One Synth Challenge #104 - Zebralette by u-he (Photonic Wins!)

[J.Ruegg]

I use Bitwig. Am I able to use a Bitwig filter and an ADSR modulator on that filter - I want to do this to get the typical choppy filtered sound on a bass etc.

Hmmm, if the sound doesn't change too much it's allowed (you should be able to recognaize the original sound), but I would suggest agains't it.
Better try to get something closer just with the synth (I'm sure it's possible!)
If you need help with sound design , you can ask here, people will help you .

Oh, and welcome to the OSC

[Taron]

I'm beginning to feel funny about posting so much in this one... (do I always do that?) ...anyway, I was going to respond to that one already, but just forgot about it.

Besides the FX1 & 2 choices, you can also make a wavetable that goes from any hard wave (square, pulse or crazier) to a very pure wave such as sine or triangle (much easier to make) and then run the Mod by MSEG1 or even just ENV1 across the table. You can even control the speed of the filter chop not just with the ENV or curve settings, but also how you spread the cells across the wavetable.
For example:
First cell a sine wave, last wave a pulse wave. Morph from first to last. Make simple MSEG curve or load "ENV Pluck easy" from the defaults. Select first cell, set Mod to full 16.00 and choose MSEG1 as modulator.
Of course, you'd want to use the FXs to get the complete sound, but that's a nice starting point. You can control the speed with MSEG1's curve, of course, but if you want extra control, you can grab for example cell 12 and duplicate it onto wave 8, then morph from 8 to 16 and from 8 to 1. This way the sound will be harder for longer. Or do the same thing inverse from wave 4 instead of 12. Anyway, you can use that opportunity to also modify the wave a bit, like shifting the pulse width. It adds more character then.

Here's a little example I made for you. I also use FX and phase for kind of a nice and full bass chop, if that's the sort of thing you mean?

[] Peter:H []

Besides the FX1 & 2 choices, you can also make a wavetable that goes from any hard wave (square, pulse or crazier) to a very pure wave such as sine or triangle

Yes, pretty much the basics of what wavetable synthesis is, yes. It's there in almost any wavetable synth I know, the saw-to-sine wavetable, which cuts more and more overtones of the saw away...The approach is to add or remove the overtone structure of your stuff between cells. Thunk you can find which overtones are present in square, saw, triangle easily by asking google or wikipedia.
Funny and less common approach: You can even try to do some gate-ing with it. Fill some cells, leave others blank (flat line) and save without interpolation if you use wav2zebra...Combine with a Env that scans thru the wavetable in a linear fashion...or use rising saw lfo. At least that works for tone2 icarus.
My two cents for snare synthesis: A snare has thump, body and tail...and if you look into samples of your snares, I think you can get some insight of what content is required for which part and just draw some "close looking stuff" into the cells...

[toonertik]

RE: Collaborations >>>Submissions
Soundcloud File name format: Artist - Track Title where artist name is the same as KVR nick. For collaborations, just put both names as artist name, for example Artist1 + Artist2 - Track Title. If the collaborator is not a KVR member, put the KVR member's name first, like this KVR Name + Collaborator name - Track Title. Challenge to run from 1st to last every month (clock: KVR time)

https://sites.google.com/site/kvrosc/rules

[doctorbob]

@Mr. T. et al ... of course, modelling a piano is fiendish - the sound from previous notes will have an effect with some sympathetic vibrations on subsequent notes played - more so for overstrung pianos. Also, there's the number of strings used across the range too - 1,2 or 3 - just watch a piano tuner in progress and see how he places wedges between strings so he can tune a single string, and then tune the other ones to give the right "sound" for that note with all strings vibrating. (He also plays the newlay tuned note against others to make sure the sypathetic vibrations give the right sounds too.[Interesting fact - many piano tuners in the last 1800's were trained blind folk!].

In past OSC's I have always used 3 or more instances and directed the notes to the appropriate areas of the "keyboard" range for each instance - and then of course, each instance is designed to give a better representation of the sound across the whole range.

Inevitably, with a single instance, some parts of the range will sound better than others - clever use of the wavetable (as above) will mitigate this to some extent.

I have a piano-esque sound in my latest piece, but I am NOT trying to fully emulate a real piano sound, just the feel of one, with the "player" using the "keyboard" to put over a performance and "feel" of the music.

https://soundcloud.com/doctorbob/solitudes-piano

[Taron]

Oh, sh...Bob, I don't know, if I should show you mine. (Nope, that's not what she said!)
Ah...it's, hm...I really want to, though. Danged. But then, maybe you might not like me then anymore, I don't know. But I can tell you this much. No matter how "advanced" my take on a piano may appear, I'm still unhappy with it and try to tweak certain notes. It's soooo so fragile, because it's trying to just get the main character for a range that is at least one half tone too many. If I had 24 cells, it might actually get pretty solid for a simple piano.

AH heck, I'll prepare a tiny little track for you in a moment. But then there's the other thing, where my ears get so tired or biased, my brain thinks it hears a piano. Then a few hours later or just a few moments and I think it's so terrible. Very weird. I will show it to you. I sure hope you won't hate me then, though, really.

[doctorbob]

Hey T., no problem - for me the sound I have fits into the grand scheme of things around the other elements of the track. If it was too much like a "real" piano then it would be really really out of place. Sure a sharper sound on the attack might be nicer and then better dampening of the harmonics as the notes decay (different in the various ranges as well!), migt also be nice. I will still work on my sound - no point using other peoples work too much - then it's like using just presets and not putting in the work.

Hence my word - piano-esque! Like a piano, but not really - sort of in the same way a Rhodes is an electric piano - but it's NOT a piano!

Hehe! I've shown you mine - so far ...

dB

[Taron]

Here's a quick diddy:
https://soundcloud.com/taronium/zebrale ... no/s-Q7XYo

It's just a single instance of Zebralette without any effects, except a 40% OTT just to bring it up a little.

[doctorbob]

Just amazing ... and will you be using it in a EPIC track??? So looking forward to this ... maybe we should all give up now - hehe - how much time have you spent on this? I wonder how good you could get a Zebra piano to be?

Bedtime now for me ...

Again - fabulous!

dB

[Taron]

Wheee, thank you, Bob!
Ahm, hard to tell, because I keep getting back at it. I made about 5 different kinds of pianos before I ended up with this one as my flagship. It still needs refinement and it's ungrateful with Zebralette, because of the limitations. I need key follow for envelope speeds, more then 2 envelopes, I think, and the ChopLift I'm using is really a bit eeeky...very rough compromise. But the keyfollow on env speeds would be really important to get those nice roaring bass notes and the tinny tingy highs.
But, in terms of time, I'd go ahead and say "DAYS" (just short of "weeks") hahaha!
Each waveform is a GeoMorph, handcrafted with minute adjustments to lean a sound slightly to or away from a ringing or twang and I'm still not through.

My track doesn't even quite feature this piano, YET. But it has a really beautiful e-guitar already and it sure wants to get quite epic! Some stuff happens with Zebralette that is rather amazing and beautiful, really. But there's always this little plastic demon riding along. Anyway... I'm just glad you like the piano!

[TrojakEW]

Hey Taron what version of preset is that. Just curious because this one sounds more like guitar one . Nice improvisation btw. I wish I can do that too but my bashing to keyborad always sounds like bashing .

Is there a way to modulate attack on env with velocity? I already find on google it is possible on zebra but looks like not possible with zebralette. The more I read a view about zebra I'm more impressed with this synth.

[Taron]

Oh, so, you know some of my pianos already?
I dare you to make a better piano over 4 octaves with Zebralette and/or any single instance of a free synth out there! But you are, of course, very right. Listen to it long enough, and you'll believe the piano, but any first listen from any other reference and it shows just how bad it still is.
I did some more changes after this recording, one deals with the envelopes and another with the internal EQ. They help, but the fundamental challenge won't go away.

With Zebra2 you can virtually do anything, really. I'd be mortified, if one couldn't adjust envelopes with any modulation. I have it, but haven't really made a sound with it, yet.

Anyway, thank you for your wonderful encouragement, Trojak. Now, get back to work you lazy bum!

[Daru925]

Is the free xfer dimension expander ok to use?

[TrojakEW]

I dare you to make a better piano over 4 octaves with Zebralette

Just you wait!

Question about attack based on vel was for tuning up my piano. Well even if there is no way to make good single instance piano there is still way to layer few instances and limit them to get "correct" sound. But I will not doing this in may track and I dont even use eq on it, just reverb . But there is no way to layer instance based on velocity. I want to make longer attacks for less intensive play and 0 attack for "climax" part.

For now I have two instance, one with longer attack and 2nd with almost 0 but still static setting is audible.

I'm worried about my track composition more then my piano sound. Well I usually hide my incompetence regarding music behind percussion rumble . Drums bashing can sound good even without any knowledge.

[Taron]

Can't hide forever!

But, yeah, wished Zebralette would allow modulation of envelope times for this reason and the behavior for key ranges. The long decay makes those higher notes really sound like guitar.

I can't wait to hear your piano, though, I'm not too thrilled about a layered solution, actually. That's not the same challenge!