the patch you get when you convert this AM modulation completely into FM. The third sound is no modulation, and the final sound is very light FM modulation.

I think that the AM sound has much more character than the final lightly modulated FM sound and, in this example, no broad setting of the FM modulation allowed me to recreate the AM sound. Now, could the sound be easily created with just an FM synth, or even a subtractive synth? Almost certainly. However, the key point is that this structure quickly yields a family of tones like this. Moreover, once we start playing with the envelopes, it can get complex and interesting fairly quickly. However, it never really gets noisy. You do have to pay attention to distortion when increasing modulator level.

So in that sense, I think that it can be interesting. I like what I'm getting so far for subtle atonal pads and sort of woody percussion sounds.

Given that we might be interested in this, the question remains, what exactly do we mean by AM as a "synthesis method?" After all, both AM and FM are used in some manner in virtually all synths so it has to be more than just the modulation method.

My simple experimental approach so far has assumed that any interest derived from this will come from chains of operators very much like we see in FM synthesis. FM synthesis, in practice, is really additive synthesis over chains of operators. For example, an organ patch in most FM synths isn't really FM at all, it's just six unmodulated operators being used in an additive sense. So, in this way, an FM and an AM organ patch would be identical. Thinking about it this way allows us to experiment with existing FM patches and explore AM patches with the same structure.

This wasn't my dog or my race, but I do appreciate some of the pointers you all have offered as to where we can find "AM synthesis" (or something like it) in synths we might already have. I'm going to play around with FM8 and Gladiator (and maybe Spire) to see how much damage I can do! Hope the OP gets something useful from all this, too.

Steve


So to be clear, I'm not use FM8 for my experiments. I'm use FM6 which is a Reaktor ensemble in the user library and I've modified it to do AM globally. You can use it for AM without modification, however, that requires that you construct AM patches explicitly. Each operator can be FM, AM, RM, as well as several other choices.

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/3127/
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Ingonator
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11570 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:33 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

ghettosynth wrote:The essence of my point here though is that, like FM and additive synthesis, AM and RM both are more interesting in the context of being able to modulate the effect of the modulation in complex ways and that, AFAIK, none of the synths mentioned so far have that kind of flexibility.


The examples i had just shown (oscilloscope outputs) used the AM, RM and FM warp modes in Serum and the amount of those could be modulated by an envelope or LFO where the LFO could also act as a complex MSEG.

You could also combine wavetable scanning with AM, RM or FM or modulate both the wave index and the AM/RM/FM amount at the same time. It is also possible do wavetable scanning for both the carrier and modulator to have 3 modulations at the same time.

It is also posible to render a new wavetable using the modulation of the AM/RM/FM amount with a single waveform and then add another Warp mode to the resulting wavetable.

With the Formula editor you could also use formulas similar to both AM and RM to create both single waveforms and a full wavetable (if a second variable z is added which corresponds to the wavetable index). Those formulas do not have to be 100% proper descriptions of AM or RM (like i tried to do with my previous examples here) but could also be variations of them or just inspired by them.


UPDATE:
Just noticed that in KV331 Audio Synthmaster One the "mode" in the Sub oscillators besides "Sub" could be also switched to "Amp Mod", Ring Mod", "Phase Mod" and "Freq Mod". Have not compared all of those there yet. The Volume knob in the Sub-Osc then seems to adjust the amount. No wavetables availabke for tge Sub-Osc but custom single waveforms are usable there.
Similar features also seem to be available in the "big brother" Synthmaster 2.8.
Last edited by Ingonator on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
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ghettosynth
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10170 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:21 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ingonator wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:The essence of my point here though is that, like FM and additive synthesis, AM and RM both are more interesting in the context of being able to modulate the effect of the modulation in complex ways and that, AFAIK, none of the synths mentioned so far have that kind of flexibility.


The examples i had just shown (oscilloscope outputs) used the AM, RM and FM warp modes in Serum and the amount of those could be modulated by an envelope or LFO where the LFO could also act as a complex MSEG.


Perhaps I'm not being clear. Of course they can, that wasn't what I was saying. You are limited in Serem, AFAIK, to the two oscillators. So despite the fact that you can create an arbitrarily complex waveform, you are limited to modulating some aspect of that waveform, e.g., amplitude/frequency. AFAIK, you cannot build a formula that dynamically incorporates the level of an envelope to control the modulation of an operator within the formula. The formula only allows you to define an arbitrarily complex wave that is then used in the oscillator. Once this is done, you have the same restrictions as most other modern synths with respect to the architecture. Serem is, at best, a two operator AM synth and that's assuming that you have audio rate modulation of one oscillator to the other, I don't believe that you do. So, it's really just a simple two oscillator additive/subtractive synth with complex waveforms.

This is not what I'm talking about and, frankly, if I wanted to work that way there are better tools than Serem . I'm quite comfortable working with mathematics and so I would not have any issue working in that way for example in csound, but it's not conducive to blind experimentation in the same way that a DX style synth is. Each operator has their own envelope and this modulates the next operator in the chain. So if one wants to delay the onset of the increased harmonics from modulation, it's easy enough to increase the attack of the associated operator.

Nothing mentioned in this thread, other than FM6 has the flexibility that I'm talking about. You cannot build sounds with chains of operators where the modulation for one operator is taken from a prior operator that is dynamically controlled in any number of ways.

Whether this is valuable or not is a different question, I think that it is, however, my point holds, Serem is not capable of what I'm talking about.
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Ingonator
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11570 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:32 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Admiral Quality Poly-Ana has AM, FM and PM (phase modulation) available in all 3 Oscs and each Osc could be used as a source (besides other sources).

With the 2 modulation mixers you could create complex modulations (including the 3 Oscs as sources) and then use the mixers as a complex mod source in the 3 oscillators (for AM, FM and/or PM).
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Bitwig 2 / Studio One 3
ghettosynth
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10170 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:03 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ingonator wrote:Admiral Quality Poly-Ana has AM, FM and PM (phase modulation) available in all 3 Oscs and each Osc could be used as a source (besides other sources).

With the 2 modulation mixers you could create complex modulations (including the 3 Oscs as sources) and then use the mixers as a complex mod source in the 3 oscillators (for AM, FM and/or PM).


I don't know anything about poly-ana, are those audio rate modulations and can you then modulate the level (non audio rate) with an EG?

I would say that it's unlikely that you can do much in the way of experimentation with most non-modular synths. It depends a lot on what your goals are. If you want to just create some wavetables that make use of AM, then use Serum. If you want to just play with ring mod then probably almost anything will do. If you want to experiment with chains of oscillators modulating each other then I I think you'll find Reaktor and/or various modulars less limiting. Bazille could do some interesting stuff here.
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fmr
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6425 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:22 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

ghettosynth wrote: So to be clear, I'm not use FM8 for my experiments. I'm use FM6 which is a Reaktor ensemble in the user library and I've modified it to do AM globally. You can use it for AM without modification, however, that requires that you construct AM patches explicitly. Each operator can be FM, AM, RM, as well as several other choices.

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/3127/

Your examples done with FM6 are very interesting. This in an old fav of mine, but I never used it this way. I'll have to dig deeper in it. If I understood well, you modified the operator routings inside the ensemble, right? Can you tell exactly which modifications did you do?
Fernando (FMR)
ghettosynth
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10170 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:15 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

fmr wrote:
ghettosynth wrote: So to be clear, I'm not use FM8 for my experiments. I'm use FM6 which is a Reaktor ensemble in the user library and I've modified it to do AM globally. You can use it for AM without modification, however, that requires that you construct AM patches explicitly. Each operator can be FM, AM, RM, as well as several other choices.

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/3127/

Your examples done with FM6 are very interesting. This in an old fav of mine, but I never used it this way. I'll have to dig deeper in it. If I understood well, you modified the operator routings inside the ensemble, right? Can you tell exactly which modifications did you do?


Yes, all that I did was to route the modulation signals from the FM inputs to the AM inputs on the operators globally. It's not hard to do. That said, ATM I'm focused on using the built in AM/RM operators because I'm thinking that more hybrid patches are where it's most interesting, moreover, we can share patches that way for this discussion rather than relying on someone's modified ensemble.

Interestingly, I looked through all of the supplied patches and there are very few that use AM at all. There are a couple that use ring mod.

TBH, I still think that it's only marginally useful, but there might be a few sweet spots.
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Ingonator
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11570 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:54 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

ghettosynth wrote: If you want to just create some wavetables that make use of AM, then use Serum. If you want to just play with ring mod then probably almost anything will do. If you want to experiment with chains of oscillators modulating each other then I I think you'll find Reaktor and/or various modulars less limiting. Bazille could do some interesting stuff here.


In Serum as i alraedy mentioned earlier it is possible to create a wavetabel based on AM but the oscilloscope screenshots i posted were done using AM, RM or RM in realtime and you could set and also modulate the amount.
Besides that as alraedy mentioend too you could combine that with wavetable scanning and also do that wavetable scanning for both the carrier and modulator (Oscs A and B).

Another question is about which waveforms we speak when talking about an AM synth. Only standard waveforms like e.g. Sine, Triangle, Saw, Square and variable Pulse or all kinds of waveforms including complex digital ones. This would make a big difference.

Anyway my opinion is that something like a "pure" AM synth does not make much sense while with synths that also include AM options besides others (including e.g. Serum and others i mentioned alraedy) it might make sense.
Last edited by Ingonator on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Bitwig 2 / Studio One 3
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