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ENV1
KVRAF
 
2233 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:10 pm Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Just check out this WAV, no verbal explanation needed.

First 2 notes are at 44100, last 2 notes are at 192000

Linkage


Its the oddest effect, never heard anything like it.

The only thing thats clear is that its related to the resonance.

Is this filter possessed by frogs or why would it do this?


PS: Im not kidding here, thats the actual raw-output of the synth, i.e. no FX or anything.
ENV1
KVRAF
 
2233 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:18 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

By the way, the sweep is internal modulation, via MSEG.

So its not 'controller stepping' or anything like that.
User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16290 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:36 am Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

The filter (or the whole synth) doesn't seem to be coded for all sample rates, so you get that artifacting.
ENV1
KVRAF
 
2233 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:18 am Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Nope, that cant be it because its there at any SR.

(Thats why i put 2 examples in the WAV, to show that its there from the lowest to the highest SR.)

I think its either a bug, or exceptionally bad filter design, or something that escapes me.


BTW the synth is Rapture, v1.22

Affected are all filters except

- Comb
- The resonance-less models (LP 1, HP 1, etc.)
- The four 'S' variants at the bottom of the dropdown (LPS 2, HPS 2, etc.)

I stumbled upon the issue while making an oldschool CS-80 Brass sound which sounded more or less perfect except for some inexplicable 'junk' in the attack and decay. This junk really drove me nuts because it was very prominent and ruined an otherwise great sounding synthbrass. So i investigated, and thats how i found the issue.

If i were to hazard a guess, my money would be on bug, introduced by whoever managed the code at Cakewalk, because i dont think Rene would have made such a blunder when he originally designed the filters. (No such problem with the filters in z3ta+ so he definitely knew how to do it right.)



Still wondering WHY a filter would do that, i.e. what the technical explanation is.

I never heard anything like it so im curious as to whats happening here.

What i do know with certainty is that its related to the resonance because without it this odd 'croaking' doesnt occur.
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16290 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:31 am Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

That's the old version of Rapture, yeah? At that point, Rene was still at Cakewalk. Might be worth checking v1.0 if you can somehow find it and get it running. If it's the same, then it's Rene's cockup :D


(If you can post the patch, I'll check if the same thing happens in Rapture Pro.)


From my recollection, regular filters (not the "S" modes, which are state-variable) MIGHT have compensation for loss of bass freqs when resonance is dialed in, so it can get VERY loud and screechy. What you might be hearing here is the resonance clipping the fk out of the signal, stepping (literally) through the harmonics.
ENV1
KVRAF
 
2233 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:59 am Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Yeah, the old 'regular' Rapture. (1.22, the latest and probably last version.)

As to reproducing, just take any Saw or Square

(I used 'saw 8080' because it was a CS-80 Brass but it doesnt matter.)

Cutoff to 95Hz

Reso 20dB (knob center position)

Then sweep.

And please dont tell me its not happening with the new version because then i go mad.
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16290 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:50 am Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Yeah, it is happening here too, in Rapture Pro. Just seems to be a quirk of those filters (they're not the same as in z3ta).
ENV1
KVRAF
 
2233 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:04 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Thanks for checking.

Of course it sucks that the new version has the problem too, but at least i wont be tempted to hunt down a copy now.


Its really too bad. I always seem to find odd shit in synths that went unnoticed for years. (Including by myself in this case.) This basically leaves only one set of 12dB filters to work with because now that im aware of the flaw i know i wont touch the non-S variants anymore. And with Cakewalk off the stage we need not hope for a fix either.

I really wish Rene could re-takeover Rapture and z3ta+ because he was really good at what he was doing. Im sure he could sort this thing out in a jiffy, but unfortunately thats even more unlikely to happen.
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16290 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:28 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Sorting it out would kinda kill backwards compatibility... I mean, there ARE hundreds of Rapture patches available out there.


(Besides, CS-80 did use a state-variable 12 dB filter, soooo, for what you intended to do, you're in the clear with Rapture.)
ENV1
KVRAF
 
2233 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:52 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Yeah, backward compatibility is always important. But in this case, if all that the change would do is getting rid of the junk, i dont think anybody would complain. (Cant imagine anyone actually wanting it to be there, considering how crap it sounds.)


And yes, obviously theres still tons of stuff that can be made with just the 12dBs. And it seems that older stuff can be (more or less) converted. I just checked some of my older presets and even the stuff that was using the 4-poles or 6-poles didnt seem to suffer all too much if i replaced them with the S-variant and adapted Cutoff, Resonance, EG Intensity, etcetera to compensate for the shallower slope. Its also a good thing that each of the 6 Elements has its own 3-band EQ so you can do additional tweaking to get (more or less) back to the original sound. It will be a lot of work to go through all of the stuff i made over the years but to me it seems like its gonna be worth it. Better this than having that junk in there, only knowing that its there bothers me no end.
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EvilDragon
KVRAF
 
16290 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:56 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Also, dont forget that the DSP structure can also be changed, you can have two filters in a row to have a 24 dB/oct SVF, if need be. But then you need to repeat all the modulation for it :)
ENV1
KVRAF
 
2233 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:09 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

EvilDragon wrote:Also, dont forget that the DSP structure can also be changed, you can have two filters in a row to have a 24 dB/oct SVF, if need be. But then you need to repeat all the modulation for it :)

Good thinking, i didnt even try that yet.

This might be just what the doctor ordered.
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Grizzellda
KVRist
 
346 posts since 21 Feb, 2015

Postby Grizzellda; Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:25 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

ENV1 wrote:I really wish Rene could re-takeover Rapture and z3ta+ because he was really good at what he was doing. Im sure he could sort this thing out in a jiffy, but unfortunately thats even more unlikely to happen.


Well, I was sure hoping for a z3ta version 3...this synth, in my view, is just lovely, and surely worth continuing on...

I am beginning to think of some of these software synths as real instruments, like a guitar, say. Except because they are virtual data structures it is not as easy to see them as say, you would if you were looking at a Telecaster or some Ibanez...

But because they are virtual data structures it means they need a certain type of maintenance, to keep up with current standards. And if such an instrument is good enough, like old z3ta, I think it should surely be picked up by someone and be brought to current standards.

Like maintaining a nice guitar, or keeping a piano tuned up and in shape.

Does that make any sense to you guys? :hihi:
ENV1
KVRAF
 
2233 posts since 31 Aug, 2011

Postby ENV1; Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:37 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

Absolutely.

I have both Rapture and z3ta+ and i love them both.

The thought that they might just fade into obscurity now is kinda sad.
Examigan
KVRAF
 
4438 posts since 15 Sep, 2005, from East Coast of the USA

Postby Examigan; Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:02 pm Re: Oddest Filter Behavior EVER

ENV1 wrote:Just check out this WAV, no verbal explanation needed.

First 2 notes are at 44100, last 2 notes are at 192000

Linkage


Its the oddest effect, never heard anything like it.

The only thing thats clear is that its related to the resonance.

Is this filter possessed by frogs or why would it do this?


PS: Im not kidding here, thats the actual raw-output of the synth, i.e. no FX or anything.


I couldn't get the links to work that you posted. I never render out my audio that high, if that's what you meant (192,000), so maybe there are others that behave the same way but I haven't discovered them.
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