new full poly-AT keyboards potentially on the horizon (crowdfunding)

[whyterabbyt]

(Courtesy of CDM)
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/07/e ... one-right/

In case its of interest to anyone, there's an Indiegogo vrowdfunding campaign up and running for full poly-aftertouch 25- and 49-note keyboards. These are regular style keyboards, not some kind of alternare sensor like the QuNexus. Presumably if the company gets off the ground larger offerings will be introduced in future.

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ndvr- ... erkeyboard

According to the investment-level tables, $235 will get you the 25-note keyboard and $349 the 49-note version.

[EvilDragon]

Awesome. Will keep track of this.

[Shy]

Initially disappointed but:

Hey guys! We will implement MIDI Jacks. More on that in a few days! We are preparing some new Videos/Infos and so on …

Great potential for controlling multiple parameters smoothly with a little practice. I just wonder about the quality of the keyboard/keybed.

[Ashe37]

Optical sensors? for each key? so you're increasing the potential mechanism failure rate by how much?

[EvilDragon]

Why increasing? Optical sensors are all fine and dandy and very durable in our common computer mices.

[Ashe37]

the 25 key version would have 25 sensors, the 49 key version 49 of them. Its just like a RAID on your computer, when you combine multiple devices in a non-redudant manner the possibility of a single one of them failing increases.

[EvilDragon]

And our scanners have how many optical sensors per inch and yet they are fine!


I think this will be a lot more reliable than mechanical PAT.

[jupiter8]

I don't quite see how you would do it without a sensor for each key so no matter what, you'll have the same problem.

[EvilDragon]

In any case it would be easier to replace ONE sensor if it dies than a whole array of sensors covering all keys...

[Ashe37]

because I'm sure the replacement parts will be available everywhere, and everyone will know how to put them in...

[whyterabbyt]

Hsa anyone ever eschewed a keyboard (musical or alphabetic) because the number of switches on it theoretically increases the failure rate?

I would have thought that a simple system based on a single modern optical sensor per key would have a lower failure rate than the complex poly-AT keyboards that used to be made.
Hell, arent the mechanics of any key system going to be the most likely point of failure. Moving parts wear.

I have no idea why this notion has been introduced as some sort of 'flaw' of this design, when the core arguments being used are equally applicable to all other keyboards existent, often to a greater extent.

[EvilDragon]

Precisely.

[Ashe37]

Hsa anyone ever eschewed a keyboard (musical or alphabetic) because the number of switches on it theoretically increases the failure rate?

I would have thought that a simple system based on a single modern optical sensor per key would have a lower failure rate than the complex poly-AT keyboards that used to be made.
Hell, arent the mechanics of any key system going to be the most likely point of failure. Moving parts wear.

I have no idea why this notion has been introduced as some sort of 'flaw' of this design, when the core arguments being used are equally applicable to all other keyboards existent, often to a greater extent.

Look into the Ensoniq VFX. It still has a horrible reputations as having keyboard problems, and being prone to failure, even thought the fix for those problems has been known for something like 18 years.Even know they are still considered by reputation to be unreliable and this has serious impacted their price on the used market, despite their synthesis capability, and this reputation for unreliability has extended to later models in the series as well, even when they didn't have the same problem.

(And since the VFX is currently a cheap-to-acquire poly AT keyboard, a perfectly relevant addition to this thread)

My point is, this is a new and different keyboard sensor mechanism. We don't know how it will work, how it will wear, and how it would stand up to gigging. No one is going to know how to work on it initially, and no one besides the manufacturer is going to have any replacement parts, and the manufacturer is an unknown factor- the background for the indiegogo campaign tells us ZIP about any of the people involved. Hence why so many companies use off-the shelf keyboard mechanisms, usually made by Fatar. (Note: Fatar made the mechanisms for the Ensoniq poly AT keyboards, like the VFX, as well...) Roland, Korg and Yamaha make their own keyboard mechanisms, but many many others just use Fatar units. (incidentally why many 90s Korg keyboards can use Yamaha keys as replacements, the M3 was the first new keybed Korg has made in awhile... Korg used to get all their keybeds from Yamaha.)

That and you're paying $250-$350 for a 25 or 49 key keyboard with... well, almost nothing besides the keyboard. If you want that, there's a bunch of $100-$150 old Ensoniq Poly AT synths and samplers on Ebay, and they have 61 keys

[whyterabbyt]

Look into the Ensoniq VFX. It still has a horrible reputations as having keyboard problems, and being prone to failure, even thought the fix for those problems has been known for something like 18 years.Even know they are still considered by reputation to be unreliable and this has serious impacted their price on the used market, despite their synthesis capability, and this reputation for unreliability has extended to later models in the series as well, even when they didn't have the same problem.
(And since the VFX is currently a cheap-to-acquire poly AT keyboard, a perfectly relevant addition to this thread)

Actually, Im not quite sure how a cheap-to-acquire-but-prone-to-failure-for-18-years keyboard is relevant to this thread.
Its a single example of a legacy keyboard bed with issues.

My point is, this is a new and different keyboard sensor mechanism. We don't know how it will work, how it will wear, and how it would stand up to gigging.

No, indeed we dont. However for some reason its been your implication that it will be less reliable than alternatives, even though your argument against it appears to be the known reliability problems of at least one of those alternatives.

No one is going to know how to work on it initially, and no one besides the manufacturer is going to have any replacement parts, and the manufacturer is an unknown factor- the background for the indiegogo campaign tells us ZIP about any of the people involved. Hence why so many companies use off-the shelf keyboard mechanisms, usually made by Fatar. (Note: Fatar made the mechanisms for the Ensoniq poly AT keyboards, like the VFX, as well...) Roland, Korg and Yamaha make their own keyboard mechanisms, but many many others just use Fatar units. (incidentally why many 90s Korg keyboards can use Yamaha keys as replacements, the M3 was the first new keybed Korg has made in awhile... Korg used to get all their keybeds from Yamaha.)

So are you saying that noone should try innovating with new product designs because they're not established?
Hmmm.

That and you're paying $250-$350 for a 25 or 49 key keyboard with... well, almost nothing besides the keyboard. If you want that, there's a bunch of $100-$150 old Ensoniq Poly AT synths and samplers on Ebay, and they have 61 keys

So are you saying that noone should buy new product designs if they can get 20-year old alternatives off ebay? Is it your contention that old second-hand keybeds using older, more primitive mechanical-hybrid technologies (is going to be intrinsically more reliable than a modern optical sensor based system?

I think all of us are perfectly aware that older poly-AT keyboards exist, and can be bought on ebay. Its not really a cogent argument against a modern-technology attempt at it though.

Im not following the logic for your argument, or its conclusions.

[whyterabbyt]

there's a bunch of $100-$150 old Ensoniq Poly AT synths and samplers on Ebay, and they have 61 keys

could you list a couple? Cheapest EPS im seeing is above $300, and others are $600 and up.