Best complete bundle for orchestral composing

[jancivil]

Orchestration is a strength of mine, and being a KVRAF (or riff-raff) rather than VI Control somehow has not ruined that.

I would advise the OP or any reader to do your own homework (I mean research what instruments do in the physical world, compare with product infos etc) and feel free to believe all of us here are simply full of it.

As to points I brought in: I did not say Play wasn't a good PLAYER, I said the interface is not conducive to serious orchestral work. In My Opinion, which every point here is, opinion, regardless of one's idea of oneself as authoritative.

YMMV! And I depicted the interface I believe puts PLAY in the dust. Did they totally revamp it? I doubt it.

When I started with this, Vienna Instrument was, well, better than PLAY 4 no doubt but it wasn't like it is now.
I think the information is good to have; I wish I had more 15 yrs ago, I would have made other choices than I did.
I was as noob as it can even get at the time.

Garritan Harps for the ARIA engine are SUPERB. I'd be more careful than to diss a vendor so broadly.
If one expects pro usage from an entry-level product [GPO], one will need better information than what would lead you to that.

Entry level for me, GPO original and EWQL SO Silver, and I knew VSL was something else. Which I didn't think I had the money for. As it is, that was a little bit false economy given what I know now.

[wagtunes]

Orchestration is a strength of mine, and being a KVRAF (or riff-raff) rather than VI Control somehow has not ruined that.

I would advise the OP or any reader to do your own homework (I mean research what instruments do in the physical world, compare with product infos etc) and feel free to believe all of us here are simply full of it.

As to points I brought in: I did not say Play wasn't a good PLAYER, I said the interface is not conducive to serious orchestral work. In My Opinion, which every point here is, opinion, regardless of one's idea of oneself as authoritative.

YMMV! And I depicted the interface I believe puts PLAY in the dust. Did they totally revamp it? I doubt it.

When I started with this, Vienna Instrument was, well, better than PLAY 4 no doubt but it wasn't like it is now.
I think the information is good to have; I wish I had more 15 yrs ago, I would have made other choices than I did.
I was as noob as it can even get at the time.

Garritan Harps for the ARIA engine are SUPERB. I'd be more careful than to diss a vendor so broadly.
If one expects pro usage from an entry-level product [GPO], one will need better information than what would lead you to that.

Entry level for me, GPO original and EWQL SO Silver, and I knew VSL was something else. Which I didn't think I had the money for. As it is, that was a little bit false economy given what I know now.

You say orchestration is a strength of yours, which I believe having heard your stuff.

So let me ask you a question. What Vienna products do you own and do you feel that they cover everything you could possibly want to do with traditional orchestra scores?

After you answer my question, I'm going to go look up what it would cost me TODAY to duplicate your setup.

[Armagibbon]

Hahaha man aint nobody in their right head is gonna defend ewql play. Its just bad and now they want money for it. Cant even make up these f*ckin jokes man ahahahah

The hollywood libs are alright but imo theyd be better in any other scriptable sample player on the market. Seriously play is the only reason I went out to pick up other strings and brass cus sometimes I just dont feel it... f*ck that sad mess...

[jancivil]

So let me ask you a question. What Vienna products do you own and do you feel that they cover everything you could possibly want to do with traditional orchestra scores?

After you answer my question, I'm going to go look up what it would cost me TODAY to duplicate your setup.

Fine, I'll play, I'm waiting for it to cool off some to do anything.

I've had my dongle and my whole bag stolen 3x in 2017 so I own 50% (replacement license) of a lot of things I'd have to ask someone there about which would escape me atm.

I will however list what I think totally covers my ass -
Piccolo Flute, full. No way anybody can touch this.
Bass Flute, full. Same deal. 1) because the sound, 2) because the fullness of the artics.
Alto Flute, full... well here there is Chris Hein flutes and I would ideally have both. Then, done.
Flugelhorn, for which there is no Standard v Full distinction. VERY complete. (For jazz, this and WarpIV Music 'Screaming Trumpet' which has piccolo trumpet and all the Harmon and straight mute etc)
Bb Trumpet, done.
Cymbals and Gongs. Totally.
Ok, here I'm into specifying what I once had from the full VSL Percussion, which has changed a little bit since.
With that, done but I had the impression at the time there are things in
SE Percussion not in the big bundle (the big one cost me ~$900, was the edu discount). Certain cymbal swells were easier, to my recollection.
Now, for entry level this SE one at its price point just rocks. I bought it this month again.
This is pertinent I think as it pretty well addresses 'traditional', pre-20th c orchestration.
For me it is not nearly enough, but I never did a 'classical' job in my life, my perspective skews away from that in a non-trivial way.

The full percussion includes everything I have installed here in Exotic Percussion, which much of is becoming standard in 20th c. writing. It has everything one needs for Varèse Ionisation on purpose.
Is upright bass traditional? I have no need for another.
XXL TamTam, well how traditional is Stockhausen Mikrophonie?
No, the basic patch is a bigger Tam than the biggest in the Cymbals and Gongs.

and what doesn't: Epic Orchestra free with VE Pro. It resembles the KFL VSL Demo stuff, LITE.

[wagtunes]

So let me ask you a question. What Vienna products do you own and do you feel that they cover everything you could possibly want to do with traditional orchestra scores?

After you answer my question, I'm going to go look up what it would cost me TODAY to duplicate your setup.

Fine, I'll play, I'm waiting for it to cool off some to do anything.

I've had my dongle and my whole bag stolen 3x in 2017 so I own 50% (replacement license) of a lot of things I'd have to ask someone there about which would escape me atm.

I will however list what I think totally covers my ass -
Piccolo Flute, full. No way anybody can touch this.
Bass Flute, full. Same deal. 1) because the sound, 2) because the fullness of the artics.
Alto Flute, full... well here there is Chris Hein flutes and I would ideally have both. Then, done.
Flugelhorn, for which there is no Standard v Full distinction. VERY complete. (For jazz, this and WarpIV Music 'Screaming Trumpet' which has piccolo trumpet and all the Harmon and straight mute etc)
Bb Trumpet, done.
Cymbals and Gongs. Totally.
Ok, here I'm into specifying what I once had from the full VSL Percussion, which has changed a little bit since.
With that, done but I had the impression at the time there are things in
SE Percussion not in the big bundle (the big one cost me ~$900, was the edu discount). Certain cymbal swells were easier, to my recollection.
Now, for entry level this SE one at its price point just rocks. I bought it this month again.
This is pertinent I think as it pretty well addresses 'traditional', pre-20th c orchestration.
For me it is not nearly enough, but I never did a 'classical' job in my life, my perspective skews away from that in a non-trivial way.

The full percussion includes everything I have installed here in Exotic Percussion, which much of is becoming standard in 20th c. writing. It has everything one needs for Varèse Ionisation on purpose.
Is upright bass traditional? I have no need for another.
XXL TamTam, well how traditional is Stockhausen Mikrophonie?
No, the basic patch is a bigger Tam than the biggest in the Cymbals and Gongs.

and what doesn't: Epic Orchestra free with VE Pro. It resembles the KFL VSL Demo stuff, LITE.

Okay, so it looks like we're talking somewhere between 3 and 5 thousand to "cover" the needs to do a traditional orchestral score.

Now, have I spent that much on EWQL stuff?

Here's the breakdown

Hollywood Strings Gold -399
East West SO Gold - 375
East West Choirs - 375
Composers Collection (Below) - 800

Goliath
Hollywood Brass Gold
Stormdrum 2
Pianos Gold
Ministry of Rock 2
Solo Violin
Spaces

Another Collection Sale (Below) - 694

RA
Silk
Voices Of Passion
Hollywood Woodwinds

Hollywood Percussion - 129
Hollywood Orch Diamond -287
EWQL Symphonic Plat - 267

So my total EWQL expenditures comes to about $3,300. But look at all that I got for that. Almost their entire catalog.

Between 2013 and today, I've spent about $26,000 on all my music related stuff. You can imagine how that's pretty much tapped me out since I don't earn a lot per year from my library business. Right now, I have about a grand to spend and that's it. And that would leave me broke.

So yeah, maybe in 2013, if I was smart, I had the money for Vienna. But now, I simply don't. And I probably won't for a very long time. The super package is $14,000 in US currency.

Even if I just wanted all the orchestral strings (not including the solo strings) it's $1,155 US currency.

Maybe after next year's income tax refund I can swing it if I buy nothing else that year.

[Armagibbon]

Hey if you gotta budget I know how that goes. Now I aint in the market for this stuff but when I was before I joined up with the crew down at the studio I went like this... pick one thing and use the f*ck out of it for a month. I picked up symphobia first thing and made a whole buncha shit so I know that thing like the back of my hand now. Next thing I picked up was hollywood strings a couple months later...

Why not grab 1 full instrument every couple months and get to know the way the gear handles as you go? You know... pick up the piccolo and write a buncha stuff for it til you got enough saved for the next one, pick up the trumpet and so on... if those instruments are all that you def gonna have fun playin it for a lil while imo. But if it aint you only bought one so not a big loss right?

[wagtunes]

Hey if you gotta budget I know how that goes. Now I aint in the market for this stuff but when I was before I joined up with the crew down at the studio I went like this... pick one thing and use the f*ck out of it for a month. I picked up symphobia first thing and made a whole buncha shit so I know that thing like the back of my hand now. Next thing I picked up was hollywood strings a couple months later...

Why not grab 1 full instrument every couple months and get to know the way the gear handles as you go? You know... pick up the piccolo and write a buncha stuff for it til you got enough saved for the next one, pick up the trumpet and so on... if those instruments are all that you def gonna have fun playin it for a lil while imo. But if it aint you only bought one so not a big loss right?

You have a point. But I certainly wouldn't start with a piccolo and a trumpet. I'd probably start with the orchestral strings. Even then, I'll have to save up a bit. But it's doable. Certainly no later than May of next year.

[jancivil]

I'm going to have to base my entire economy around VSL Synchron FX Strings next month. As I have seriously wanted something like this for a decade if not more. The ONLY lib like this is an age-old IRCAM thing for UVI. And it's so 2002, you know.

This is another thing, I donno if they planned this one but it's a very popular request at their forum.
$286.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, you know. I would go strictly with Synchron Stage for strings from them at this point. This is the future for them.

[jancivil]

East West has them blowout sales fr. time to time, VSL NEVER does that.

I think you have all you need, Steven. I just hate EWQL is all I'm really doing here.
One reason is RA. It has some LOVELY sounds but the articulation is so_lame. And the documentation is idiotic, all these tunings with no context and no description, nothing but this list and names which most people don't know and some of which are probably just wrong.

That was the one which made me have the oversized dongle I don't have any room for. And about everything I would compare with Kontakt Factory, World, sounded the same anyway, only I was too cool for KFL.

[SpiritHanyou]

Have you checked out Symphony Series by Native Instruments? I am by no means an expert but i think it sounds great, and the interface is nice which is always a plus ^_^.

[fmr]

You have a point. But I certainly wouldn't start with a piccolo and a trumpet. I'd probably start with the orchestral strings. Even then, I'll have to save up a bit. But it's doable. Certainly no later than May of next year.

Then start with Synchron Strings: https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Packa ... _Strings_I

It is at a special launch price (€ 446 for the standard library and € 817 for the full library), and for what I heard and judging from the audio demos, it's a hell of a library. You can later add the Synchron FX Strings, which, as Jan stated, simply has no competition whatsoever (but may not be your cup of tea either).

[noiseboyuk]

(FWIW... most of the people I know who were really looking forward to Synchron Strings have been disappointed by them. I am of the heretical view that VSL are entirely barking up the wrong tree with the Synchron series, so much of their success has been to do with the benefits of their silent stage, with that world-beating legato in particular. They've zero prior experience of working in ambient spaces, and now they're competing with others that have had 10-15 years experience of working this problem. IMO they should have poured all that cash into better spatial modelling, which I'm convinced is a better future - keep the samples (relatively) dry and then model all the characteristics of performers playing together in a physical space.

As it is in this thread, I don't think its even an option for the OP. Historically I'm no great fan of East West, but their entire Hollywood Orchestra for 220 euros is under half the price of the cut down flawed single VSL section, and the strings and brass in it in particular are excellent. Oh, and yes to whoever said it - the difference between between Play 4 and Play 5 really is that big, performance-wise. Again, this from someone who wanted to throw my entire rig out of the window because of Play 10 years ago - just calling it as I find it).

[Phazma]

Wow thanks for the numerous answers! Seems like almost all of you agree that VSL would be the best there is to get. However spending more than 1K now is over my budget.

Although I (still) can't make a living out of music I am earning a little money by offering various musical services like composition and production of all kinds of electronic music (from EDM and beats to more experimental music), sounddesign/foley/sfx, jingles, mixing, audio editing, liveaudio, production lessons and so forth. I am also trained when it comes to classical harmony and also some more "exotic" music theory (studied electronic Avantgarde composition) but I had little education when it comes to composing for instruments. However I am determined that I finally want to start this and cover up that "lack" so that I can compose also classical orchestra, filmscore, chamber music, bands and as soon as possible I would also like to add this to my list of services so I can do orchestral music for trailers and films but also for whatever other application it could have, like for example dance-performances.

I thought the quickest way to learn this auto-didactically is just directly diving into it, taking the scores of some shorter pieces or single movements from symphonies or suites written for big orchestras (like I said Gustav Holst - Mars, The Bringer of War for example) and transcribe them into MIDI instrument by instrument. This way it will naturally lead me to research how to do stuff like translate dynamic indications into velocity, I will be confronted with various possible articulations for various instruments, I will based on listening to a reference recording experiment with various MIDI editing possibilities, create imperfections and various tweaks to match the recording and so train my ear and understand which skills are necessary to create convincing orchestral music and last but not least by being confronted with classical scores intensively I will get an understanding about how composers arrange pieces, what instruments play together when, what are typical melodic lines to be played by instruments and hopefully all this together will after a handful of transcriptions inspire me and give me the skills to make a simple but convincing orchestral piece out of my ideas.

As I have Komplete 9, including the NI Factory Library, Session Strings and few other libraries I just started transcribing Mars, the Bringer of War but already on the first page I ran into complications as NI's strings don't offer articulations like being played "col legno", so I had to do workarounds like using pizzicato which sounded the least different. I was also missing some instruments so I had to use similar ones, and all this together lead to an unconvincing sound that I don't know if my lack of experience has all the fault or the libraries just don't allow remaking such pieces.
So I thought I could buy a complete library for once so that I have all instruments and articulaions and these things don't get into my way and I can start and focus on training and later composing like described before. I found the EWQL library and thought for a half a grand being covered sounds great but apparently I won't be covered for various big orchestras and as this thread shows things get a bit more complicated and pricey to do what I want.

So I guess a more intelligent thing to ask is if you maybe can agree on a few libraries being best suited in terms of sound and articulations/flexibility for various instruments or groups of instruments? Like
Best STRINGS (Hollywood-ish / Big Classical / Chamber / Solo)
Best BRASS (Hollywood / Big Classical / Jazz)
Best WOODWINDS (Hollywood / Big Classical / Chamber / Solo)
Best PERCUSSION (Hollywood / Big Classical / Experimental)
Best KEYS (Realistic Piano - Flexible Piano / Organ / Clavicembalo)
Best CHOIRS (Gregorian / Impactful-Drammatic-Phrases / Church-choir / Children)
Any OTHER categories of Instruments that find application in Orchestra?

Also do those professional libraries allow a number (or typical numbers) of instruments of a category to be selected (like for example 2 oboes, 3 Clarinets in B-flat, 6 Horns in F etc.)?

And btw if I decided to get an EWQL libraries would I have to buy PLAY 5 separately like in the case of VSL with Vienna Instruments Pro?

[fmr]

And btw if I decided to get an EWQL libraries would I have to buy PLAY 5 separately like in the case of VSL with Vienna Instruments Pro?

When you buy any VSL library, you get Vienna Instruments and Vienna Ensemble for free. Only to get the Pro versions do you have to pay. The same way, you get Play v5 for free, but to get Play v6 you have to pay too (only subscribers of the Composers Cloud get the v6 of Play for free).

[Phazma]

And btw if I decided to get an EWQL libraries would I have to buy PLAY 5 separately like in the case of VSL with Vienna Instruments Pro?

When you buy any VSL library, you get Vienna Instruments and Vienna Ensemble for free. Only to get the Pro versions do you have to pay. The same way, you get Play v5 for free, but to get Play v6 you have to pay too (only subscribers of the Composers Cloud get the v6 of Play for free).

Ok thanks for the information!