KVR Audio

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:08 am

So what if the oscs are digitally stabilized? They're still a VCO design.

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:20 am

EvilDragon wrote:So what if the oscs are digitally stabilized? They're still a VCO design.

Its good news for owners of the original unit.....they are more analogue

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:04 am

Not quite.

"Digitally stabilized" doesn't change the fact that MS-20 has a pure analog voltage controlled oscillator. It's just taking care of the CV which controls the VCO BEFORE it hits the VCO, so things stay in tune. I presume there will be a mod to disable this sooner or later, anyways

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:36 am

My laughing emoticon would indicate i was joking...

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:10 am

Sorry. I just woke up when I saw that post.

ChiTown24 · Post by **ChiTown24** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:12 pm

@EvilDragon

So what if I reported that the oscillators are digitally stabilized ? Is there a limit on the type of information that can be reported in this thread ?

"it's got a midi in"
"so what if it's got a midi in"
"it uses mini jacks"
"so what if it uses mini jacks"

nice contribution.
derp derp.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:50 pm

No, there's no problem in your reporting that they are stabilized. I just wanted to say that this doesn't make the oscillators any less VCO.

Trying to avoid the VCO vs DCO debate, you know

ChiTown24 · Post by **ChiTown24** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:02 pm

EvilDragon wrote:No, there's no problem in your reporting that they are stabilized. I just wanted to say that this doesn't make the oscillators any less VCO.

Trying to avoid the VCO vs DCO debate, you know

well then, try saying it without opening with "so what ?" when someone goes to the trouble of reporting some relevant tech-specs. Perhaps it's a subtlety of the english language you haven't quite grasped, or maybe you're just inherently ignorant, but "so what ?" is pretty combative - amongst other not-so-nice adjectives.

There's a VCO v DCO debate ? Maybe there is, maybe you're tired with it, but unfortunately for you mate it's a relevant point when doing a re-issue/re-make of a classic synth design. You're just going to have to stomach that other people might have a preference different to your own. And I'm no analog purist by the way, but so far the only person bringing dogma to the table is yourself when you try and shut down anyone - in advance - who might even express a hint of preferring a non-digitally stablized oscillator.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:35 pm

The Moog Slim Phatty which i got has real VCOs with an additional auto tune feature that could be turned on/off and/or could be running the the whole time if you like. Maybe this is meant with "digitally stabilized" ? Some vintage synths like the Jupiter 8 seemed to have the same feature.

quote from Gearslutz:
"they used auto-tune in the monotribe. It's probably the same in this."

link:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electron ... -20-a.html

The only other way to have "digitally stabilized" oscillators seems to have DCOs but there are different kinds of DCOs too...

I guess that this one was already posted several times concerning that topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally_ ... oscillator

Ingo

KBSoundSmith · Post by **KBSoundSmith** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:51 pm

ChiTown24 wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:No, there's no problem in your reporting that they are stabilized. I just wanted to say that this doesn't make the oscillators any less VCO.

Trying to avoid the VCO vs DCO debate, you know
well then, try saying it without opening with "so what ?" when someone goes to the trouble of reporting some relevant tech-specs. Perhaps it's a subtlety of the english language you haven't quite grasped, or maybe you're just inherently ignorant, but "so what ?" is pretty combative - amongst other not-so-nice adjectives.

There's a VCO v DCO debate ? Maybe there is, maybe you're tired with it, but unfortunately for you mate it's a relevant point when doing a re-issue/re-make of a classic synth design. You're just going to have to stomach that other people might have a preference different to your own. And I'm no analog purist by the way, but so far the only person bringing dogma to the table is yourself when you try and shut down anyone - in advance - who might even express a hint of preferring a non-digitally stablized oscillator.

Frankly, I don't think EvilDragon was being all that "combative," if instead a bit careless. There's certainly enough wiggle room in what he wrote to interpret it as non-aggressive. Perhaps it is a subtlety of the English language you haven't quite grasped, or perhaps you're just inherently ignorant, but written language can be interpreted in many ways and is more often a reflection of the one reading the passage than the one who wrote it (especially true of quick one-line posts on internet forums).

Certainly there are far more aggressive ways to state something than he did, and can he blamed for trying to avoid a discussion which never amounts to anything but embittered posts from dogmatists, whether relevant to a topic of discussion or not? I'm sure you can stomach the idea that some people prefer to keep the topic of discussion positive, and I'm sure you would agree that they needn't be chided on a public forum for such efforts, when one can simply ignore the post in question? Perhaps you'd agree that scoldings can be saved for more overtly aggressive posts instead?

Otherwise, I'm interested in what people think when comparing the MS 20 mini to the new Moog Sub Phatty, in particular the sound of the filters. Obviously, the MS 20 has an iconic sound, but the Sub Phatty has more grit than other Moog models. I'm kind of torn between the two, and I'm tempted to sell some stuff to pick up one or the other.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:55 pm

KBSoundSmith wrote:
ChiTown24 wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:No, there's no problem in your reporting that they are stabilized. I just wanted to say that this doesn't make the oscillators any less VCO.

Trying to avoid the VCO vs DCO debate, you know
well then, try saying it without opening with "so what ?" when someone goes to the trouble of reporting some relevant tech-specs. Perhaps it's a subtlety of the english language you haven't quite grasped, or maybe you're just inherently ignorant, but "so what ?" is pretty combative - amongst other not-so-nice adjectives.

There's a VCO v DCO debate ? Maybe there is, maybe you're tired with it, but unfortunately for you mate it's a relevant point when doing a re-issue/re-make of a classic synth design. You're just going to have to stomach that other people might have a preference different to your own. And I'm no analog purist by the way, but so far the only person bringing dogma to the table is yourself when you try and shut down anyone - in advance - who might even express a hint of preferring a non-digitally stablized oscillator.
Frankly, I don't think EvilDragon was being all that "combative," if instead a bit careless. There's certainly enough wiggle room in what he wrote to interpret it as non-aggressive. Perhaps it is a subtlety of the English language you haven't quite grasped, or perhaps you're just inherently ignorant, but written language can be interpreted in many ways and is more often a reflection of the one reading the passage than the one who wrote it (especially true of quick one-line posts on internet forums).

Certainly there are far more aggressive ways to state something than he did, and can he blamed for trying to avoid a discussion which never amounts to anything but embittered posts from dogmatists, whether relevant to a topic of discussion or not? I'm sure you can stomach the idea that some people prefer to keep the topic of discussion positive, and I'm sure you would agree that they needn't be chided on a public forum for such efforts, when one can simply ignore the post in question? Perhaps you'd agree that scoldings can be saved for more overtly aggressive posts instead?

I also think he can be forgiven for thinking you were seeing it as a problem considering you ended the post with a "say it ain't so". I also thought that was what you were implying (i.e as a DCO vs VCO type concern).

himalaya · Post by **himalaya** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:14 pm

Use the *Chi* for the good, Yoda used to say.

or as the Rolling Stones used to say: Overreaction does not bring on satisfaction,

(Wat?!)

Otherwise, I'm interested in what people think when comparing the MS 20 mini to the new Moog Sub Phatty, in particular the sound of the filters.

Even without listening to these filters in person, it could be said that these couldn't be more different. MS20's resonant LPF and HPF filters are the gateway to some very cool sounds: band pass madness or formant-like sounds, amongst other uses. Some of the video clips showed that the combination of the Multidrive and the LPF on the Sub Phatty could also give a nice format like sweep but it will never be as effective as on the MS20.

I'd say the the Sub and the MS20 are a perfect pair. One providing some traditional Moog sounds (plus much more) and the other providing some extreme sonic madness. Add a poly synth (DSI Tetra?) with a nice chorus pedal and you will have a nice all analog set up ready for any challenge. All without having to scour eBay for analog synth. Pheew! That feels good.

KBSoundSmith · Post by **KBSoundSmith** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:40 pm

himalaya wrote:Use the *Chi* for the good, Yoda used to say.
or as the Rolling Stones used to say: Overreaction does not bring on satisfaction, (Wat?!)

Otherwise, I'm interested in what people think when comparing the MS 20 mini to the new Moog Sub Phatty, in particular the sound of the filters.
Even without listening to these filters in person, it could be said that these couldn't be more different. MS20's resonant LPF and HPF filters are the gateway to some very cool sounds: band pass madness or formant-like sounds, amongst other uses. Some of the video clips showed that the combination of the Multidrive and the LPF on the Sub Phatty could also give a nice format like sweep but it will never be as effective as on the MS20.

I'd say the the Sub and the MS20 are a perfect pair. One providing some traditional Moog sounds (plus much more) and the other providing some extreme sonic madness. Add a poly synth (DSI Tetra?) with a nice chorus pedal and you will have a nice all analog set up ready for any challenge. All without having to scour eBay for analog synth. Pheew! That feels good.

They definitely seem like they were made to sit side by side. It seems the Sub Phatty's filter cautiously tries to move in the direction of where the MS 20 has long been, but still very different. It somewhat bridges a gap between the two sound worlds. The Sub Phatty's DAW integration is also really nice, and MIDI is a welcome addition to the MS 20 (although I haven't heard too much on that aspect of it yet). Very cool synths.

Sequent · Post by **Sequent** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:40 pm

So far I've mainly heard very positive things about the Mini, I'm not worried. And yeah... use the *Chi* for good!

The Mini, the Sub Phatty, the Tetra... and the MiniBrute... as well as some of the other "boutique" items (like the starter systems from Pittsburgh Modular)... life is good! And as you say... not having to scour ebay makes it even better.

ChiTown24 · Post by **ChiTown24** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:41 pm

KBSoundSmith wrote: Frankly

Yes, lets be frank.
I realise my response to EvilDragon wasn't "nice". That was half the point. It's not "nice" to offer a blunt "so what ?" when someone goes to the trouble of reporting tech specs. It's ignorant, in fact.
It's also dogmatic to, in advance, attempt shut down anyone who might have a preference for a non digitally stabilized oscillator, or stifle that line of discussion by suggesting such preferences are trite and part of some dogmatic debate. Trite & dogmatic as a VCO v DCO debate might be, I don't think it applies in a remake/reissue situation where these little differences are more relevant. Like I said, it is only himself - imo - who has thus far brought dogma to the table. It's more than a little counter productive to "fight" an as yet non-present dogmatic debate... with dogma.

And to answer the cute way you "turned" my own words against me, hehe, well no. I'm not missing out on any subtleties. My interpretation of his "so what?" was guided by his previous posts in this thread particularly in regard to those who feel the keys might be smaller than they prefer. Seems to me he's pretty intolerant of differing opinions and rather than just accept them for what they are, personal preferences, he feels the need to shut them down.

@amused
yes, I did say "say it aint so" a few pages ago regarding digitally stablized oscillators. if you go back to the post you'll see the comment came after I had provided a link to sweetwater, where the quote was made. you know, trying to bring some actual info to the table along with the opinions. try it some time ?

KORG to re-release the MS-20!