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quantum7
KVRian
 
863 posts since 30 Dec, 2006, from the hills above beautiful Boise, Idaho

Postby quantum7; Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:33 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

All you fools out there wasting your money on 64-bit obviously can't see the future. I'll bet my left nipple that 256-bit will be all the rave by the early 2030's, so while all of you are wasting your hard-earned money on 64-bit ancient technology now, I'll be saving all my money for the 256-bit revolution. :tu:
"It is better to compose than decompose."

Sean Christopher Dockery
www.SeanDockery.com www.SeanChristopher.net
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
11027 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:24 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Saukar30 wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:
Saukar30 wrote:I just think there is more of a chance immediately to get awareness for a product to be available in as many formats as possible for the developer to handle.


So again, let's get to some details. Which small developer, who's only real cost is to "add a build configuration" and maybe update his website, e.g., the aforementioned dev who asked a similar question, doesn't provide 32 bit installs? That particular dev decided to keep providing them for the foreseeable future. He didn't actually provide installs and so for him, the cost was low.

Now, let's consider NI, do you really think that they need awareness of their Christmas giveaway? Clearly to NI, a whole bunch of needless support helping noobs figure out 32 bit vs 64 bit isn't going to generate a lot of revenue on a free product.

Second, I think that you're probably overrating the "awareness" generated by providing a format. I'm willing to bet that a KVR ad is far more effective in generating "awareness." For a second format to provide awareness that you aren't going to get otherwise then you are, for all intents and purposes, relying on the foosnarks of the world to tell people about such and such a plugin. My guess is that those kinds of word or mouth effects are secondary at best.

Which, brings me to my third point. What do you think that not providing 32 bit is going to do?

Answer, it's going to piss off a bunch of vocal non-customers who are going to complain in public that they can't buy your plugin. My guess is that NOT supporting 32 bit generates more awareness than word of mouth secondary effects from 32 bit only customers.

Do you think that most customers listen to people who gripe about 32 bit not being supported? I can tell you I don't. I just click on the link to see where I can buy the 64 bit only plugin that sounds cool. How much impact do you think that those vocal complaints had on people who use 64 bit with NI's Phasis?


But again you may have people like NI who JUST came out with a only 64 bit version plug... but you have other developers... like I mentioned... U-he, who also come out with new 32 & 64 bit versions as well. And they argubably have the highest ratest synths in the entire VST market. So obviously someone is listening.


My retort was to counter your notion that having a 32 bit plugin creates awareness. You haven't supported that idea at all. It's just wishful thinking.

But I can give you plenty of examples of developers who choose to still support both formats. For them... it is probably financially feasible to do. For others, its not.


That's neither here nor there. Of course that's true, my point was simply that you have not supported your assertion that there is value to devs to create 32 bit when they have chosen not to. That is the essence of the conversation here, not whether or not some do and some don't, of course that's true, but this thread wouldn't even exist without the devs who have chosen to abandon 32 bit.

So, that is where your argument must start. Why should devs who have released plugins in 64 bit only support 32 bit? You tried to argue that it was awareness, but you haven't supported that claim. Any answer that passes muster must consider why they have dropped 32 bit in the first place.

Again, if you want to understand this, go find some devs who have dropped 32 bit support and ask them.
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overhishead
KVRist
 
284 posts since 21 Jan, 2007

Postby overhishead; Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:31 am Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

64 bit is not backward compatible. that's bad.
Saukar30
KVRian
 
989 posts since 2 Mar, 2005

Postby Saukar30; Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:47 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Lol ok, ok u win.

No need to carry on a argument of opinion
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
11027 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:42 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Saukar30 wrote:Lol ok, ok u win.

No need to carry on a argument of opinion



You know, I think that this is some sort of cultural thing. To me, discussion is debate and it's ok to disagree with the points that others make and call on them to think about them, defend them, and even counter my own points. It's not an "argument", it's just a discussion. There is nothing more boring to me than a discussion where everyone agrees on something.

I thought that this thread was trying to understand the phenomenon of 32 bit support drying up? If so, it warrants points and counterpoints, agreement and disagreement. I'm not mad, I was enjoying our conversation. I don't want to "win", I want to gather more insight, more thoughts. Sometimes you just have to say "ok, fair point, I don't have a counter for that," or, "I didn't think of it that way."

I don't think that all players have the same motivations. For some vendors, in fact, I think that other people dropping out of providing 32 bit support provides some opportunity. You can see that in this thread where angry 32forever folks think favorably of vendors who continue to support the format. Probably to smaller vendors the few 32 bit holdouts represent a more sizable portion of their customer base? It could also be the case that their chosen methods don't yield the same support costs as other vendors?
Stefken
KVRist
 
496 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Postby Stefken; Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:47 am Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

ghettosynth wrote: You can see that in this thread where angry 32forever folks think favorably of vendors who continue to support the format.

For me the whole question is about emotions and wrong expectations or lack of experience in IT.

At my workplace, the last 3 years, we've had huge migrations every year. Some for technical updates, other because the company was completely restructured. We're talking months of works here, while always taking care that the production systems are always up and running during work hours. We make (cynical) jokes about it. We don't get mad, because there is no point.

IT is not the same as a hardware synth. You have to prepared for this, the moment you invest in an IT system. I designed my computer from the start as a 64 bit system with plenty of resources, to have a stable system for some years to come.
dougb256
KVRist
 
54 posts since 5 Jun, 2015

Postby dougb256; Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:03 am Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

I cannot imagine having 1600 songs in “32-bit format”. What does that even mean? 1600 songs with synth parts? WTF???

I’m on an iMac in the studio , and I used 32 Bridge for a while while making the transition to Logic Pro X. But I haven’t used a 32-bit plug for at least a year, probably two. I have an old 13” MacBook that has 32-bit only VSTis, but it too is going to get updated to 64-bit.

I also used to have an Atari 1040ST 30+ years ago, but I understood then (as I do now) that computers and software gets outdated quickly. That’s why I never buy the most expensive bleeding-edge gear; wait a year and buy it at a huge discount. Use it for 5+ years, then it’ll be time for another update. It’s been like that for decades.
Running Logic Pro 10.4 under Sierra on a late 2012 27" iMac wth 24 GB RAM :tu:
Stefken
KVRist
 
496 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Postby Stefken; Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:07 am Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

dougb256 wrote:It’s been like that for decades.


Pretty much... Actually in the past, I had to change computers like every 3 years. Now it's more like 5 years. So it was worse in the past. :clown:
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
 
6994 posts since 13 Jun, 2001, from Somewhere else, on principle

Postby BONES; Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:53 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

I buy a new one every year because it actually works out cheaper in the long run. A one year old laptop is still worth decent money on eBay but if you hang onto it for even two years, it will be worth almost nothing. e.g. I paid $1500 for my last Dell XPS 13 and sold it after 12 months for $1100. That means that it cost me just over $1 a day for the time I had it. OTOH, the last one I held onto for a few years, I ended up giving to a relative, because it wasn't worth enough to be bothered selling it, which means it ended up costing me nearly three times as much per day for the time I had it.
Stefken wrote:For me the whole question is about emotions and wrong expectations or lack of experience in IT.

If it was just about emotion, then it would simply be wrong, but there are clear and reasonable issues here that you obviously find it easy to ignore. Expectations, for example, for me have been set over 25 years of using Windows computers, where I have never had to stop using anything because it was no longer supported. Probably the best current example is that plenty of vendors continue to bring out new model computers with USB Type A ports, even though Type C has been around for several years now. OEMs get that people have existing equipment that they want to keep using and that they don't want to have to jump through hoops to make it work. They are easing their customers into the new standard by continuing to support the old one as well as providing the new port (my last two laptops have had both).
We don't get mad, because there is no point.

Maybe that's why it keeps happening?
IT is not the same as a hardware synth. You have to prepared for this, the moment you invest in an IT system. I designed my computer from the start as a 64 bit system with plenty of resources, to have a stable system for some years to come.

And that system will happily run all your 32 bit applications for all that time. It's a perfect illustration of the opposite case, not yours.
dougb256 wrote:I understood then (as I do now) that computers and software gets outdated quickly.

Two points here. First is that you are used to it because Apple have conditioned you to it. They are the worst when it comes to dropping support for older things and their user base just bends over and takes it. I see it at work all the time. But over here on the sane side of the fence, we have very different expectations. That's why I can buy a brand new laptop every year, with all the latest features, and still know that the USB MIDI I/O device I bought in 1999 will keep working like it always has (flawlessly).
Second, clearly not everything gets outdated quickly, or old analogue synths wouldn't be worth anything. What's true of hardware synths is equally true of softsynths - just because there are 64 bit softsynths doesn't mean that 32 bit softsynths are all instantly invalid. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you don't even know what you are getting from your 64 bit plugins that you weren't from your old 32 bit ones, do you?
That’s why I never buy the most expensive bleeding-edge gear; wait a year and buy it at a huge discount. Use it for 5+ years, then it’ll be time for another update. It’s been like that for decades.

Again, that's Mac thinking. PC users know they don't have to wait a year, they can just ask for a discount and get one. Gotta love competition (unless you are Apple, of course).
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta
AnX
KVRAF
 
2805 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Postby AnX; Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:29 am Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

BONES wrote:. That's why I can buy a brand new laptop every year, with all the latest features


What new features come out every year that requires you to buy a new laptop?
Must be a pain having to do an install every year.
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Tj Shredder
KVRian
 
783 posts since 6 Jan, 2017, from Outer Space

Postby Tj Shredder; Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:45 am Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

The title says it, fight, fight, fight. Wow Mac vs. PC...;-)
Lets go for it...
First of all, I do respect anybodies decision, each time there is an investment for a platform to do, I consider myself doing a switch. In most cases the personal experience will be the main argument to stay with what you know already....

BONES wrote:I buy a new one every year because it actually works out cheaper in the long run. A one year old laptop is still worth decent money on eBay but if you hang onto it for even two years, it will be worth almost nothing.


Buying a new one every year is environmentally a disaster! It is not as cheap as you think it is. A mac can be sold for about half the price after 3 years. You can rely on it usually to run more than 6 years. So my advice, if you need cutting edge technology by a new one sell it after 3 years and buy the next model. Average a 6th of the price for a new one per year. You lost more than a 6th in your example, but in exchange you are surfing closer at the front of technology, if you need it. Apple has no low cost models at all. I regularly compare macs to pcs and usually, if you want the same quality, you pay more or less the same. So your 1500$ laptop, is probably comparable to a 1500$ Mac laptop, but you can customize it easier and have more options...

BONES wrote:Expectations, for example, for me have been set over 25 years of using Windows computers, where I have never had to stop using anything because it was no longer supported.


The same is true for me after using Apple computers for over 30 years
I recently connected an old adb keyboard and adb Kensington Turbo Mouse to my Mac Pro...
There was a short moment when Apple ditched firewire, but they also delivered the adapter finally to get all back...

BONES wrote:Second, clearly not everything gets outdated quickly, or old analogue synths wouldn't be worth anything. What's true of hardware synths is equally true of softsynths - just because there are 64 bit softsynths doesn't mean that 32 bit softsynths are all instantly invalid. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you don't even know what you are getting from your 64 bit plugins that you weren't from your old 32 bit ones, do you?


Oh I run happily old Windows 32-bit plug-ins on my Mac. Its magic...
No doubt technology is advancing, you get from the new stuff things you could not get from an outdated 32-bit version. There is not much of the new stuff which is 64-bit only.
If you need to run everything in a single tool, then you can't avoid Bitwig, the only one which does it on any platform... (not really, they don't run AU or AAX...)
The main reason why modern host are and have to be 64-bit is the ability to access a sound after about 6 minutes with sample accuracy. That is simply impossible in 32-bit...
They can usually only host 64-bit plug-ins. Bitwig is the only exeption I know of...

BONES wrote:
That’s why I never buy the most expensive bleeding-edge gear; wait a year and buy it at a huge discount. Use it for 5+ years, then it’ll be time for another update. It’s been like that for decades.

Again, that's Mac thinking. PC users know they don't have to wait a year, they can just ask for a discount and get one. Gotta love competition (unless you are Apple, of course).

No, thats "buy used" thinking. You don't get discounts on new gear, they only make you think you get. If you buy a decent 3 year old PC, you get pretty fast hardware and pay much less than for a 3 year old Mac. That would really be an argument to go the PC road...;-) But if your whole experience is based on what you know already, its unlikely that you do it.
As soon Cycling74 is porting Max to Linux, I will switch to Linux and get cheap hardware...
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
 
6994 posts since 13 Jun, 2001, from Somewhere else, on principle

Postby BONES; Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:46 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Tj Shredder wrote:Buying a new one every year is environmentally a disaster!

No, it's not. Quite the opposite as I on-sell the old one, instead of it sitting around for a few years after I've replaced it, until I eventually throw it away.
It is not as cheap as you think it is. A mac can be sold for about half the price after 3 years. You can rely on it usually to run more than 6 years.

That's not anything unique to Macs. My bandmate's family is still using the Dell M4400 I bought in 2008. The battery is toast but everything else still runs well enough for his kids to use as their internet access.
So my advice, if you need cutting edge technology by a new one sell it after 3 years and buy the next model.

But I don't need cutting edge technology for music. In fact, for the first time, last year I bought a consumer grade machine instead of a pro-spec and I still can't manage to use more than about 20% of the RAM and the CPU never even spikes above 50%, even on our most demanding songs. In fact, everything runs really well on the 2013 model Surface Pro I bought for around US$200 a few months ago and it's just a Core i5.

The laptop is more for work than for music and work is far more demanding. It's just that I don't do a lot of freelance work any more, so it's less of a priority than it's been. If I don't earn any money from it this year, I probably won't get a new one again, but since 2010 I've had one per year.
Average a 6th of the price for a new one per year.

Six years is way too long to hold onto a machine. A six year old laptop won't have any Type C ports, will be heavy, won't have a touchscreen (invaluable on stage), will have lousy battery life and a comparatively poor screen. Last year, for example, was the first time I felt I had the battery life to reliably perform on stage without plugging the laptop in. It was very liberating because absolutely everything else gets it's power from the laptop, so not having to worry about power on stage was worth whatever it cost.

Ultimately, financial considerations drive the behaviour but there are plenty of other benefits.
Apple has no low cost models at all. I regularly compare macs to pcs and usually, if you want the same quality, you pay more or less the same.

Only if you pay retail. My Au$1500 laptop was in fact was Au$900 cheaper than the retail price. It was a current model XPS 13 with Core i7, Iris Pro graphics, 8Gb RAM and a 256Gb high-speed SSD. Try speccing a MB Pro to match and see what it costs.
BONES wrote:Expectations, for example, for me have been set over 25 years of using Windows computers, where I have never had to stop using anything because it was no longer supported.

The same is true for me after using Apple computers for over 30 years

Really? So you never used the Animation codec in Quicktime? I find that hard to believe.
I recently connected an old adb keyboard and adb Kensington Turbo Mouse to my Mac Pro...
There was a short moment when Apple ditched firewire, but they also delivered the adapter finally to get all back...

And how much did they fleece you for the adapter? I haven't had to spend money to keep any of my stuff current.
Oh I run happily old Windows 32-bit plug-ins on my Mac. Its magic...
No doubt technology is advancing, you get from the new stuff things you could not get from an outdated 32-bit version.

Like what? Name one thing.
The main reason why modern host are and have to be 64-bit is the ability to access a sound after about 6 minutes with sample accuracy. That is simply impossible in 32-bit...

Are you saying that there are playback problems with every CD ever made? Doesn't seem likely, does it?
No, thats "buy used" thinking. You don't get discounts on new gear, they only make you think you get.

Let me relate an experience. At the end of 2011, my brother and I went on holiday to the US. A few weeks before we left, Asus released their first Zenbook and I was looking at one in a shop. It was marked at Au$1594, apparently down from a retail price of Au$1699. The same machine was about Au$1200 in the US, plus taxes, so I was thinking I might pick one up over there. When I said this to the sales clerk, he pulled out his little machine and said he could match that price if I took it with me and got my taxes back at the airport. So I did that and it ended up being $1258. So I bought a brand new laptop, a model that had only been available for two weeks, for around 30% less than the retail price. The similarly specced MB Air at the time was Au$1899, so it was also more than one-third cheaper than that and had the advantage of running all the software I use, none of which has Mac versions.
As soon Cycling74 is porting Max to Linux, I will switch to Linux and get cheap hardware...

Have you ever used Linux? It's not very good for most things and unless you stick to the one or two most popular peripherals, you might have a hard time finding drivers for all your outboard gear. Linux is still very DIY beyond the basics.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
 
6994 posts since 13 Jun, 2001, from Somewhere else, on principle

Postby BONES; Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:03 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

AnX wrote:What new features come out every year that requires you to buy a new laptop?
Must be a pain having to do an install every year.

I don't buy one every year because of the features, it's just a consequence of the process. I buy a new one every year because it's the cheapest way to go in the longer term. A one year old laptop is easy to sell for a good price, a three year old laptop is basically worthless.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta
AnX
KVRAF
 
2805 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Postby AnX; Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:57 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

BONES wrote:
AnX wrote:What new features come out every year that requires you to buy a new laptop?
Must be a pain having to do an install every year.

I don't buy one every year because of the features, it's just a consequence of the process. I buy a new one every year because it's the cheapest way to go in the longer term. A one year old laptop is easy to sell for a good price, a three year old laptop is basically worthless.



Why would you sell if after 3 years? My PC is 6 years old, before that 7 years old, before that 4. I dont need to update my current PC yet, it still works well. I buy a new one when i need to.

Never had a laptop ( :o ) buy im sure the specs are not so bad you need to update every 3 years. Resale price should not be a factor when buying electronic goods.
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
 
6994 posts since 13 Jun, 2001, from Somewhere else, on principle

Postby BONES; Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:56 pm Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Because I use my PC to earn at least part of my living and for the work I do, I need the fastest, most powerful thing I can afford, hence the several Dell "M" series Precision mobile workstations I've had. You just need to see how far laptop graphics have come in the last three years to understand how completely out of date a three year old laptop is. And an old laptop doesn't exactly impress clients when you turn up to meetings.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta
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