The Guitar Show (Show yours)

[JCJR]

Re the tuning, as outside spectator playing keys and watching guitarists work for decades, some of them are almost always in tune and rarely have to adjust the tuners. Am convinced that the better guitarists subconsciously micro adjust their finger pressure to play in tune even if the guitar isn't in exact adjustment, or if it has slid out of tune a bit, but not too far out for them to compensate.

When confronting them with my theory, some have denied it, but after all, my theory is that it is a subconscious activity. After all, excellent sax players don't devote much conscious activity to being in tune, but unless a player has the instrument under firm control, sax is a horribly out of tune thang even if you can make it honk and move the fingers appropriately.

[KrisM]

I think it's just something that comes with experience. I've had strings break, crappy tuners on a cheap bass slide out of tune, bad string wraps when I didn't know what I was doing as a teenager, etc lol, and I still managed to play in tune with the rest of my band at the time. I did it all the time playing tuba, too.

As a bass player it's pretty awkward to have your 4th/low E string unwind on you suddenly

[hibidy]

I've been there!!!!!!!!!!!

[JCJR]

I think it's just something that comes with experience. I've had strings break, crappy tuners on a cheap bass slide out of tune, bad string wraps when I didn't know what I was doing as a teenager, etc lol, and I still managed to play in tune with the rest of my band at the time. I did it all the time playing the tuba.

Thanks Kris for relating an experience simultaneously amazing and wonderful. However, basic skepticism would seem to demand the illumination of at least a slight shadow of doubt-- The question whether yours may have been EXACTLY the effect to which I referred.

You appear to have sufficient memory of the phenomena to be capable of reporting the experience in detail-- The very fact of which would seem to argue against it being an unconscious phenomena!

[tapper mike]

We have different tolerances for tuning dependent on the instrument and..our based on our listening experiences. We've grown up in an imperfect world of (mostly) string instrument intonation and the imperfect human voice. Unless extreme we don't notice it as much as we would had all instruments be perfectly tempered.

It only becomes apparent when we are using something like pitch to voltage systems and more so with virtual instruments we've heard in the past with better intonation.

Some people have less tolerance then others when it comes to intonation and temperament. Like... Jan Civil.
She must have the worlds most sensitive ears. She can't even look near a guitar tuner and cringes at the thought of one to tune her guitar. As well she claims ear fatigue from playing even tempered instruments. (I am not making this up she's posted this stuff a few times in the theory forum)

Guitarists who do pitch to voltage often increase the gauge of their strings for a stiffer and therefore hopefully more intune response. You are going to have tuning issues regardless however those who have whammy bars will get it worse. It's all in the mechanics of how a string produces sound. When we pluck we are pulling the string out of tune. After the release it can take a cycle or two for the string to fall into it's vibration path. In an extreme case with whammy bars this is why strats are spanky sounding and tele's are jangly. The spanky is that Whoosh pull back from the springs and then into alignment as things settle (in micro seconds) If the pickup is catching This is why touch guitars (chapman sticks etc) sound more in tune then regular guitars. Because when you are tapping you don't pull the string out of tune(picking) to start the cycle.

I've been in a number of four and five cover piece bands with no keyboard player. Being the only midi based player in the group I'd pick up all the keys responsibilities. I'd try to avoid playing chordal type instruments like mad and when it was required that I do so... I'd reach for my DG-20. Even with all of it's faults like no velocity sensitivity and very floppy strings I knew I could count on it for an intune sound. Interest in the DG20 faded over the years and I'd lost it in a burglary. Eventually I picked another one up just for the novelty as I already had a ztar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qntqWk653ow

DG20's have the same vox/hagstrom/ concept of note identifiers/note off at/under the fret and use a spring pulling system for picking. No you won't be able to do bends. Yes it is a single midi channel out.

Without further adieu becase this thread needs more pics

[Uncle E]

Re the tuning, as outside spectator playing keys and watching guitarists work for decades, some of them are almost always in tune and rarely have to adjust the tuners. Am convinced that the better guitarists subconsciously micro adjust their finger pressure to play in tune even if the guitar isn't in exact adjustment, or if it has slid out of tune a bit, but not too far out for them to compensate.

Better players probably also play more and strings settle into pitch the more they're played. Personally, I bend a lot and rarely need to change my strings, thus they're very settled in.

After 27 years of playing, if I do micro adjust like you're suggesting, it's totally subconscious by this point.

[Uncle E]

Guitarists who do pitch to voltage often increase the gauge of their strings for a stiffer and therefore hopefully more intune response. You are going to have tuning issues regardless however those who have whammy bars will get it worse. It's all in the mechanics of how a string produces sound. When we pluck we are pulling the string out of tune. After the release it can take a cycle or two for the string to fall into it's vibration path. In an extreme case with whammy bars this is why strats are spanky sounding and tele's are jangly. The spanky is that Whoosh pull back from the springs and then into alignment as things settle (in micro seconds) If the pickup is catching This is why touch guitars (chapman sticks etc) sound more in tune then regular guitars. Because when you are tapping you don't pull the string out of tune(picking) to start the cycle.

The Evertune system can be set up in such a way that it corrects players' intonation problems. I wouldn't be surprised if it's also correcting that initial pitch thing you're talking about. Between my finger popping and flamenco rasgueados, I'm pretty hopeless in this regard. Fortunately, Albert Collins has taught me that everything's forgiven with a big vibrato.

[JCJR]

Yep some folks get tortured by even minor intonation problems. It doesn't torture me especially though would rather be in tune than not. Logged numerous hours in past years tuning e pianos, ac pianos, organs, synths and such.

Some is what one is used to. Equal tempered doesn't make "pure" chords, but I'm so used to equal tempered that various just tunings sound creepy and "not right". For instance the harmonic alignment of hammond drawbars is not as pure as an additive synth, but otoh a single note on a hammond sounds better to me than a purely in-tune single note with equivalent harmonic content generated by an additive synth.

Tapper, is it only the tendency of plucks to pull guitar strings out of tune that bothers you, or the actual sound of the transient pitch shift and string inharmonicity? The inharmonicity of bad strings on guitar or piano can be "too much for comfort" and some short pianos can be disturbing to play even tuned as good as it gets, but some of the pitch shift, false beat strings, and inharmonicity is essential to me to perceive "good tone".

Back in the 1980's nerded out on kawai k5 additive synth for awhile. Decent enough additive for what it was. I would sample instruments, fft them, send the harmonics to the k5. But that synth didn't have sufficient capabilities in fine control of individual harmonic pitch envelopes, and no facility at all for pitched or un pitched noise. Frustrating, because I could get close to the sustained timbre of guitar or piano, but without the warts of the real thing it was not far removed from the feel of playing an RMI cheeze piano. Maybe worse. Even the relaxation oscillators in RMI piano had significant pitch variations during decay, with the pitch envelope of each note different due to component variations.

Just saying, the warts seem rather important to avoid sterile sound.

[tapper mike]

When playing in front of crowds...I find beer really helps.

As for pitch correction processing. That's going to add latency a little or a lot but latency none the less.

Write this off as fanboy stuff if you like....

When I first unboxed my babyz I ran the midi out into...
This


I was in shock. "Did I do that? it was too fast." the timing was actually faster (hard to believe but true) then the actual buttons on the unit. The DR5 is fast with the buttons but one crappy little unit compared to anything post 95 hardware for midi.

So then I ran it into this-

Again totally amazed by how fast and great it sounded in comparison to roland stuff.
If you've played midi guitar as long and consistently as I have you develop nuances. You get a handle on playing slightly ahead of the beat you are striving for so it comes out on top as opposed to after the beat. With GR floor boxes the latency is consistent so you can plan for it. The more you do the more you accept it as the only way that playing midi guitar is. And then when it's right on top with that 1ms you actually have to rework your timing.

The first time I plugged it into the computer via midi out to the pb1 to a usb.midi cable it was terrible. Only to find out later it was my midi to usb cable was the source of the issue. My baby z has a faster playability in my hands then any guitar I own including my Parker which has ridiculously low action

[Zombie Queen]

Some people have less tolerance then others when it comes to intonation and temperament. Like...

True, some people have quite a temperament.
For me being somewhat out of tune here and there is what's cool in guitars. Too much perfection stinks.

[Hink]

Some people have less tolerance then others when it comes to intonation and temperament. Like...

True, some people have quite a temperament.
For me being somewhat out of tune here and there is what's cool in guitars. Too much perfection stinks.

[tapper mike]

Tapper, is it only the tendency of plucks to pull guitar strings out of tune that bothers you, or the actual sound of the transient pitch shift and string inharmonicity? The inharmonicity of bad strings on guitar or piano can be "too much for comfort" and some short pianos can be disturbing to play even tuned as good as it gets, but some of the pitch shift, false beat strings, and inharmonicity is essential to me to perceive "good tone".



Just saying, the warts seem rather important to avoid sterile sound.

Bothers me on a guitar...no because my ears have grown up with that type of character of the instrument. When that sound gets converted pitch to voltage and then voltage back to pitch especially with vibes, pianos, harpsichords that's when it aggravates the hell out of me. Morso when it's chordal work or when everything is intune behind the instrument and it's off sounding up front.

[PsYcHo SaMuRai]

I set my guitars up to get the best intonation I can then deal with it.
It bothers me more on acoustic pieces where I use alternate tunings and a partial capo. For now, I have a Martin DX-1 with K&K mini system I installed.
I've had a G&L S-500 Leo Fender signed guitar since around '91ish. I love it but lately, I've been using my own stuff or for bashing around on, I use a modded alder body/ rosewood FB MiM Strat that actually sounds pretty good with Vintage Noiseless p/u.



My nylon piezo


My current projects:
1st one is a mahogany/ flame maple body with hardware installed to check alignment. Second one is obviously just a blank alder body.

[hibidy]

Ooo, nice.

[Uncle E]

I've been using my own stuff or for bashing around on, I use a modded alder body/ rosewood FB MiM Strat that actually sounds pretty good with Vintage Noiseless p/u.

I love the Vintage Noiseless in the bridge of my strat. It sounds like Jeff Beck on Jools Holland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFlRVNHdeIQ