HELP! Creamware are Shafting me

[Dubya]

Okay, maybe english isn't you guys' first language, so I'll bear that in mind. I had a LunaII card about 3 - 4 years ago. Yes, on my account profile it said I would have to pay to upgrade the Scope version. Not alot IIRC, but it was the principle. It might be different for Pulsar II users, policy might've changed since then, I don't know, frankly I don't care. The main point is, you'd get better customer support using the Korg Oasys dsp card, haha. I got the impression that LunaII owners were treated as second class citizens amongst Creamware...it's understandable, I guess.

People who own Creamware cards (other than Hans Zimmer, woohoo! HEY, Hans Zimmer uses CREAMWARE, and about 3,000 other things) spend more time fiddling in SCOPE than actually making music. OUT.

[Nuisances Sonores]

Creamware users, check your system for a dubya.exe coz YOU'RE MONITORED !
All of you !
( bunch of hopeless fiddlers )
I admit I spend lot of time in presets and patches making, my Zimmer gene is recessive !

[Dubya]

Heheh.

To be fair, it's all computer apps, not just SCOPE, in which one can easily become quagmired in fiddling/tweaking as they offer so many possibilities. Limitation breeds invention.

[valisez]

Noone can blame Creamware for having overly obvious marketing, so your confusion is understandable. They have shifted their product line around quite a bit over the last few years, eventually consolidating everything into the current Scope software. And yes, Creamware have never charged Scope or Pulsar owners.

You said:

...The SCOPE stuff sounded really great...

but now you're saying

...I had a LunaII card about 3 - 4 years ago...

You see, back then the word "Scope" applied only to the top of the line Creamware cards. Scope SP was the 15 dsp card with the Scope software and pretty much all Creamware plugins if I recall. Scope DP was the Scope SP software plus the development kit (which comes with all plugins plus the DP dev environment.

The 6 dsp Pulsar 2 had the Pulsar OS 2.x which came with a base selection of plugins, plus later a "Pro Pack" was offered for new users.

The Luna2 came out in the 2.x days with the Luna OS, and a very stripped down set of plugins. Luna2 also came in Elektra and Powersampler versions, simply trading one small selection of plugins for another. Definately a starter card but at about half the cost of the Pulsar2 it had half the dsp and half the plugins.

Notice something here though, the MAIN difference between the 3 non-development Creamware OS/Card bundles is the bundled plugins. The software itself wasn't radically different under the hood, mostly cosmetic changes and localized support for the i/o options for each card. When Creamware stepped the OS from 2.x to 3.x they consolidated their whole lineup onto the same set of software. That means that the base software key (Scope OS now) had different default plugins associated with it, hence the upgrade cost for the old Luna users. Luna2 (scope home now) even ships with all of the Elektra/Scope/Sampler options in one these days. Also 3.x was where the platform finally began to really shine as well, its unfortunate that you missed out on that.

So yes, you were asked to pay a fee and that sucks, but it was only a single paid update and you would have gotten more functionality for it (like buying the plugins for your card were the available in the shop). Also I recall that as of 2.04g the software was relatively stable across the line so its not like they were asking you to pay for essential bugfixes.

[lawapa]

Ah, but I would expect that I wouldn't have to pay a fee to use my Vintage Card again in a new JD990 when I bought it though

Yes that's correct, but my point was why would you keep something you couldn't actually use (ie. in this example the expansion board) if you had no way of using it other than in the specific hardware? Ie. why sell the SCOPE board and keep the plug-ins? i might be being thick but i don't get it.

Mr A

So I'll assume your Mr Creamware? And if so do you take requests? What about an open ended card? My request is based simply on the assumption that DEV's like `Rene at rgcaudio are writing what I want to use. The UAD-1 and Powecores are fine and dandy but that mind set slams the door on what I consider to be where where computer music is truly heading +)

[sl1200mk2]

So I'll assume your Mr Creamware? And if so do you take requests? What about an open ended card? My request is based simply on the assumption that DEV's like `Rene at rgcaudio are writing what I want to use. The UAD-1 and Powecores are fine and dandy but that mind set slams the door on what I consider to be where where computer music is truly heading +)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you (I'm not reading every post of this thread - only some pages), but Scope is about as open ended as it gets. If you have a 15 DSP card they give you the whole damn DEV kit for FREE. Yeah, the same exact tools they used to charge many thousands for to developers. Several of the developers have even stated the dev kit Creamware is giving away is more complete than the tools they paid for!

How's that for giving back to the community?

[Cabinfever]

some people here talking about ancient history in their creamware memories. pop along to planet z now and look at the "problems" forum. hardly anything posted there because the platform is *ROCK SOLID*

on the other hand a quick trip to ni forums will show what a mess their vstis are in.

as for open and closed system.... well it depends how you define things. in creamware the sdk is free ! so anyone can make the best synths anytime. that seems to me like a very open system yes ? it is things like reason that are closed.

[Mr Arkadin]

So I'll assume your Mr Creamware?

...er. No.

i was done with this thread, but i have been dragged back in (damn).

And if so do you take requests

No, but i know a man who does: one third party (ie. NOT CreamWare) developer called Space F makes some amazing devices for this 'closed' platform and yes i often ask for a function and he'll put it in the next update - and there are many more people like this (Zarg, wavelength, wolf, Adern - sorry if i left anyone out - there are many more).

The UAD-1 and Powecores are fine and dandy but that mind set slams the door on what I consider to be where where computer music is truly heading

And that mind set closes the door on sound possibilities. Some of us (usually the ones who have discovered the sound advantage of these cards (CreamWare in my case) don't necessarily see computer music heading towards a VSTi-only world - now that could be considered as closed a system as any. For me sound is more important than everything being VSTi compatible.

Enough.

Mr Arkadin.

[rounser]

People who own Creamware cards spend more time fiddling in SCOPE than actually making music.

Nah, waste far more time on VSTs.

If anything, the creamware cards are a cure for that, because you choose some synths and effects, then run out of DSPs and have to get on with making a track with just the plugins you've chosen.

[strav100]

I mix Creamware and VSTs together

Use Vst for the background stuff - and sampling - the creamware samplers are shite compared to Kontakt 2

But for synths - no one touches them apart from Minimonsata and Korg Legacy

[lawapa]

So I'll assume your Mr Creamware?

...er. No.

i was done with this thread, but i have been dragged back in (damn).


Enough.

Mr Arkadin.

So the Creamware Platform is more a dsp card along the lines Karma? And not as I assumed a glorified soundcard with interchangable synths? With mension of an sdk I'd liken to a better synthedit? Like you said enough! But I've never heard much by way of comparison. Karma-Creamware. While Karma is majorly complex and expensive. I'll assume Creamware is cheep by comparrison?

[valisez]

Do you mean Karma or Kyma (+Capybara)? Pretty sure you mean Kyma, and its not really the same thing, Kyma is a full software suite, including sequencer, which is sort of a meta-language like MAX/MSP but uses the Capybera dsp instead of just native (cpu) processing. Creamware isn't quite the same thing, but is excellent in its own right and yes, it is a really flexible dsp card system and not something like Yamaha's old soundcard (with just a few fixed synth/effect modules). Of course Kyma's base price (with Capybara) costs $3470 USD base price.

Creamware hasn't really got a sequencer but this isn't really a weakness, typically you use Logic or Cubase (etc) alongside your Creamware card(s) rather than in addition to. Creamware's internal algorithms (atoms) and the nature of the Analog Sharc dsps gives excellent mixing and synthesis. For synthesis and most effects Creamware rocks, and yes the SDK elevates it to be more in the league of Kyma, although even without the SDK its still extremely flexible with great synth emulations from Creamware and 3rd parties, as well as lots of free devices (check Planetz.com/forums). The one caveat is that some of the more advanced dsp stuff Kyma can do is out of the league of the Creamware cards because the Creamware stuff is just a PCI card with no onboard RAM. For the most part this means that convolution and heavy granular-type sample manipulation is better handled elsewhere (native excels at this actually since it has fast access to RAM unlike a PCI card).

That isn't to say that Creamware cards aren't capable of convolution or granular effects. Although there's not yet any convoultion for Creamware, Focusrite's Liquid Channel uses dsps from Analog Devices as well (same company that Creamware gets their dsp chips from) and Liquid Channel uses convolution for its main algorithms. Also Creamware's Modular3 device has some granular effects (meant for realtime processing) in the modular addon Flexor pack from Adern.com. In fact with that in mind I'd say one of the best things about Creamware is the Modular3 synth plus Flexor (I must admit I'm biased in this regard). Adern also has another really kickass goodie coming shortly...

[DevonB]

People who own Creamware cards spend more time fiddling in SCOPE than actually making music.

Nah, waste far more time on VSTs.

If anything, the creamware cards are a cure for that, because you choose some synths and effects, then run out of DSPs and have to get on with making a track with just the plugins you've chosen.

I waste maybe 5-10 more seconds in Scope than I do with VST's. Once you know the environment (1-2 hours learning curve), it's easy. IF I turned on the VST mode, I could do it directly in my host instead, and waste even less time.

Devon

[DevonB]

some people here talking about ancient history in their creamware memories. pop along to planet z now and look at the "problems" forum. hardly anything posted there because the platform is *ROCK SOLID*

on the other hand a quick trip to ni forums will show what a mess their vstis are in.

as for open and closed system.... well it depends how you define things. in creamware the sdk is free ! so anyone can make the best synths anytime. that seems to me like a very open system yes ? it is things like reason that are closed.

Which is also funny as my NI products are just as rock solid as my Scope products are. I know there are some issues in the NI stuff, but for the most part, they do work, and work well. One thing that don't help is how many more people own NI stuff on multiple platforms vs Scope on its own platform and smaller user base.

Devon

[lawapa]

Do you mean Karma or Kyma (+Capybara)? Pretty sure you mean Kyma, and its not really the same thing, Kyma is a full software suite, including sequencer, which is sort of a meta-language like MAX/MSP but uses the Capybera dsp instead of just native (cpu) processing. Creamware isn't quite the same thing, but is excellent in its own right and yes, it is a really flexible dsp card system and not something like Yamaha's old soundcard (with just a few fixed synth/effect modules). Of course Kyma's base price (with Capybara) costs $3470 USD base price.

...

Yes that aced the Question! Scot Solida has a KYMA system. but that price Sorry I got the name wrong. This would tend to make the Creamware stuff seem resonable by comparrison even without convolution/granulation effects.