:::Axiom Pro vs. Novation SL MK II::: What do u think???

[ZChris]

I've just ordered the Remote 49 Mk2, I closely compared the 2 and some others (Kontrol, MPK) online as I can't get to test them for real. I watched all the reviews and videos I can find and from what I can tell the Novation is both superior in number of controls and superior in terms of software too with the Automap stuff. Only thing I worry about is the build quality, more on that when I get it.

[ZChris]

If anyone is still interested I've got my SL (49 key) and have some initial impressions.

First up the build quality seems pretty good, a bit plasticy but everything feels quite solid. The controls all work well and have a nice feel to them but the touch sensitivity is kinda annoying as slightly brushing a control by accident will cause the display to change or flicker. The drum pads are small but usable and they take a fairly hard tap with a fingertip to get sound out of them. They key action is a typical Fatar one and is similar to most other devices I used with Fatar sourced synth action keys. That is to say it has a nice feel and is very playable. The real downer was the touchpad I was expecting a nice easy way to control those XY parameters but instead you must press so hard on it for it to respond it's actually quite tricky to drag your finger around smoothly - perhaps it can be adjusted?

The real let down is the software. Novation spin a good marketing line making it sound like Automap is the next best thing, but really it's not as useful as they make out. Most of the plugins it wraps it seems to have default settings that pick up bizarre controls from the bowels of the plugin I'd never normally change in real time and give them cryptic names, thus you must still slowly and painfully setup each plugin you use. Automap also seems kinda flaky, inconsistently switching sometimes when a plugin has focus and other times not and sometimes not even taking focus when clicking the [A] button it can attach to the plugin interface for this purpose. Sometimes I can't even get it to recognise the plugin is loaded at all and revert to using the mouse again! For basic control of DAW transport controls and faders everything seems fine though.

Second point here Automap only works with a few DAW which is fine if you are a PT/Cubase/Logic/Sonar user (or Reaper oddly enough). FL Studio and Live and the new Studio One demo are just some of the ones it doesn't support. For these you must use Advanced mode which is basically just using it like a standard midi controller. I haven't played with it in depth yet but it seems like in this mode you can't map all the buttons and I haven't found a way to page between fader banks in this mode. The value indicator LED's on the endless encoder rotary controls do not seem to work in this mode either thus making another feature useless.

To sum up, it really feels like Novation have tried too hard to make a compact midi controller that will do everything but ended up with a bit of an overcomplicated mess. I'm thinking the Mk III or IV will be pretty top but it's not quite there yet. I'd recommend getting something cheaper and more basic meanwhile, I think I will return mine and give the M-Audio a spin.

Forgive me if I have said anything incorrect here - as I said I have only just got the thing and haven't fully read through the manuals and experimented with it.

[zerocrossing]

which unit am I going to be recommending to my clients?? and indeed, using myself???

The Novation.... No question....

I've been a big Novation fan since way back and I fully agree. The Axiom feels like a toy in comparison.

[zerocrossing]

Novation spin a good marketing line making it sound like Automap is the next best thing, but really it's not as useful as they make out. Most of the plugins it wraps it seems to have default settings that pick up bizarre controls from the bowels of the plugin I'd never normally change in real time and give them cryptic names,

That's not Novation's fault, it's how the developer of the VST named them. Some plug ins work great.

[menthol]

If anyone is still interested I've got my SL (49 key) and have some initial impressions.

[ ... snippage of depressing text ... ]

To sum up, it really feels like Novation have tried too hard to make a compact midi controller that will do everything but ended up with a bit of an overcomplicated mess. I'm thinking the Mk III or IV will be pretty top but it's not quite there yet. I'd recommend getting something cheaper and more basic meanwhile, I think I will return mine and give the M-Audio a spin.

From what other KVR-ers are saying, you might want to try the Akai MPK61 first ... ?

[thecontrolcentre]

Automap only works with a few DAW which is fine if you are a PT/Cubase/Logic/Sonar user (or Reaper oddly enough). FL Studio and Live and the new Studio One demo are just some of the ones it doesn't support. For these you must use Advanced mode which is basically just using it like a standard midi controller.

I use my reMOTE 25SL and Automap3 with Live 8. I have the Novation selected as a remote in Live's preferences, and the Live template selected on the keyboard. It works great. Live's controls map automatically to the faders and buttons on the right-hand panel, and whatever FX or VST is focused on is auto-mapped to the left panel. Perfect for me.

[edit]In Live 8 you now have to map some third party VSTs yourself, depending on how many midi-parameters they have. Live's own VSTs all automap correctly ...

[luzil]

tested it now myself for one week and cant confirm Zchris post at all. Of course its not the cheapest one, but if u want to handle several and complex vsti the mpk25 and axiom are not comparable. Abletons operator is fully automapped in 8 template pages, any ableton fx is automatically assigned 8 LED knobs which is mostly enough. Faders work fine with single traces volume. Also Reasons Synths and Redrum are pretty good automapped. Drum pads too.

Its not to the task of novation to map all available vsti reasonable, also everybody is using complex snyths like FM8 in an sligthly other way, and automapping is so fast with the touch sensitive knobs, so its really no hint. Also switching midi learned templates is so fast, one speed dial push and touch a sensitive knob.

The touch pad is a bit strange but i think its purpose is more to make fast swooshy sound effects and not hyper sensitive touchpad adjusting. Rolling a small rubber ball over it rather then finger works well.

[ZChris]

I'm going to do a little followup after trying out both units.

Basically both of these controllers are very bad overall. If this is the best to offer on the MIDI controller market it's in very poor shape indeed. I'm not sure what most people around here find acceptable, but for me having to spend weeks setting up, looking up and typing in MIDI CC and MMC numbers, making profiles to get all my plugins working as I want is unacceptable. I wanted a controller to make life easier instead both succeeded in making it a lot more complicated.

The problem isn't with the Hardware as both units are reasonably well designed and well built. Neither of them has had nearly as much care gone into integrating them with software.

Hypercontrol only supports 4.2 DAW (.2 is Live which is totally broken).
Automap supports a few more, minus a few of the controllers key selling point features. Now in theory you could get both controller to work with anything but people don't seem to realise doing this method of 'generic controller' setup takes forever and kills half of the main features such as detecting and displaying the correct parameters of the plugin you are currently controlling on the LCD display.

I've just boxed up the Axiom Pro to send back after realising I would have to code my own Hypercontrol for it to work correctly with all my software. It's a real shame because I love the controller itself, a sturdy compact thing with a nice feel I really, really wanted to keep.

There's definately a need here for some standards to be defined, like for example transport controls which should work out of the box for any controller that has them on any software that has them. Not so right now. Hell M-Audio even breaks it's own standards... telling your DAW your Axiom Pro is another M-Audio controller won't work. In fairness this is as much to to with the coding of the DAW itself as the drivers for the hardware but still.

If you bothered to read through this far of my disgruntled complaining... my advice, if you aren't a Pro Tools, Cubase or Logic user stick with a decent plain keyboard controller and a laptop, you can almost buy both for the same price.

[C-note]

I'm going to do a little followup after trying out both units.

Basically both of these controllers are very bad overall. If this is the best to offer on the MIDI controller market it's in very poor shape indeed. I'm not sure what most people around here find acceptable, but for me having to spend weeks setting up, looking up and typing in MIDI CC and MMC numbers, making profiles to get all my plugins working as I want is unacceptable. I wanted a controller to make life easier instead both succeeded in making it a lot more complicated.

The problem isn't with the Hardware as both units are reasonably well designed and well built. Neither of them has had nearly as much care gone into integrating them with software.

Hypercontrol only supports 4.2 DAW (.2 is Live which is totally broken).
Automap supports a few more, minus a few of the controllers key selling point features. Now in theory you could get both controller to work with anything but people don't seem to realise doing this method of 'generic controller' setup takes forever and kills half of the main features such as detecting and displaying the correct parameters of the plugin you are currently controlling on the LCD display.

I've just boxed up the Axiom Pro to send back after realising I would have to code my own Hypercontrol for it to work correctly with all my software. It's a real shame because I love the controller itself, a sturdy compact thing with a nice feel I really, really wanted to keep.

There's definately a need here for some standards to be defined, like for example transport controls which should work out of the box for any controller that has them on any software that has them. Not so right now. Hell M-Audio even breaks it's own standards... telling your DAW your Axiom Pro is another M-Audio controller won't work. In fairness this is as much to to with the coding of the DAW itself as the drivers for the hardware but still.

If you bothered to read through this far of my disgruntled complaining... my advice, if you aren't a Pro Tools, Cubase or Logic user stick with a decent plain keyboard controller and a laptop, you can almost buy both for the same price.

I have both a Remote 61 SL MK 1 and a Nocturn. The SL 61 does take some time to set up as per some comments here but, this is to be expected as any studio or live setup needs to be customized to your particular way of working. As far as " too many obscure parameters" showing up - just use learn on the automap screen and your own personal setup is ready! Whats cool is the way automap (since v2 I think) shows up on the computer screen now in transparent mode. The SL 61 works fine as mentioned above in Live.

C

[LiteOn]

Basically both of these controllers are very bad overall. If this is the best to offer on the MIDI controller market it's in very poor shape indeed. I'm not sure what most people around here find acceptable, but for me having to spend weeks setting up, looking up and typing in MIDI CC and MMC numbers, making profiles to get all my plugins working as I want is unacceptable. I wanted a controller to make life easier instead both succeeded in making it a lot more complicated.

The problem isn't with the Hardware as both units are reasonably well designed and well built. Neither of them has had nearly as much care gone into integrating them with software.

I have the original ReMOTE 49 for years now. Frankly, I've never used the controller function that much. With the basic templates I would always have to switch between a DAW and synth templates. In my usual Cubase sessions this isn't very intuitive and doesn't speed up things at all. Just recently I bound 8 knobs to Cubase's QuickContols, it made things a bit better but it's still not what I wanted.
So I was first looking for a ZeRO SL MkII together with Automap 3. But after watching all those Automap videos I still wasn't convinced. Sure, it's a real improvement but on the other side still to much clicking around - at least for me. And because I was afraid that I again wouldn't be using all those knobs and sliders in the long run, I skipped the 'big' ZeRO SL MkII and turned to its little brother Nocturn. It's wery reasonably priced and overall a good bang for the buck. But again, even if it would reduce my investment dramatically, again the hazzle associated with the generic approach would fail with me.

Finally I ended up with getting me a CC121. As easy as it can be. Just installed the usb driver and the Cubase extensions - and it simply works. No need to remember any controller assigments or to read them up on some displays. Dedicated controls looking exactly like in Cubase, rotary controls can be mapped to QuickControls. My best controller experience so far.

Pros:
- ease of setup
- build quality
- grade of integration
- usage experience


Cons:
- tied to Cubase
- not programmable (yet)
- pricey


Cheers,
LiteOn


edit: typos

[C-note]

I have the original ReMOTE 49 for years now. Frankly, I've never used the controller function that much. With the basic templates I would always have to switch between a DAW and synth templates. In my usual Cubase sessions this isn't very intuitive and doesn't speed up things at all. Just recently I bound 8 knobs to Cubase's QuickContols, it made things a bit better but it's still not what I wanted.
So I was first looking for a ZeRO SL MkII together with Automap 3. But after watching all those Automap videos I still wasn't convinced. Sure, it's a real improvement but on the other side still to much clicking around - at least for me. And because I was afraid that I again wouldn't be using all those knobs and sliders in the long run, I skipped the 'big' ZeRO SL MkII and turned to its little brother Nocturn. It's wery reasonably priced and overall a good bang for the buck. But again, even if it would reduce my investment dramatically, again the hazzle associated with the generic approach would fail with me.

Finally I ended up with getting me a CC121. As easy as it can be. Just installed the usb driver and the Cubase extensions - and it simply works. No need to remember any controller assigments or to read them up on some displays. Dedicated controls looking exactly like in Cubase, rotary controls can be mapped to QuickControls. My best controller experience so far.

Pros:
- ease of setup
- build quality
- grade of integration
- usage experience


Cons:
- tied to Cubase
- not programmable (yet)
- pricey


Cheers,
LiteOn


edit: typos

I have been eyeing a CC121 so thanks for the info/review!

Cheers,

C

[djanthonyw]

which unit am I going to be recommending to my clients?? and indeed, using myself???

The Novation.... No question....

I've been a big Novation fan since way back and I fully agree. The Axiom feels like a toy in comparison.

+1 All of the M-Audio stuff feels like a toy.

[DeepFiber]

Allright i have limited edition remote sl 37.

first impression: its a b1tch to set up, first I just tried to start reason and hook it up by usb, not a god damn thing happened. Then i went on installing the things from the cd, oh my reason version is not supported all the sudden (even tho it should be). The keybord needs new firmware, need to download this in the keyboard from the computer, done, need to install automap and whatnot on the computer, done.

Look at novations site for updates, find new automap 3,3, download it, install it, install newer firmware in the keyboard, done, now it should be working right?? no.

read pdfs ReMOTE_SL_User_Guide_English.pdf / Automap_3_User_Guide_Automap_3_User_Guide.pdf

and now finally I can get it to work with reason, It only took me like 3 hours,
basically its not a plug and play keyboard, not even close, for example how should I know I need to set it up as both a controller and keyboard to get it fully working.

But its finally working so I'm happy. Read the pdfs. To be honest if you want it to work like this: works with everything, just a few clicks and youre set, forget it it wont work, you really need to read up on how it works, then after a few hours you can probably set things up pretty much as you want while reading the manuals every minute.

[VocalEngine]

Sorry everyone for my late answer. I was kinda busy as always.

So, first of all, I would like to thank you everyone for sharing your time and your answers by reading this post and express my final conclusion about these interesting products. In my opinion as Russ said in this post we SHOULDN'T MAKE A DETERMINATION on something which rely on forums. Forums should help us in a different way. Which one is better for a special area, such as studio, stage, plugins, which one fits better in some particular zone, the flexibility, dynamics (if it's about a MIDI controllers such as in this case), keybeds etc. We shouldn't judge the products if their visual style looks artful tremendous admirable and desired. That's just a part of the marketing strategy. Also, we shouldn't judge if the name written on those pieces has better commercial, cooperate with giant companies, such as m-audio with digidesign or avid and it's more renown worldwide than the others. Just make up your mind upon your taste, style and especially about your needs. I think you shouldn't argue about the opinions. For an instance, Max, honestly, I liked your review and comparison about these products, it's such a detail, helps a lot to create some view about the products, and I saw the same review by you on the net on different forums too, but that doesn't mean that you have to argue by proving with mentioning your position as an engineer with somebody else which doesn't think just like you think. I'm saying that it's your opinion and the others has enough brain to make a decision upon your experience and tests and no one can't argue with your opinion too if it's not too much convincing. You like it! That doesn't mean to like it everyone, as I said we're all judges of our brain and of our money. As Russ said and I'm sharing my opinion with him too as I mentioned above, (you shouldn't share it of course, unless you like it) we should not make any decisions by reading the forums and the influence of convincing audience on the forums. Forums only help us, how the product really acts by our needs.

Also I would like to express my opinion and give some advice when you'll want to play with your money for your expensive toys.

OK, it's time for the company X to release a new product. Some other company Y releases the same product too. There's a such a fuss, dilemma, hey, which one is the best, how it acts with the software, hardware, my music genre, needs etc. For a moment, forget about all commercial on the net. The best tremendous and honest commercial is MADE BY OURSELVES, THE PEOPLE! Every company cannot allow a good marketing campaign, but that doesn't mean that their products sucks for that reason. It's the same with the design too. So, take a little note. Let's look a little bit from psychological aspect on this. When the product releases at first, be patient. Stay calm for some month. You waited for it such a long time. You could wait and for some months. After that, take a look at the used stuff on the internet on the concrete piece of gear you want to. So, what's the results so far? What do you think? Let me explain you this in a different and a very interesting fact. You like some girlfriend/boyfriend. Yeah, you want to try it you want to feel it how it will looks like being together and love each other. And suddenly...hypothetically speaking you feel it, or you're finding out how it looks like, as I said hypothetically let's say the result is 'you don't like her/him'. Well, here's the question now: Will you break up with your girlfriend/boyfriend if you don't like her/him on the beginning of your relationship or will you wait maybe for a several months or eventually years? lol That's how it looks like with the products too, you won't sell it so fast if you really like it. For an instance, I've been enormous curious when some of my favorite products (I won't mention which one) that I adore so much was released. Of course, I didn't buy it at first. I stayed calm for some while. After that, I was a little bit confused. What's going on? Was it the same product that I've been waiting for so long? Of course not. Most of the people wanted to get rid of that named "expensive professional toy" that costs a lot and by the way with a loss of half price. Why? The name is so expensive right? Ohh yes it is. What I want to say is, go out there, make some search be aware, make some notes, and ask yourself: why the people sell that stuff so fast after their buying? You decide! You're the boss of your money!

Anyways I almost forgot to tell you my opinion and decision which one of these products fits in my needs. It's Novation SL MKII. Too bad for M-Audio, I loved Axiom's enormously, especially their design really much. hehe First look. WOW! 'Those cherries looks or must be very tasty'. Ohh no, too much worms inside, you don't want to eat cherries anymore lol.

Don't take me wrong. It's just my opinion, the product apparently will satisfies my needs, but hey, wait a minute, maybe not YOURS. Maybe your needs and your final results will satisfy the opposite.

Remember, It's all about the marketing on the market. You can sell it a piece of sh*t if you have a good marketing campaign strategy and support. lol

Cheers to everyone from Macedonia.

by VocalEngine
Kiril Shishkoski

[Redmerkurii]

Let me tell you, I have spilled a full pint of Beer on my SL, during a gig and the thing just kept on, I've been very happy with the life its had.

Now this should be one of the primary standards by which all keyboards/controllers should be measured.

I own an Akai MPK 49, I got it when they first came out otherwise it would have been a 61. Anyhow earlier in the year I regrettably spilled about 3/4 of a bottle of Becks over the keys and some of the buttons so after a bit of a clean through the day after its been fine since

Now can anyone claim this level of robustness from their Axioms lol.