Beginners advice on moving away from VST's

[maudioradium]

I might look into either getting a separate PC and put either OSX or linux on it, then see how it performs with software vsts. Then use the keyboard I'm intending to purchase today as a midi keyboard. I might also try out osx86 hackintosh on my i5 laptop and see how it reliable it is, compared to my bad experiences with vst's on windows.

of course, this is alongside using the keyboard as it is and outputting my ableton live to it.

[bmot]

Serious answer from a pure hardware user. You could replace your PC with a hardware sequencer, then add hardware synths and drum machines as you need. But be aware that it is more work to get set up and you wouldn't believe the number of cables needed! So think about it carefully especially how it will change your workflow. For me it improved (every machine has one job and does it well, rather than browsing through 1000 presets on each VSTi for example - simplicity = more time to make music).

Some sequencers have built in synths and/or samplers too (RS7000, MPCs, E-MU Command Station), some only do sequencing. You can naturally sequence other hardware with them too, that's what they're for, so getting a sound module makes sense in this kind of setup as not everything needs keys. I took that route, now i'm pure hardware and it works for me. I still use Ableton Live to record tracks and some editing/effects. But not for sequencing.

A workstation is an option but it's more expensive and less flexible than buying "separates". My setup of 2 drum machines, 1 sequencer with synth/sampler, 2 analogue bass synths, SammichSID and FM sound module cost around 1500 Euros. I could sell the lot for a decent profit too, good hardware holds its value.

In 1.5 years of this setup i've never had any problems or crashes. Played live quite a few times with it, it's much bulkier than a live laptop setup but more fun to play and also to watch (people are generally fascinated by synths, but not by laptops funnily enough).

If you're interested in exploring this route then I recommend you ask on other forums too. In my experience KVR has a large VST user base and is therefore good for learning about software but not so good for discussing hardware (witness the midi in/keyboard debate earlier for example).

[T-CM11]

I might look into either getting a separate PC and put either OSX or linux on it, then see how it performs with software vsts. Then use the keyboard I'm intending to purchase today as a midi keyboard. I might also try out osx86 hackintosh on my i5 laptop and see how it reliable it is, compared to my bad experiences with vst's on windows.

of course, this is alongside using the keyboard as it is and outputting my ableton live to it.

It's not Windows, it's you. (Since a lot of people have no issues with Windows DAWs, or at least not more than with OSX ) What bad experiences did you have?
btw. there's hardly any music software for Linux.
One thing to know; Apple is not big on backwards compatibility - so it happens once in a while that a discontinued plugin will stop working after an OS upgrade. Also a lot of old synth editors won't work anymore, because they were pre-Intel, or just OS9 or older.

I use both hardware & software. They both have their good & bad sides. Sound programming is definitely more fun with a dedicated knob/slider interface, but with software it's great to just save your song and have easy total recall.
Yeah, cables... I moved recently, unplugged everything and had a giant ball of cables that I just dropped in a big moving box. Untangling them was a full day's work.

[fluffy_little_something]

I have never really used much hardware, so I am wondering if all those cables add latency to the setup? Most cables are several yards long if I am not mistaken.
There might also be issues like ground loops I suppose

[T-CM11]

I have never really used much hardware, so I am wondering if all those cables add latency to the setup? Most cables are several yards long if I am not mistaken.
There might also be issues like ground loops I suppose

I've never heard of added latency with long midi cables. And with audio cables: it's electrical current, right? Do you ever get latency flicking a light switch?
And several yards?? My longest (audio cable) is 5 m.
edit: I looked up Yard, it's 1m, so you're right. You can get USB cables of 5 m/yard, they don't add latency either. AFAIK, latency is just a processing/buffer thing.

[fluffy_little_something]

I have never really used much hardware, so I am wondering if all those cables add latency to the setup? Most cables are several yards long if I am not mistaken.
There might also be issues like ground loops I suppose

I've never heard of added latency with long midi cables. And with audio cables: it's electrical current, right? Do you ever get latency flicking a light switch?
And several yards?? My longest (audio cable) is 5 m.

I don't know if there is latency when turning the light on. The human ear can detect a latency of 10ms if I remember correctly. And with Midi signals there is also some sort of conversion, while with light the same current that flows in the cables also makes the bulb lighten up.

And a yard is less than a meter, so your cable would be 5.5 yards or so. Many audio cables seem to be at least 2 yards long, except for patch cables.

[T-CM11]

I don't know if there is latency when turning the light on. The human ear can detect a latency of 10ms if I remember correctly. And with Midi signals there is also some sort of conversion, while with light the same current that flows in the cables also makes the bulb lighten up.

Anyway I don't think there is any latency (=0) with audio cables. But feel free to ask someone with more knowledge about electricity than me...

Also, if my ear can't detect a latency, then for all intents & purposes it isn't there.

[T-CM11]

Other than the Virus and a few "virtual analogue" synths, most of the hardware synths on the market are simply ROMplers. They play back samples, and involve very little "true" synthesis. There are almost no FM-based synths on the market today (in fact, I can't think of any), and most of the ROMplers are very expensive and have limited sound expansion capabilities and limited MIDI sequencing tools.

Maybe you should check that market again... there's plenty of great analogue monosynths around, a few analogue polys & hybrids, a LOT of modular modules, Waldorf still sells a wavetable synth, some DIY stuff, etc. (and I am talking about new stuff, not 2nd hand)
But yeah, some things like FM & Additive mostly moved to the software realm.
What ROMplers? There's a few workstations out there and that's it. And most of those workstations have an extended synthesis engine - or call it "sound editing/shaping".

[Frantz]

The human ear can detect a latency of 10ms if I remember correctly. And with Midi signals there is also some sort of conversion, while with light the same current that flows in the cables also makes the bulb lighten up.

The cables are not the issue. It's the MIDI protocol which is very old and slow. The problem is MIDI jitter - timing issues that are audible especially with hard quantized material. One of the key reasons I moved ITB was the elimination of that sloppy timing. Note CV doesn't have timing issues.

[fluffy_little_something]

The human ear can detect a latency of 10ms if I remember correctly. And with Midi signals there is also some sort of conversion, while with light the same current that flows in the cables also makes the bulb lighten up.

The cables are not the issue. It's the MIDI protocol which is very old and slow. The problem is MIDI jitter - timing issues that are audible especially with hard quantized material. One of the key reasons I moved ITB was the elimination of that sloppy timing. Note CV doesn't have timing issues.

Does Midi jitter exist in DAW's and VST's as well? I mean, they also use Midi inside, right?

[T-CM11]

Does Midi jitter exist in DAW's and VST's as well? I mean, they also use Midi inside, right?

I thought jitter was mostly noticable with USB Midi interfaces, and a lot less when just interconnecting midi hardware (without PC).
I use an M-Audio Midisport 4x4 and a Steinberg Midex8, and for me the timing is more than good enough.
FL Studio doesn't use Midi inside. And I don't think Cubase either - unless you use CCs to automate plugins.

[thecontrolcentre]

If DAWs don't use MIDI, how do they send note on/off information?

[Frantz]

Does Midi jitter exist in DAW's and VST's as well? I mean, they also use Midi inside, right?

No, the problem manifests itself when transmitting MIDI through cables at the slow speed of 31,250 bits per second. That speed was pretty fast for microprocessors in 1983 but it's slow now. Inside your DAW that transmission speed limitation does not apply.

[T-CM11]

If DAWs don't use MIDI, how do they send note on/off information?

Why does it have to be Midi? For example: you can play notes using CV/gate on analog synths - that isn't Midi either.
Midi is a specific protocol, not the only way to trigger notes.

[Frantz]

I thought jitter was mostly noticable with USB Midi interfaces, and a lot less when just interconnecting midi hardware (without PC).

That's generally true because something like a hardware sequencer was built with timing stability in mind. A PC is doing many tasks and isn't optimized for MIDI timing. However, all MIDI sent through a cable is subject to jitter. It's the nature of the protocol.

I use an M-Audio Midisport 4x4 and a Steinberg Midex8, and for me the timing is more than good enough.

On my old PC, the timing of the Steinberg Midex 8 was so bad, I switched to a hardware sequencer for years but it may have been an issue with my PC.