I have this one->
http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/ms6.php
Can recomend it, but not for control tweaking.
Basically you have to dial in your sound with the PC editor,
it doesn't react in realtime, altough it does have an LFO.
Plusses are there too,
so worth it's a mention.
It has DCOs, so it's still an analog generator,
but it doesn't go out of tune.
It has 6 polyphony,12 voices, which is a lot.
You could get one for around $300 Aus.,
which is what I paid for mine.
It sounds cool, kinda basic compared the complexity of VSTi s,
but it has nice tone.
Ready for my first analog synth - Suggestions?
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- KVRAF
- 5146 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
that's actually not true. a dco works by dividing down the master clock frequency which is the same as playing a sample at the frequency of the clock.nix808 wrote:It has DCOs, so it's still an analog generator,
the important thing though is that because the clock is divided from a single stable source, you won't get effects like drift or modulation of the frequency per-osc, phase locking or any of those other "analog" effects.
it can be considered "analog" in amplitude, but not frequency. a simple example of this difference is if you play a sample from your pc's soundcard and filter it, has it become analog? the amplitude has, yes because it can take on any analog value and it is continuous. it's still going to be quantized to the sample rate (clock) though which is the definition of digital.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 5146 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia
OK hmm,
I think it is digital control of an analog circuit's pitch, though,
as you say.
Yourself, u don't consider MS6 analog?
edit-
OK, thanks I understand better now.
So it is incremented by digital itered clock and smoothed by a DAC.
hmm,
I think it sounds analog,
can post some sounds.
I think it is digital control of an analog circuit's pitch, though,
as you say.
Yourself, u don't consider MS6 analog?
edit-
OK, thanks I understand better now.
So it is incremented by digital itered clock and smoothed by a DAC.
hmm,
I think it sounds analog,
can post some sounds.
Last edited by nix808 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
if it's digital control of an analog circuit's pitch, that would make it analog. the same as something like a sh-101 being controlled by midi.
...but that isn't a dco.
it's easier to understand if you look at the term "dco" as meaning "digitally clocked oscillator".
of course any analog oscillator controlled from a midi->cv or any kind of digital controller would be a dco then. yet why would you call it that? it's a vco controlled digitally. a dco as in the juno synthesizers is different and it is not a vco. it can not oscillate without digital clock pulses.
...but that isn't a dco.
it's easier to understand if you look at the term "dco" as meaning "digitally clocked oscillator".
of course any analog oscillator controlled from a midi->cv or any kind of digital controller would be a dco then. yet why would you call it that? it's a vco controlled digitally. a dco as in the juno synthesizers is different and it is not a vco. it can not oscillate without digital clock pulses.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 5146 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia
"Towards the end of the eighties, the British company Cheetah released their finest, the MS6. It's a 6-voice polyphonic/multitimbral analog synthesizer in a single-unit rack module. It has two digitally controlled oscillators per voice (12 DCOs) to provide better stability, and they sound surprisingly warm and musical"
Unless vintage synth explorer has misinterpreted the term too, it isn't quite analog.
Thanks for the heads up on DCO ad
Unless vintage synth explorer has misinterpreted the term too, it isn't quite analog.
Thanks for the heads up on DCO ad
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
it doesn't make a very big difference. you can't really hear in most cases any differences on normal waveforms.
you start to hear modulation in VCOs when you play high notes. the 60hz or 50hz ripple on the power supply will create a "dirty" effect. this is usually very undesirable at high frequency. you can't use such an oscillator to produce good flute sounds.
at low frequencies such as for bass notes this modulation will create the same "dirty" effect but will now be sort of a "crunchy" timbre. this brings out the harmonics a little more and emphasizes some filter effects.
up/down slew rates are often not equal. this will create a similar "dirty" effect on a pulse wave. the effect will be similar to if you used a very slightly off-square pulse width. it will also soften some timbres - if the up-slew is slower than down-slew, a narrow pulse in one direction will be slightly brighter than the opposite.
in a polyphonic synthesizer you'll get the well-known drift effects where each oscillator moves slightly out of tune individually. not only in absolute detune, but also in scale tracking.
a less known effect is phase-locking between oscillators in a polyphonic synthesizer. this will cause oscillators which are very close to in tune (10 cents?) to lock. that is because some of the sync pulse from oscillator reset leaks into another near-by oscillator. you won't get the slow phasing sound you would expect with small amounts of detune.
some VCOs will heat up slightly when high frequencies are played. this means that playing a high note followed by bass notes, you might get a slow drift of pitch back into it's expected tuning. it could start from slightly too sharp or too flat, depending upon the oscillator circuit.
any dco-based synth like a juno-106, alpha-juno or similar will not include any of these effects.
http://soundcloud.com/aciddose/22k_gabr_femur_mix-mod
here you have an example of the sh-09 in the left channel. you can hear the "dirty" effect. this is mostly due to instability of the oscillator timing and not because of asymmetric slew rates.
i should make better examples... but you can hear at least the difference it makes even if you couldn't identify it on your own. the oscillator does sound very slightly more "crunchy" and seems to pick up the edges of the filter resonance a little more as the frequency sweep moves over it.
you start to hear modulation in VCOs when you play high notes. the 60hz or 50hz ripple on the power supply will create a "dirty" effect. this is usually very undesirable at high frequency. you can't use such an oscillator to produce good flute sounds.
at low frequencies such as for bass notes this modulation will create the same "dirty" effect but will now be sort of a "crunchy" timbre. this brings out the harmonics a little more and emphasizes some filter effects.
up/down slew rates are often not equal. this will create a similar "dirty" effect on a pulse wave. the effect will be similar to if you used a very slightly off-square pulse width. it will also soften some timbres - if the up-slew is slower than down-slew, a narrow pulse in one direction will be slightly brighter than the opposite.
in a polyphonic synthesizer you'll get the well-known drift effects where each oscillator moves slightly out of tune individually. not only in absolute detune, but also in scale tracking.
a less known effect is phase-locking between oscillators in a polyphonic synthesizer. this will cause oscillators which are very close to in tune (10 cents?) to lock. that is because some of the sync pulse from oscillator reset leaks into another near-by oscillator. you won't get the slow phasing sound you would expect with small amounts of detune.
some VCOs will heat up slightly when high frequencies are played. this means that playing a high note followed by bass notes, you might get a slow drift of pitch back into it's expected tuning. it could start from slightly too sharp or too flat, depending upon the oscillator circuit.
any dco-based synth like a juno-106, alpha-juno or similar will not include any of these effects.
http://soundcloud.com/aciddose/22k_gabr_femur_mix-mod
here you have an example of the sh-09 in the left channel. you can hear the "dirty" effect. this is mostly due to instability of the oscillator timing and not because of asymmetric slew rates.
i should make better examples... but you can hear at least the difference it makes even if you couldn't identify it on your own. the oscillator does sound very slightly more "crunchy" and seems to pick up the edges of the filter resonance a little more as the frequency sweep moves over it.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 5146 posts since 22 Jul, 2006 from Tasmania, Australia
Thanks for the demo,
perhaps there is too much going on in it for me to make the distiction,
but I hear what ur saying.
My Cheetah probably has a more clean sound than many other analogs(especially in extreme ranges). So do DCOs alias?
There must be a place for VST effects emulating these analog synth characteristics I suppose, although I guess it is more effective building a VA.
I know for example that the plain waveform shapes in Cheetah are imperfect compared to a digital wavetable, though, so it retains some character.
So this digital clock- I guess it's 44.1 khz?
perhaps there is too much going on in it for me to make the distiction,
but I hear what ur saying.
My Cheetah probably has a more clean sound than many other analogs(especially in extreme ranges). So do DCOs alias?
There must be a place for VST effects emulating these analog synth characteristics I suppose, although I guess it is more effective building a VA.
I know for example that the plain waveform shapes in Cheetah are imperfect compared to a digital wavetable, though, so it retains some character.
So this digital clock- I guess it's 44.1 khz?
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
i doubt it. it's probably more like 2mhz or even 4mhz.
it does alias, but only as much as if you the same sample rate.
so let's assume 48khz - you need to oversample 20x to get close to a similar sample rate. (1mhz)
if the clock was 2mhz, you'd need 40x oversample.
you should know of course that oversampling by 16x is quite good. it isn't perfect, but the level of aliasing is low even with only 16x.
you probably couldn't easily emulate these effects with vst plugins - not by processing the audio.
you could emulate them by applying frequency modulation and special filters to the DCOs though.
...and yes of course you can emulate the same effects using modulation and filters in a software synthesizer.
more on the topic though - i think the sh-09 is actually a really good synthesizer if you only want to play it directly. it has cv input so it isn't too difficult to implement control of pitch, but you still won't be able to automate cutoff.
the ms-10 and ms-20 are also very popular "toy" synthesizers and although they use linear cv it is also not impossible to control them via midi. at least they include patch-in points for cutoff and other parameters.
i'd say go with a juno, alpha-juno or jx- to start. you can always sell it again if you don't like it and they are fairly cheap. the advantage of the jx- synthesizers is your ability to automate any parameter - disadvantage of course being that you only get 7-bit accuracy for parameters which means your sweeps probably won't be smooth.
in that vain the ms6 is also a good choice as are many of the other dco-based poly synthesizers from the 80s and 90s.
it really depends upon what you're trying to use them for.
i'd have a lot of trouble choosing between a ms-10 and sh-09, or ms-20 and sh-03. they're all small variations. the ms- keep in scale tune better, but they have far worse detune drift and are harder to control by midi. the sh-09 has active temperature control, but it takes quite a long time to stabilize after you turn it on.
regarding modifications:
i've modified my sh-09 with passive tempco... i've also subtracted two octaves from the pitch and added two to the keyboard circuit, moved the glide after the sample and hold, inserted a diode on square lfo to pitch, routed noise as the default "ext input" when nothing is plugged in, reduced the filter's input resistance to allow higher gain inputs, increased the signal level through the filter and vca... replaced the sub-oscillator chips with standard cmos flipflops. replaced the ba662s with lm13700s. i even replaced the power supply with one based on generic 780x/790x chips. removed the headphone circuit (source of noise.)
i wish the sh-09 came like this in the first place. lower noise, lower power requirements, more stable tuning and all generic components.
unfortunately most synthesizers don't come like that. so you have to know what you're getting into if you choose to buy a monosynth. you get it "as-is" unless you're willing to hack it like i have.
it does alias, but only as much as if you the same sample rate.
so let's assume 48khz - you need to oversample 20x to get close to a similar sample rate. (1mhz)
if the clock was 2mhz, you'd need 40x oversample.
you should know of course that oversampling by 16x is quite good. it isn't perfect, but the level of aliasing is low even with only 16x.
you probably couldn't easily emulate these effects with vst plugins - not by processing the audio.
you could emulate them by applying frequency modulation and special filters to the DCOs though.
...and yes of course you can emulate the same effects using modulation and filters in a software synthesizer.
more on the topic though - i think the sh-09 is actually a really good synthesizer if you only want to play it directly. it has cv input so it isn't too difficult to implement control of pitch, but you still won't be able to automate cutoff.
the ms-10 and ms-20 are also very popular "toy" synthesizers and although they use linear cv it is also not impossible to control them via midi. at least they include patch-in points for cutoff and other parameters.
i'd say go with a juno, alpha-juno or jx- to start. you can always sell it again if you don't like it and they are fairly cheap. the advantage of the jx- synthesizers is your ability to automate any parameter - disadvantage of course being that you only get 7-bit accuracy for parameters which means your sweeps probably won't be smooth.
in that vain the ms6 is also a good choice as are many of the other dco-based poly synthesizers from the 80s and 90s.
it really depends upon what you're trying to use them for.
i'd have a lot of trouble choosing between a ms-10 and sh-09, or ms-20 and sh-03. they're all small variations. the ms- keep in scale tune better, but they have far worse detune drift and are harder to control by midi. the sh-09 has active temperature control, but it takes quite a long time to stabilize after you turn it on.
regarding modifications:
i've modified my sh-09 with passive tempco... i've also subtracted two octaves from the pitch and added two to the keyboard circuit, moved the glide after the sample and hold, inserted a diode on square lfo to pitch, routed noise as the default "ext input" when nothing is plugged in, reduced the filter's input resistance to allow higher gain inputs, increased the signal level through the filter and vca... replaced the sub-oscillator chips with standard cmos flipflops. replaced the ba662s with lm13700s. i even replaced the power supply with one based on generic 780x/790x chips. removed the headphone circuit (source of noise.)
i wish the sh-09 came like this in the first place. lower noise, lower power requirements, more stable tuning and all generic components.
unfortunately most synthesizers don't come like that. so you have to know what you're getting into if you choose to buy a monosynth. you get it "as-is" unless you're willing to hack it like i have.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 424 posts since 12 Oct, 2009 from London, UK
Thanks for all the replys guys. Regarding Diva, I had been using the beta since the the day it was available and bought the day it went on sale. My CPU hasn't been the same since 
It was actually Diva that gave me the final push to jump in to the analog realm.
I've definitlynot ruled out the DE either. Thanks, ya I remember those audio clips from Diva, some nice stuff in there.
I definitly want something with midi (or usb) too.
Overall my heart is saying buy the Slim Phatty NOW but my head is saying STOP there's not enough knobs to twiddle. The Dominion X looks the most tweakable and has nice features like 3 oscillators and a multimode filer. The lack of sync on the Mono Lancet turns me off it a little. The Dark Energy is still tempting. I think I'd like to see the Minitaur also before I make a purchase. Choice is such a terrible thing
I was looking into my cash situation a little more and if all goes well I think I maybe able to stretch into the €800 region
It was actually Diva that gave me the final push to jump in to the analog realm. Ya between the 30 minutes or so of stuff on the MFB page there was only a little I found to be of use. Some actually sounded terrible to me but maybe find about 2 minutes or so of times when I thought "that's nice, I could use that".zerocrossing wrote:Hm, those tracks seem to be doing nothing to sell the MFB to me. I'd even go so far as to say they sound kind of horrible to me. The oscs sound kind of dull and the filters stiff. If that's a true representation of it's sound I'd suggest Diva instead, as others have.
The Dark Energy sounds a lot better IMO. I considered it myself, but I don't want to have to noodle about every time I want a new sound. I love patch memory, but that's me. Check out some Diva examples:
I've definitlynot ruled out the DE either. Thanks, ya I remember those audio clips from Diva, some nice stuff in there.
Don't know if I would go with the older stuff, don't want the hassle of maintenance and don't know how well it was looked after either. I bought a car a few months ago and everything looked great but when I had it down my mechanics a few weeks later he showed me too many things wrong with it, just wasn't cared for, not serviced properly.aciddose wrote:juno-60,106,alpha,jx,jupiter are all good bets, some are more affordable than others.
they also pretty much all lack the real flavor of a lot of monophonics like the ms-10, mono/poly or sh-09, 101, mc-202 and so on.
I definitly want something with midi (or usb) too.
Thanks but it's the whole looking at the screen thing I want to avoid too.nix808 wrote:I have this one->
http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/ms6.php
Can recomend it, but not for control tweaking.
Basically you have to dial in your sound with the PC editor,
it doesn't react in realtime, altough it does have an LFO.
Overall my heart is saying buy the Slim Phatty NOW but my head is saying STOP there's not enough knobs to twiddle. The Dominion X looks the most tweakable and has nice features like 3 oscillators and a multimode filer. The lack of sync on the Mono Lancet turns me off it a little. The Dark Energy is still tempting. I think I'd like to see the Minitaur also before I make a purchase. Choice is such a terrible thing
I was looking into my cash situation a little more and if all goes well I think I maybe able to stretch into the €800 region
Deep N' Dusty House Grooves !!!
Artist: http://soundcloud.com/nigel
Label: http://soundcloud.com/diplopiarecords
Artist: http://soundcloud.com/nigel
Label: http://soundcloud.com/diplopiarecords
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- KVRist
- 329 posts since 7 Feb, 2008
I'm not sure whether it's been mentioned at all here... but... I have had several analog synths over the years including SH's and Juno's plus a DSi Mopho. However the only analog synth I still have and still use (a lot) is the Novation Super Bass Station.
It's pure analog filers and DCO's (i think - but they are analog).... a knob for every parameter, THE Juno Chorus, arpegiator, 200 memories..... etc etc etc........
You need the 'Super' Bass station as this gives you the sub-ocsillator and extra preset locations.
Main thing is it sounds amazing!! And around £200!! And small!!
Regds Prev.
ADD - MIDI AND CV !!!
It's pure analog filers and DCO's (i think - but they are analog).... a knob for every parameter, THE Juno Chorus, arpegiator, 200 memories..... etc etc etc........
You need the 'Super' Bass station as this gives you the sub-ocsillator and extra preset locations.
Main thing is it sounds amazing!! And around £200!! And small!!
Regds Prev.
ADD - MIDI AND CV !!!
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- KVRAF
- 16391 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
Do that. I really wasn't interested in it at all from the announcements or videos, it was only when I used it in person that I realized how much better it is than everything else.Nig wrote:I think I'd like to see the Minitaur also before I make a purchase.
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- KVRAF
- 16391 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
It's still a good one. The funny thing is that it fits much better in a mix with the Virus TI than my Waldorf Pulse and Studio Electronics ATC-1 do, which are so fat and massive sounding that they take up all the space.Prevalence wrote:However the only analog synth I still have and still use (a lot) is the Novation Super Bass Station.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 424 posts since 12 Oct, 2009 from London, UK
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I bit the bullet today and ordered the Slim Phatty, got a seriously good deal, better that originally thought so couldn't pass it up. Should be here in the morning 
I've listened and searched around all weekend at different analogs and from what I seen and heard nothing really gave me that wow factor from when I used the SP. Bad YouTube clips and sound demos didn't help either, didn't want to take a chance with that much money. I know the tweakability is slightly reduced on the SP but something tells me it's gonna be worth it. Some synths not being available at the moment and no definite release date was also another factor for me.
I can't imagine this being my last analog synth anyway so many things here will be taken into consideration for next time.
Thanks again...
I've listened and searched around all weekend at different analogs and from what I seen and heard nothing really gave me that wow factor from when I used the SP. Bad YouTube clips and sound demos didn't help either, didn't want to take a chance with that much money. I know the tweakability is slightly reduced on the SP but something tells me it's gonna be worth it. Some synths not being available at the moment and no definite release date was also another factor for me.
I can't imagine this being my last analog synth anyway so many things here will be taken into consideration for next time.
Thanks again...
Deep N' Dusty House Grooves !!!
Artist: http://soundcloud.com/nigel
Label: http://soundcloud.com/diplopiarecords
Artist: http://soundcloud.com/nigel
Label: http://soundcloud.com/diplopiarecords
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- KVRAF
- 2544 posts since 20 Apr, 2005
True... couldn't think which track from the album to link for you, and ended u picking one that actually isn;t close to the track you postedhimalaya wrote:Thanks for the link. The track is very nice, I'll have to explore that artist some more. However, it's in a completely different sonic world to that DSI demo. Very different styles, one is 100% Electro/Synth Poppish ditty, the other is more Lounge/Chill Out/'Hawaiian Surf Dreams' kinda stuff._leras wrote: Whole album like that, but better?
Isolee - Wearemonster
e.g
<youtube>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBfhQisZDpg</youtube>
.
The whole album though is quite in that vein, dark, broody minimalish, but melodic.... And it is definitely an 'Album' of music too...
.
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- KVRian
- 979 posts since 7 Jan, 2011 from UK
Slim Phatty is an awesome synth-I have the little Phatty and it sounds brilliant.I don't think you will be disapointed in your choice.
Check out the eastern scale update if it does not already have it installed.
Check out the eastern scale update if it does not already have it installed.
Synth Magic synths for Konatkt - ARP Quadra, Polymoog and many more. www.synthmagic.co.uk
