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Tj Shredder
KVRian
 
1038 posts since 6 Jan, 2017, from Outer Space

Postby Tj Shredder; Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:35 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

SciFiArtMan wrote:
Tj Shredder wrote:Older-style progressive would be progressive rock...;-) Mellotron and Moog modular...
http://equipboard.com/pros/patrick-moraz

What an old dinosaur! Don't you realize "progressive" doesn't mean progressive rock anymore - it means progressive something else! Rock died decades ago, my friend. Now it's all some kind of dance music! Turns out disco won! Just make the beats a little more aggressive, and the synths sounds like a 60's sound effects record, and good ol' disco is reborn with all the boogie goodness of its illustrious past. "Progressive rock" - what a maroon!!! :ud:

;-)
I am astonished actually how many of my kids friends do appreaciate and love progressive rock. Personally I am more into weirdo stuff.
I love to dance, but rarely those who think all music is about dance music actually are able to create good dance music...
Progressive music in the 70s was complex, as complex and deep or even more than classical music. The counter movement was punk, which brought back that pure energy and emotion - get rid of your ratio... All valuable...
TW1306
KVRer
 
20 posts since 23 Apr, 2017

Postby TW1306; Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:52 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

Delta Sign wrote:Yeah, lots and lots of sampling is far more important here than the synths. I just listened to a few examples here, but 95% of the sounds are samples.
The difference to more modern tracks is that they are "bad" samples cut from various tracks instead of perfectly clean samples downloaded from the intertubez. This adds a lot to the character.

You should be able to do that in any decent DAW without many other tools. Most DAWs these days include samplers that are far more capable than anything that was around at the time of those tracks. The selection of samples and the creative use of them is far more important here.

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but honestly with everyone going on about samplers being the way to go, I just can't understand how that makes sense.
To me, absolutely none of the non-drum elements sound like they were/could have been sampled in either of the tracks I linked, and even if I am just misunderstanding and these kind of tracks are in fact possible with mostly samplers, what exactly would I be sampling to get synths like that?
For example from 11:00 to the end in this track youtube.com/watch?v=sxzB-IApEw4&t=660s there are five different synths/sounds, how could sampling possibly be used to create something like them?

Again, sorry if this all just sounds stupid, I'm still really an amateur when it comes to music production, but this is just my opinion on it.
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SciFiArtMan
KVRian
 
1018 posts since 24 May, 2006, from Our Amazing Oasis in Space - USA Section

Postby SciFiArtMan; Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:05 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

Tj Shredder wrote: All valuable...

That's the truth of it all, IMO! Rock'n'roll advanced and mutated, and prog rock was born and evolved, as did disco. And punk refocused our primal leanings, which bought about new wave, but that fell into a rebirth of pop, and the whole thing just goes 'round and 'round. It's actually kinda neat how it works.

But I'm looking forward to the blending of prog rock and electronic music, which is looong overdue in my mind! I've tried to do this... well nearly since I started playing synths, but I'm no good. Someone will get this right someday, and hopefully I'll be in sonic nirvana, again!

Oops, sorry for the thread derail!
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bungle15
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12 posts since 4 Dec, 2015

Postby bungle15; Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:10 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

Long Live prog Rock of the 60s and 70s

Far more musical than todays lego brick bulding moo moo music
EDM is a waste of time . Repetitive kids wind up toy stuff.
It is just playtime with Oscilators and which we used to use tuning Into Radio Luxem :) burg!!
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Gamma-UT
KVRAF
 
4256 posts since 8 Jun, 2009, from UK

Postby Gamma-UT; Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:11 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

@OP.

Forget the samplers. The important point is that answering your question directly (which synths) won't help you. Specific synths don't matter. It's all down to the arrangement and how that is put together. At the time, making a filter sweep on a synth or a bunch of bass notes on a synth and then sampling them and sequencing those samples made it possible to bring a lot of different elements together - but that's even easier in a DAW right now. However, with the tools and techniques available at the time, it made sense to keep the relatively sparse compared to modern productions, using techniques such as hocketing on those one-shots and mini-sequences rather than layering up some kind of mega-lead.

I suspect the problem you're having is that you're focusing on surface details, mostly about specific sounds and not the important stuff which is the sequencing. You need to listen to the structure of the tracks to understand how the elements knit together. Progressive was all about dropping elements in and out as the track, um, progresses.
TW1306
KVRer
 
20 posts since 23 Apr, 2017

Postby TW1306; Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:36 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

Thanks for the advice! The sequencing thing is probably part of it - though to be honest, the reason I posted this in the first place was because my sound design skills are very lacking; I couldn't seem to create 'authentic' (for lack of a better word) sounds using the reason devices so I figured perhaps having access to instruments used at the time might help with that.
Someone on a different forum suggested I take a look at Syntorial though so I'll give that a try, which will hopefully give me the sound design skills I need.
dark_virus
KVRAF
 
1603 posts since 28 Jun, 2007, from Amazon rain forest

Postby dark_virus; Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:49 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

TW1306 wrote:I've been making the older kind of trance and progressive for a while, but have struggled to get an authentic sound using the devices included with Reason.


TW1306 wrote:I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but honestly with everyone going on about samplers being the way to go, I just can't understand how that makes sense.


I think what people are trying to say about samplers is that part of the feel of these tracks comes from old school samplers, which gives a lo-fi character to the sounds, making them fat and somewhat distorted.

It was pretty common for producers to sample, say, a bass sound from a hardware synth and load it on a sampler, so they could manipulate, pitch shift, time stretch and distort it. And, of course, try some weird and creative sequences and arps. This was due to hardware limitations we don't have nowadays.

So, a possible cause of your tracks not being on par with the style/period you're trying to emulate is that modern synths are too clean and crisp whilst these 90s dance tracks were essentialy lo-fi, for today standards at least.
recursive one
KVRAF
 
3592 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:06 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

I've just remembered that I was in touch with this guy, Siberian Son, few years ago, he told me that he had been making all his stuff in Reason. Not sure what version it was, 2.something I think. Seems to be very close to the sound you are after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH5bnwj ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkhsD7l9qYI
I hate incomplete sentences because they ...
omac
KVRist
 
131 posts since 13 Jul, 2009

Postby omac; Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:09 pm Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

TW1306 - what I was getting at in my answers to your question is that for what you posted Reason can do that, and I provided tutorials that would allow you to do that. The conversation shifted to samplers. No one is saying that you have to sample anything. They're saying that those sounds generally came from samplers. Samplers generally came with a bunch of pre-sampled sounds. Usually there were effects applied to those samples. You're probably not going to be able to just use a sound like a preset. You're going to need to develop some other production skills to get the sounds you want.
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Gamma-UT
KVRAF
 
4256 posts since 8 Jun, 2009, from UK

Postby Gamma-UT; Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:53 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

dark_virus wrote:I think what people are trying to say about samplers is that part of the feel of these tracks comes from old school samplers, which gives a lo-fi character to the sounds, making them fat and somewhat distorted.

It was pretty common for producers to sample, say, a bass sound from a hardware synth and load it on a sampler, so they could manipulate, pitch shift, time stretch and distort it. And, of course, try some weird and creative sequences and arps. This was due to hardware limitations we don't have nowadays.


To be honest, in these records, I don't think oldskool sampler crunchiness plays much of a role, it's more about workflow and the artistic decisions people make when dealing with a rig that's mostly MIDI feeding a couple of multitimbral samplers and one or two hardware synths. Even the endless warping and resampling that DnB producers did on Reese-style basses isn't much in evidence on, say, Lemon8's releases. The sound design is pretty basic and is mostly a bit of filtering here and there - the overall arrangement is more about juxtaposing sounds and rhythms in a kind of basic counterpoint: phrase X, gives way to phrase Y, which steps aside for Z. Drop a few out, drop a few in with different filter settings, rinse and repeat.

For shits and giggles, I made a note of one of what is probably one of the easier tracks to reverse-enginer: House (2nd Mix) from Lemon8's 2000 compilation which happens to be on Apple Music. You've got as the core a JFK sampled phrase (from his "I bin ein Berliner" speech) and a chopped-up breakbeat with some other percussion that's probably off a rompler or sample CD and which gets bandpass filtered. For synth sounds, all you've got is a Chicago organ bass (or heavily filtered square wave bass), a few saw-wave filter sweeps, a funky sync lead with a fair amount of pitchbend on the first note or two that gets bandpass filtered in various ways and, towards the end, a clavinet sample that's either a sampled phrase or played in from a rompler. That's pretty much it.

There's not much sound design to go wrong in that lot and I imagine all those sounds or at least sounds that are very similar are lurking in the Reason presets. May the use of a fair amount of bandpass filtering on the core sounds gives the whole thing an overall sound, but on a CD-quality mix it's not especially lofi. The production is pretty pared back compared to a lot of modern stuff though.
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JJ_Jettflow
KVRian
 
735 posts since 23 Jan, 2011

Postby JJ_Jettflow; Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:32 am Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

SciFiArtMan wrote:
Tj Shredder wrote:Older-style progressive would be progressive rock...;-) Mellotron and Moog modular...
http://equipboard.com/pros/patrick-moraz

What an old dinosaur! Don't you realize "progressive" doesn't mean progressive rock anymore - it means progressive something else! Rock died decades ago, my friend. Now it's all some kind of dance music! Turns out disco won! Just make the beats a little more aggressive, and the synths sound like a 60's sound effects record, and good ol' disco is reborn with all the boogie goodness of its illustrious past. "Progressive rock" - what a maroon!!! :ud:


Boomshe, bookshe, boomshe, boomshe, boomshe, boomshe, boomshe, boomshe, boomshe, boomshe, boomshe...


Sorry to break the news to you but neither rock or prog rock is dead...far from it. It may not be popular with a majorityof the kiddies from this generation because all they want is instant gratification; those kiddies of today do not want to have to put in years of learning and practicing to do something worthwhile. That is too much effort.

Here is a few of the many current prog rock bands still out now:

Porcupine Tree
OSI
Lunatic Soul
Tool
f**ked Up
Mastodon
The Pineapple Thief
The Mars Volta
Coheed and Cambria
Periphery
Syd Arthur
Suuns
The Bad Plus
Battles
King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard
The Flowermen
Spock's Beard
Spiritualized
Knifeworld
Dungen

....and many, many more.
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pixel85
KVRist
 
318 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Postby pixel85; Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:52 pm Re: Synths/emulations for older-style progressive?

Seriously, try Roland Cloud for start. Progressive from that times + examples above:
Pads - JV1080 + extension cards had plenty of them that will work without any processing beside EQ of course. Available on Roland Cloud
Leads - Nord Lead (Discovery Pro), Access Virus (Spire is not straight emulation but can do the job), JP8000 (Adam Szabo JP6K is good but you have to add aliasing to very high end to keep it closer to JP8000) and sooner or later it will come to Roland Cloud. Waldorf Q - althrough I can't bet on that one I know that it could be seen in many studios.
Drums: TR909 (Roland Cloud again). Yeah that's all what you need :wink:
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