Sound Design Course

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I'm been producing for a while now. I create most of my music with analogue synths but I'm no stranger to digital synthesis using a a variety of methods. Next year, I'm going to take a year off songwriting and concentrate on digital sound design. The aim is to bring my skill level up and start working on a completely different sound. I already own NI Komplete 7, and next year I will be buying a Symbolic Sounds Paca unit so that I can use the Kyma system.

So, I would like to do a sound design course next year. I'm happy to do an online course, but I don't want to get ripped off, and I don't want to pay for a course where I am just going around and around in circles on the basics. I want to be swamped with new practical information and challenges.

So, please tell me about your experience with formal sound design courses. Here are a few online courses that I have found. I'm particularly interested in hearing from you if you have done one of these courses. I would also love to hear from people who have done Kyma courses.

http://www.dubspot.com/programs/sound-d ... 95#courses (looks ludicrously overpriced)
http://www.pointblankonline.net/sound-design-course.php (looks reasonably priced)
http://www.berkleemusic.com/school/cour ... usca%5fp=t (looks reasonably priced)

PS: Please, no comments on YouTube tutorials, or web sites where I can download ad hoc technique vids. I'm looking for a formal course.

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Nobody has ever undertaken a formal course?

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Seriously, nobody has anything to say about this?

Not even a "You should watch some YouTube videos"?

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Syncretia wrote:Seriously, nobody has anything to say about this?

Not even a "You should watch some YouTube videos"?
Well you did ask us not to say that.

Umm a formal sound design course? never considered it actually.

But as far as sound design tutorials that you buy, I've never bought any because they are often much to basic to be of any real use.

Oh I did buy one from Massive Tutorials which was okay but ultimately it was designed to reach a certain goal and that was it. I like something more, not just the how, but why, so I can think differently about how I approach it.

The best sound design lessons I've ever had are when I've analysed other peoples patches. It's a great and sure way to learn.

Vengeance sound (Deja Vu) did a bank for DUNE which was very cool, it was electro though so not much actual use for me in most of my music but it was so neat how every preset was just about perfect. Really impressed me.

FreshlySqueezed, BigTone whever you can find his presets, Howard Scarr, the usual suspects.

Rob Papen has just done his DVD but I don't know what thats like.

My personal opinion, judging from the course breakdowns (which is all I can do) I'd suggest that your paying more for overheads than you are actual knowledge.

In other words these are larger organizations that have more to pay and so charge you more, not more to teach you, than the some other options.

I've never used it, but Adam Szabo has a link on his site to a course that is much more affordable and is probably pretty good, but it's trance based.
Aiynzahev-sounds
Sound Designer - Soundsets for Pigments, Repro, Diva, Virus TI, Nord Lead 4, Serum, DUNE2, Spire, and others

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Thanks heaps Aiynzahev

Of course, you are right in many ways. Obviously, there is a wealth of information on the internet about Sound Design, and there are a myriad of different ways to learn it. A very good way is to sit down and deconstruct sounds from sample banks. YouTube tutorials and so on are also very good ways of digesting Sound Design.

However, I've got some very strong arguments for doing a good course on the subject. This is not to say that a course would be a complete learning solution. As with everything in life, formal education can only ever be part of the learning solution.
My personal opinion, judging from the course breakdowns (which is all I can do) I'd suggest that your paying more for overheads than you are actual knowledge.
Actually, I doubt that the overhead is that expensive. I think that what you are paying for is brand-name more than anything. In the case of Dubspot, this is definitely the case. But, again, I think your sentiment is correct: you are not paying for a chunk of knowledge that can be transported from one person's head to another.

The reason that I want to undertake a course is to drastically shake up the way I learn. I'm a strong believer in taking as many approaches as possible to learning anything. Of course, I like to watch tutorials, read about sound design, deconstruct presets, and so on, but I would also like to undertake a formal course where I am fed information, assigned tasks, and then those tasks are scrutinised and I am given feedback on my work. I'm happy to pay quite a bit of money of if I can experience this, even if it means paying for a brand name.

So my question is whether or not anyone really has anything to say about a formal course? It seems to me that people are generally quite hostile to the idea altogether. Granted, I bet there are a lot of crap courses out there and that is why so many people are soured by the idea, but that is precisely what I want to avoid.

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You did ask for a formal course, but I'll chime in anyway, because this is certainly more extensive (and organized) than a lot of the ad hoc "stuff" on the inter webs:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/a ... nthsec.htm

Starts with the very basics, has topics on specific technologies, and a lot of practical advice for specific instrument patches (synthesizing hammond organs, flutes, etc.),

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You just reminded me of this one:

http://www.clavia.se/nordmodular/Modula ... rkshop.htm

Love this one, and you can download Clavia G2 demo and do a lot of this yourself while you learn.

That reminds me...
Aiynzahev-sounds
Sound Designer - Soundsets for Pigments, Repro, Diva, Virus TI, Nord Lead 4, Serum, DUNE2, Spire, and others

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Rob Papen has produced a book and video series. I havent' read them, but youtube has some previews, and of course, he is a very accomplished sound designer.
..what goes around comes around..

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this is certainly more extensive (and organized) than a lot of the ad hoc "stuff" on the inter webs:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/a ... nthsec.htm
Yeah, this is fantastic. I'm filing this one away under the list of tutorials etc. I've got to work through.
Rob Papen has produced a book and video series.
Yeah, just had a look at that before. Looks great. I'm considering getting that.



The big thing that both of these are missing is a set of focused exercises that I can work through and get feedback from. This doesn't diminish their value at all, but I really want that structured course with feedback.

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I don't think there's too many people at KVR who have actually taken those courses, as you've requested. Truthfully, I'd think most of them would cry at the thought of all the money going toward something they could have taught themselves, instead of more plugins! can never have enough of those, nope.

If you're really dedicated on taking one though, I'd think your best bet would be to email or call all three, tell them about your interest and concerns, and ask what they think they bring to the table that the other two can't. Schools have people trained to answer these questions, so usually its worth getting as much information you can before you make your choice.

I do know what you mean about wanting some form of assignments to complete, and feedback to know the specifics of your ability and development. At the same time though, you have to learn how to teach yourself these difficult/skilled things without the use of constant input, I guarantee valuable information that you find on your own via trial and error will have greater meaning and stick better with you than something someone simply told you. You'll also learn how to learn better, if that makes sense. Goes along with that saying about teaching a man to fish, but you're doing it for yourself.

Of course this is simply my opinion on the education of creative fields, and does not apply to things like engineering, or programming, or whatever. Sound design's technical aspects that can be learned from a book or lecture is very minimal compared to what is learned through practice. Half of every of these lessons are about things you can read up about anywhere, even with modernized simplicity (Like Papen's book/dvd).

Personally, the only education I'd take for sound design/music production is one that is personally taught by an artist I admire, not a random guy who released a couple songs on a label you've never heard of (or not even that).

I'm just spouting random thoughts at this point, I can't sleep, and I'm soaking up time. :hihi:

edit: Woops, just actually took the time to read what you've posted and saw this paragraph:
The reason that I want to undertake a course is to drastically shake up the way I learn. I'm a strong believer in taking as many approaches as possible to learning anything. Of course, I like to watch tutorials, read about sound design, deconstruct presets, and so on, but I would also like to undertake a formal course where I am fed information, assigned tasks, and then those tasks are scrutinised and I am given feedback on my work
Actually you're the type of students I can never understand why they are in school. They have the motivation to seek knowledge and practice all on their own, but they some how think that being taught in a manner designed to encompass all levels of.. students, will benefit them. Really, these types of courses are designed for people who want an all-in-one package so they don't have to do any research on the subject, and can skip what they believe to be a very tedious initial learning process. You know what components it takes to practice sound design, it seems all you really need to do is practice. An education designed to teach the basics isn't going to teach you anything more than that. and sound design doesn't have advanced classes because there is nothing advanced to teach, its just personal techniques. Its like the millions of youtube videos all about how to make a single component of a track, they're just teaching your their personal technique for making it. Thats all there is to teach past the basics.

sorry Im rambling again.

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Even though I know you don't want to hear this I'll have to go with what most other people here are saying in recommending just putting in the time to working through it on your own and using the resources on the internet for any formal "lecture-style" education that you may need. I'm guessing that while you may want to do this to really step up your intuition and sound design skills for ALL potential applications that there are still probably a few specific sounds that you'd really like to know how to create and so I'd give the generic advice of starting with trying to recreate those using any synth of your choice. Or, better yet, picking maybe 4 or 5 very different sounds and recreating each one using each type of synthesis - for example you may have a nice flute lead in mind - now try to create it using additive synthesis, then subtractive, then FM or AM, then wavetable and so on. Each one will teach you more about the advantages and shortcomings of each of these synthesis methods and more importantly will help improve your intuition, which is what this is really all about. I'm no expert but this is the approach I have taken and haven't regretted it at all - sure it takes a lot of time but the things you learn by doing, especially supplemented with readings some good books and tutorials on synthesis, are all you really need, even if it takes some time.

Now, since that's probably not what you wanted to hear I will say I've heard good things about Dubspot, although that was coming from people looking for the "quick and easy" way to do it (well, aside from just using other people's patches), and I'm honestly not too sure how well they could do if I gave them a random sound and asked them to recreate it as closely as possible but YMMV. Whatever you choose I would recommend, as JD Gaffe said, contacting all three companies and trying to make them really sell you on the product - they are investments after all.

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OK guys. I really appreciate all of your input. I am taking it on board, but I was really after comments on courses. It almost seems as though everyone on this forum is fundamentally opposed to organised education. I'm quite perplexed as to where this attitude comes from. I think a lot of people have said it probably true, but I also believe that it's probably true because the schools that exist simply don't do a good job. I'm not sure. But anyway...
If you're really dedicated on taking one though, I'd think your best bet would be to email or call all three
Hell no! The last thing I want to do is to talk to their sales people and get the sales pitch. That can only result in pain. I want to hear from people who have actually done courses so that I can get a first hand opinion from people who have actually done the course.

OK. I really didn't want to get in to a justification for formal education. But, I feel that it's necessary at this point.
Of course this is simply my opinion on the education of creative fields, and does not apply to things like engineering, or programming, or whatever. Sound design's technical aspects that can be learned from a book or lecture is very minimal compared to what is learned through practice. Half of every of these lessons are about things you can read up about anywhere, even with modernized simplicity (Like Papen's book/dvd).
This attitude seems to be endemic among producers. Please hear me out before you write off the entire foundation of western thinking: education. Let me give you some background. I started programming when I was about 10. I went to music school when I finished high school, and started studying programming at the same time. I did both these courses at TAFE (Australian technical college things) I can safely say that I learned very little at either of these two courses. I had always learned everything 100% by myself. I taught myself to program, and I taught myself to play. I found that being taught didn't help much at all.

So I wound up in the IT industry and got a bit bored with it. Something was lacking in my life and I had recently started reading a lot of philosophy. At that point I moved to Japan and started learning Japanese which wasn't enough for me so I enrolled in a philosophy degree by correspondence. I think it was at this point that I started to realise the potential value of good education. I stuck at this degree for about 9 years and finally finished it a couple of years ago. The key point about this course was this:

If someone asked me, could you learn philosophy without doing a course? I would simply answer yes. But, if someone asked me, would you have learned as much about philosophy if you had not done the course, the answer would simply be no.

I could have learned philosophy by myself, but years of being forced to be disciplined in terms of handing essays in on time and so on meant that I was forced to get a good foundational knowledge of philosophy. I value having done this course very much.

Aside from philosophy though, programming is a much better analogy for this discussion. If you think that Sound Design is something that needs to be learned by practice and by piecing together information by scouring the internet, then you'd be in for a rude shock with programming. Sometimes up to 50% of my time at work is dedicated to searching for pieces of the grand puzzle. I constantly have to learn new information, research new technology, practice, find ways to be more efficient and so on. There is absolutely no resting on laurels when it comes to programming. You are either constantly sharpening your toolset, or you are unemployed.

But, a few years back I did a couple of programming subjects through RMIT University in Melbourne as part of my degree. And, I can safely say that those subjects definitely boosted my programming knowledge. They took me in areas that I had not yet explored, and I had to deal with problems that had not come up in my working environment. Those subjects were well worth doing.

So, to come back to my original point. I have no doubt that I would benefit from a Sound Design course. Formal education does not benefit everyone, but it certainly benefits me. And, I suspect that it would benefit a lot of other people if they would open up to it a bit more. Saying all that though, it doesn't seem that there is a great deal of education out there in the area of Sound Design over the web. It really just seems that sites like Dubspot have already monopolised the market and people are willing to pay thousands of dollars to do a mediocre course.

None of this means that people shouldn't attempt to learn and practice by themselves - quite the contrary. Formal courses (especially those done via correspondence) can create a great structured framework for self-learning. I should know, I've done plenty of it.

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I am really excited about Syntorial. It's not out yet, and I'm not sure when it will be, but I've gotten email updates that say he's making good progress on it. Conceptually, I think it will be totally awesome. We'll see how it plays out.[/url]

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That looks fantastic! Great idea.

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i have not seen a good tutorial on yt - ever.
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