KVR Audio

itoa · Post by **itoa** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:06 am

Sorry about my possible ignorance,

I noticed Nord Lead A1 has ADR envelopes (works as ASR with D set to max). Could someone explain, why they use this type of EG in the context of sound design? It seems strange to me.. e.g. How can I program a sound with fast decaying transient like piano?
If I set D to 0.1 s the sound will decay to zero before I release the key...

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:14 am

Because they wanted to make it "simpler", for whatever reason.

itoa · Post by **itoa** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:19 am

I know, but how to use this for designing sounds... like I said if I set D to something short enough, R doesn't make any sense (it's like having sustain set to 0). Why not ADSD ? The same number of knobs.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon May 12, 2014 10:08 am

Well... I guess A1 is not for you then. (Or me. Lack of aftertouch on Nords is ridiculously stupid.)

itoa · Post by **itoa** » Mon May 12, 2014 10:35 am

Still hoping for an answer

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Mon May 12, 2014 11:15 am

The A1 has a switch so the last parameter can be the release time or the release level.
So it's the same found in the Minimoog or some softsynth like Diva.
It's easier to use and you can achieve the same results.

itoa · Post by **itoa** » Mon May 12, 2014 11:56 am

Oh! Thats something.

I think it doesn't work like ADS or ADSD env.
I've read the manual .. haven't found this, where is it?

http://newecho.typepad.com/images/Nord-lead4-vs-a1.jpg

(afaik "env vel" diode is for key velocity scaling)

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Mon May 12, 2014 12:16 pm

I see, it's not a switch.. the switch is for velocity.
Anyway, in the manual there is a description of the AMP envelope and a image which shows the details.

itoa · Post by **itoa** » Mon May 12, 2014 12:32 pm

Yes on the page 25. There is no switch or extra setting, as I said "The Amp amp env is a polyphonic ADR/ASR envelope".

So my question remains unanswered.

Why ADR/ASR instead of ADSD (used in many synths like some Moogs or Diva). What can I do with ADR?

Kurzleader · Post by **Kurzleader** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:36 pm

It isn't described in the user manual, but in the "update history" list, on firmware V1.12:

Amp and Mod envelope now climbs towards sustain level as the decay knob is turned upwards while holding a key.

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Mon May 12, 2014 5:11 pm

itoa wrote:Still hoping for an answer

You already got the correct answer: it's not for you. If you want to make a sound with 3 distinctive sections: attack (for example fast/semi-"clicky", hammer-like), sustain (for example at 70% of the attack's initial volume), and release, you need ADSR. The idiotic decision to omit this flexibility from the synth means you can't do that. That's it.

As for "what can I do with ADR?" - a lot, obviously, but not nearly as much as with ADSR. For example fast or "instant" attack, kind of slow decay, and fast but not very fast release, so your sound decays while a note is on, but once the note press/message is stopped, it decays (gets "released") faster. Nothing to be confused about.

As for "why ADR/ASR?" - because someone at Clavia is an idiot who thinks their customers are idiots who prefer to have their artistic freedom severely limited because they can't grasp one of the most basic concepts in a simple musical instrument. There is no other explanation. In an analog polyphonic synth, it might make sense technically (much simpler and cheaper to design), but not in a modern digital synth.

itoa · Post by **itoa** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:04 pm

Thanks, I don't actually want to buy this (so it's out of question for whom it is). I've been just curious... I like how they stripped down it's design, except ADR..

Especially that ADAD is a 3 knobs configuration as well..

Now I just can't believe they did it.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:47 pm

EvilDragon wrote:Well... I guess A1 is not for you then. (Or me. Lack of aftertouch on Nords is ridiculously stupid.)

I'm with you. I've listened to demos of the latest out of Clavia and while they seem to have nailed the synth engine part, they seem to be plagued with feature omissions one wouldn't expect from instruments in that price range. Note, the Nord Lead 4 does have adsr envs, but still Clavia seems to have turned their back on aftertouch. Even my NL2r responded to aftertouch via MIDI.

So if you really want the ADSR envs it's the NL4 for you... or you could get a Virus... Prophet 08... 12, Kingkorg... etc.

You'd have thought that Clavia learned it's lesson when releasing the crippled (IMO) Nord Drum. They were getting blown out for cheap pretty soon after their release. I hope the Nord Drum 2 is doing better. It's on my radar, that's for sure.

Do people look to Nord for a synth that cuts corners? I don't think so. People who really want a taste of the Nord sound at bargain prices need only to buy Discovery Pro. (yes, I know it's not totally the same) I sold my NL2r soon after the last Discovery Pro release and I'd be curious to hear it up against a NL4 or A1. Software has gotten so good these days that a VA/Hybrid hardware synth better have a nice feature set, kick ass sound engine and a good price to wake me up. Just being red doesn't cut it any more.

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Tue May 13, 2014 1:11 am

There is a reasonable explanation for the choice. It allows more flexibility than an AR envelope while having one less knob than the ADSR and being easier to understand for the average player than the ADSD. I really think that it's that simple. The ADR/ASR has one key attribute that is different from the ADSD envelope. All of the parameters are time parameters. If you don't think that this matters, try talking to keyboard players at your local guitar center for an afternoon and see how much they understand how to program a synthesizer.

I don't think that for many (most?) of Nord's customers plugins are an alternative. People buy nord leads to sit on top of their stage pianos and you can't really do that with a plugin.

Nord is clearly going after the keyboard player market. I suspect that given their vast success with stage pianos that a large portion of their customer base was asking for a variant of the Nord lead that is more straightforward. It's not like this has been any different ever. The big three stopped bothering with knobs in the 80s forcing the minority of players who knew what to do with them to buy a separate box, those boxes now often cost more than the synths.

When I bought my G1 you couldn't find Nord anything in your local shop, now they are all over the floor at GC. Their growth means that they have to move beyond the niche "synth nerd" market and I think that this sort of lead synth naturally follows the stage pianos.

If you're the typical keyboard player with a Nord stage piano and you're going to start jamming out a lead from your favorite preset then what you want are the controls that have the most impact on your sound in that setting. You probably don't give two shits about getting a piano sound on your lead, that's what your piano is for.

I don't think that it's fair to say that they think that their customers are "idiots", but the average keyboard player uses presets and just twiddles the knobs just a little bit. I would hope that they know their customer base, although, perhaps if they did, they never would have made the G1/G2.

itoa · Post by **itoa** » Tue May 13, 2014 4:09 am

As said above:

Update: "Amp and Mod envelope now climbs towards sustain level as the decay knob is turned upwards while holding a key."

Isn't this like: sorry we were wrong and we made a workaround?

Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?